I Need To Vent (Prop 8)

[Epsilon]

One step forward, two steps back. Why does it have to be this way?

Why the hell does anybody think that taking away human rights from other beings is ever a good thing? Fuck all you bastards who believe that gays do not have
the right to marriage. Fuck all you bigots.

-----------------

Epsilon

[Star Ranger4]

Like they really have a chance. I see the same supreme court that legalized it in the first place striking down Prop 8 as being unconstitutional on just those
grounds.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[rmthorn]

100% agreed. It boggles me that in this day and age there are so many people that feel strongly enough about it to get this proposition passed. In what
possible way does allowing Bill and Bob from down the road to get hitched affect any hetero marriages out there? I can't think of any.

[Rev Dark]

Marriage is a word. A loaded word. It is not consistently defined or used. A man and wife. A man and his wife (implying ownership.) A man and his many
wives. Many men and their wife. A christian man and his christian wife. A mormon man and his mormon wife.

You can get married in Vegas by an Elvis impersonator (You may now kiss the bride while I pop some pills and shit myself to death on this conveniently located
toilet) - don't pretend that the 'sanctity of marriage' is being somehow undercut by men marrying men and women marrying women. Divorce is rampant
among the faithful, so whatever imaginary friend that is responsible for the sanctity of marriage is clearly not doing his/her/its job (although current
statistics show divorce to be lowest among of all groups - atheists.) Sanctity of Marriage my hairy Canadian arse. The sanctity of marriage used to be paying
the daddy when you rape the daughter and then marrying her. It used to be owning your wife as you might any other piece of property. It used to include
marital rape, condoned under the 'sanctity of marriage.'

Sanctity of marriage - fuck you in the neck motherfuckers. What do know! Oedipus, great example of sanctity of marriage, and don't get me started on the
myth of Lot either - great fucking example of the sanctity of marriage. Here rape my wife instead of my guests. Don't worry, when she gets extra salty,
I'll just get drunk and fuck my daughters.

What is truly sad is that the fucktards in question are using the same tired arguments that were used against inter-racial marriage. Biblical arguments.
Leviticus, with a little Saul of Tarsus mixed in for that uncomfortable taken from behind without the common courtesy of a reach-around feeling. You want to
quote fucking Leviticus, you better be fucking prepared to give up shrimp and comply with all the other primative bumwipery contained in that bronze age
barbarism.

Now I know what the fear-mongering fuckstains out there are going to say. "That means you can marry a horse." Roy Rogers never married Trigger, but
did ride him (and have him stuffed.) It is that whole consenting adult thing. You find a horse that can, in no uncertain terms, agree clearly and concisely
to a sexual encounter - or marriage - then feel free to get your thing on. Until then. Fuck off. (I will leave off the obvious joke that horses are prudes
as they are more likely to say Neigh.)

[Star Ranger4]

Geez Rev.... Dont hold back on us here!!!!
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[M Fnord]

Speaking of religious idiots getting fucked: http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/

I Endorse This Product And/Or Service.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Morganite]

Yeah, I'm not sure quite *that* much cursing is required, since I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone here who doesn't agree that this
particular event is stupid. (At least, no one showed up the last time.)

... But then, I do my venting by mowing down hundreds of chinese soldiers, so I don't
know. Maybe it is required.

I heard a news story on Prop 8 a few weeks ago, where someone they talked to said something to the effect that if same-sex marriage is legal, what's to
stop pedophilia or bestiality being justified based on claiming love. Has no one explained the concept of consent to these people? If you're going to make
slippery slope arguments, at least make sure the ground is sloping in the appropriate direction before trying to convince people it's slippery. I'm
sure there's much more reasonable arguments of that form that could be made here. (I'd still think they're *wrong*, but probably not out-and-out
*crazy*.)

-Morgan.

[robkelk]

and don't get me started on the myth of Lot either - great fucking example of the sanctity of marriage. Here rape my wife instead of my guests. Don't worry, when she gets extra salty, I'll just get drunk and fuck my daughters.

Actually, they got him drunk and raped him, not the other way around... http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/19.html#30](Genesis 19:30-36, annotated) Still not the right thing to do, but at least this one wasn't his fault.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rev Dark]

Sure they did... Remember, this is Lot, who was willing to hand over his daughterswife to be humped by the mob rather than his male guests. His track
record in regards to the treatment of women was not great. "Now be quiet sweeties and if anyone asks, you got me drunk."

And Eve ate the apple first.

Remember who wrote the bible. (Big hints here, it is myth, it was not written by god.)

[Murmur the Fallen]

It's been speculated here in good ol' California that the huge voter turn-out was what killed Prop 8; that many of the new voters who voted for
Obama in fact voted against Prop 8, particularly African-American voters whose churches called for turning down California's legalization of homosexual
marriage.

On the other hand, Prop 4, the parental notification of teenage pregnancy 48 hours before an abortion, was rejected.

-murmur

[Fidoohki]

I have a problem with Homosexual marriage.. but I have the same problem with

hetrosexual marriage. 'Marriage' denote a religious cerimony of some form.

Having the goverment mandate how and who religion performs those cerimonies

for crosses a line with me. Seperation of church and state should be just that.

To me the moment you get the license to marry. you are legally married. Anything after

that is for your consience and beleifs.

[Ayiekie]

Marriage is not a religious ceremony. Marriages are performed all the time in the United States right now without any religious body being involved (how do you
think atheists get married, for one?). The government will not ever mandate that any church has to marry same-sex couples. Some churches ALREADY WILL marry
same-sex couples.

As for Prop 8, I have slightly mixed feelings, because the No (pro-SS-marriage) side did a horrible campaign that was painful to be associated with. That being
said, regardless of how bad the campaign is, I find it hard to have anything but the greatest contempt for any bigot who opposes it. That being said...

This is a fairly thoughtful article on the subject.

[Black Aeronaut]

.... *Grumble-fuck-mutter*
Okay, incase no one here knew, I'm a Latter-Day Saint, aka a Mormon. I'm not the best example of what it means to be Christ-like, but then, who is? Even the Prophet himself will say that he's not perfect, because if he was then he wouldn't even be here right now.
That said, some of the things my Church does bugs the crap outta me. The whole thing with voting as a bloc for example. Seriously, that's not following Christ's example. While he certainly wanted everyone to follow the teachings of the gospel he wasn't out to cause revolution. He himself said "Render what is Ceaser's unto Ceasar..." Rome itself didn't want to crucify Christ - the Jews called for it because they thought he was a blasphemer and popular opinion won out in the end, even when given the choice between two evils.
Also, supposedly we have this big thing about Free Agency and it being the root of the war between God and his son, Lucifer. By the LDS view, Lucifer's plan was to have everyone's life decided for them so they wouldn't have to make choices for themselves and potentially make painful mistakes. Okay, so while Prop 8 won't neccesarily force people to not be homosexuals, I still see it as a step towards Satan's POV and his desire for everyone to be miserable.
However, we shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath here. For one thing, the LDS Church has the single largest geneological database in the entire world and it is free for everyone to use. No matter what website you may go through, chances are pretty damn good they're getting all, if not most, of their data from LDS geneological databases to help you find your family history. Another interesting thing to note is that unlike any other church out there, ours is not a burden on the economy. All properties are bought without taking out bank loans. We even provide our own welfare services so that when our members hit upon hard times they won't be entirely dependent on the government's welfare system. Yes, that especially includes food. We have something called Bishop's Storehouses and it's nothing to sneer at. They tend to move stuff by the truckload. I know as my family has been at the receiving end of such deliveries on a weekly basis before.
So please don't talk about imposing a tax on my church. Aside from voting as a bloc, we're a religeon that's given the government the least amount of trouble these days. If you want to do something, talk to your local LDS members about it. Some may actually be asses, but most are decent enough to hear you out and discuss the matter.  Not only do we encourage our members to be civil and friendly with others, but we also encourage our members to question their faith.  Yes, you read that correctly.  We do encourage independant thought.

[Ayiekie]

FWIW, I've never met a Mormon I didn't like (and I will caveat that by saying they have mostly been missionaries, of course, though I've spoken
with them in non-proselytising settings). I don't agree with many of their common political positions or believe in what they do, but they have seemed to
largely be very nice, decent people with a habit of actually practicing what they preach. I wish I could say the same of other denominations, and I do not
really understand why so many Americans are hysterical about them.

[Rev Dark]

I do.

I shall qualify that statement in adding that I find other religous cults (all relgions are at their heart cults) just as, or in some cases more concerning
than the Mormons.

As individuals, they are as nice as any other group I have encountered. Blackaeronaut, I am taking some pretty hard shots here, please try not to take it
personally, as I am making every attempt to speak to the church as a group rather than individuals like yourself.

Taken as a whole they are troublesome, delusional and dangerous. The various schisms run from moderately benign to out and out bug fuck nuts.

Now Blackaeronaut, you have mentioned several excellent works undertaken on behalf of the Mormon church. These are laudable, but have no bearing on the
truth of the Mormon faith. They are acts that can be carried out by people of faith or people without faith. And are. The geneological database is a lovely
resource. A shame that it is tied to the ingenious, if downright ugly doctrime of baptising the deceased (in pushing-up-the-daisies abstentia) into the faith
- by proxy. Often against the previously stated wishes of the deceased. Adding the Jewish (and other) victims of the holocaust to the rolls of the baptized.
That is just fucking tasteless, yet the LDS did just that, and as recently as the last decade has come under fire, again, for the practice. You should also
note that the church is very firm in kicking out those that do not toe the line, often with disastrous results to them in the business, social and family
circles.

Do you truly believe that Satan and all his impish homunculi are in battle with the Mormon version of god? Are you looking forward to becoming as a god
yourself? Do you truly believe that men having sex with men, or women having sex with women, causes Satan to grin ear to ear. When I visited Orem a few years
back, I marvelled at the porn available in all the video stores (in the nice family oriented malls.) Satan is not the only one who enjoyes hot girl on girl
action in Orem.

Do you believe that Joseph Smith did recieve and translate the Book of Mormon? Or was he just another huckster of the many that emerged from the burnt over
district? (The history of charlatans and hucksters from that region is very well documented.) I will take this opportunity to note that there is nothing in
the archaeological record whatsover that supports the insultingly obvious fiction that makes up stories contained therein. If civilizations of the nature
decribed in the book of Mormon existed on the North American continent, there would be obvious, undisputable, artifacts. These artifacts would be legion. It
would be part of the oral tradition of most if not all the native people. The evidence for the civilizations in the book of Mormon is the same as the evidence
for the global flood of Noah. Not there at all.

I don't roll into churches and take the members to task on their faiths - in the same way that I do not go into anime/fantasy/star trek coventions and
rip on the more outrageous spectacles there - or go into S&M parties and tease the doms and the gimps. These are all people who are enjoying time with
their favorite fantasy, and as such, rock on. Yet the Mormons (among other charismatic faiths) see fit to do just that. On my property. That is just
impolite. So much for being nice as a group.

American law is very specific about the separation of Church and State and the rules governing religous interference by the Church. Any church. If the
Mormon Church in going after Prop 08 - used church resources, then they should be stripped of their tax exempt status. Period. That goes for any church of
any denomination.

I was pleased to read of your discomfort with voting blocks. One quick question. Satan wants, by your admission, to have everyone's life decided for
them. Is the church, in asking for the faithful to support voting blocks, supporting the position of the Mormon God or the Mormon Satan?

Cheers,

Shayne

[Morganite]

I do not really understand why so many Americans are hysterical about them.

I suspect this is a big part of it. Sure, it's not practiced by the mainstream church, but it's pretty spectacular nonetheless. And it makes a dramatic plot for cop shows.

Personally, I'm far more bothered by the missionary thing, which *is* a mainstream practice. Though as long as they do not demur when shown the door, I suppose it's not a major practical problem.

-Morgan.

[Ayiekie]

Yes, but the polygamy thing is frankly overblown. I don't judge all Baptists by the Westboro Baptist church.

And I have absolutely no problems with missionaries provided they respect the rights of the people they are attempting to convert. It is a free country (mine
and yours).

[Morganite]

It shouldn't come as a surprise that what's spectacular and makes dramatic plots for cop shows isn't representative of the majority. '.'

On the other hand, I find all such proselytization dubious and/or offensive, but again it's not a big deal as long as people leave you alone when asked to.

-Morgan.

[Fidoohki]

Marraige DENOTES a religious cerimony. Doesn't mean it is. It is the perception of it.

Personally I don't see the problem if the Civil unions in the state are the same as

marriages.

[khagler]

I'm pretty unhappy about 8 too (I live in California), but that's what democracy is all about: a tyrannical majority oppressing a despised minority.
These bigoted marriage laws were always going to take a US Supreme Court decision to finally get rid of, the same way it took a Supreme Court decision to put a
stop to laws against interracial marriage.

I wasn't aware until after the election that the Mormon Church was such a big backer of the proposition. The irony, given the Mormon's historical
belief that a marriage is between a man and a woman--or two women, or three women, etc.--is pretty thick. Unfortunately America has a strong tradition, going
back to the Puritans, of persecuted minorities turning around and persecuting others for the same sort of thing they themselves were persecuted over.

Personally, I hope that when this finally makes it to the Supreme Court, the decision is to over turn _all_ government laws restricting who can be married, how
many people they can be married to, and what the sex of those people might be.

[robkelk]

Personally, I hope that when this finally makes it to the Supreme Court, the decision is to over turn _all_ government laws restricting who can be married, how many people they can be married to, and what the sex of those people might be.

I hope they don't go that far. "Informed consent" is important in marriage, unless you really see nothing wrong with (I'm specifically not including genders in this example) a 20-year-old marrying a 6-year-old...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[khagler]

Huh? I said that I want government restrictions on marriage overturned, not laws against rape...

[robkelk]

Sorry... When you said "_all_ government laws restricting who can be married", emphasizing the "all", I thought you meant all government
laws including the age-related ones. Glad to learn I was mistaken.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

Rev, I just say that Satan's out to make everyone as miserable as he is through whatever means necessary. If someone is genuinely happy having a same-sex
partner, then good on them.

Baptism for the Dead... There's a loaded topic if there ever was one, and one that I was hoping wouldn't get brought up. I feel that its something that
should be left up to the families of the departed and no further. If anything else, you could say that all it does is provide comfort for these families and
simply leave it at that.

As for the BoM... Just because you don't see any 'traces' of this 'society' doesn't mean that it existed or that it never migrated. One
of the classic examples are the lake and river named for the prophet, Lehi's two eldest sons, Lamen and Lemuel. Look it up sometime. As for the society
that existed in what became America? Well, according to the book, there was a war so great that all the followers of the faith were killed off. So where's
the remains, you ask? Heh. Funny you should ask that when you got these cultures like the Incans and the Mayans that were every bit as hethenistic and
bloodthirsty as the people that killed off everyone else in the BoM. You see, it's not the first time, nor the last, that one culture has tried to erase
another from the historical record simple because they didn't like the poor saps.

Yet the Mormons (among other charismatic faiths) see fit to do just that. On my property. That is just impolite. So much for being nice as a group.

What, you mean the missionaries don't leave your house when you ask them to?

But seriously, I don't believe that we should be supporting voting blocks like that - I don't. We should beasking people to think for themselves and,
forgive me for this cliche, ask ourselves what would Jesus do.

[M Fnord]

Just because you don't see any 'traces' of this 'society' doesn't mean that it existed or that it never migrated.

It... kinda does though.

The society portrayed in the Book of Mormon is a fully-fledged Iron Age West Asian civilization, complete with metalworking, livestock, grains common to that era and that place, etc. If they landed in America, and they lasted as long as the book says - between 1,000 and 3,000 years, depending - even if they were all wiped out in some hideous act of genocide traces would remain; the livestock would go feral & be redomesticated, the grains would spread in the wild, the places where they mined metal would be obvious... you get the idea.

There is no evidence that an Iron Age culture landed on American shores any earlier than the eleventh century CE, and there's equally no evidence that there was a long-term colonization effort any time before Columbus. All the archaeological evidence from between 30,000 BCE and 1492 is all strictly Stone Age, none of it suggests any non-native animals like horses, cattle or pigs appearing before the Europeans, no sign of metalworking or wheeled vehicles... the evidence is just not there. There are remnants of a dozen different First Nations cultures that lived and died well before contact, and not so much as a single scrap of iron or bronze from the Nephites or Lamanites.

Nothing.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"