drogan niteflier Wrote:So, Ayiekie, tell me. If you were to have your way, and you got rid of the American military, where would you put all that money? 'Cause from what I can see, the only place it could possibly go would be straight to welfare, since that's where at least half of the current military members would go. The current American economy is bad enough. The influx of almost a million people (NOT counting contractors, companies that contract with the military, or, really, ANYONE with ANY connection to the military) suddenly made jobless into an economy that already doesn't have enough 'jobs' for people would wreck it completely.Um, yeah, let's see here:
1) I never said get rid of the American military. I said reduce it to a rational size rather than pay as much on the military as the rest of the world put together. The fact you think that's some sort of crrr~~~~azy idea is kind of interesting.
2) While the US economy would indeed take a hit from this (in the extremely hypothetical scenario that it could happen before America's economy collapses to the point where it simply can't afford to be an empire any more, ala every other empire of the past that didn't collapse from external invasion), it would be much stronger in the long run for it. Military expenditures are a money pit that gives no return unless you conquer other people and take their stuff with it, and that's inherently diminishing returns (since you need an ever-bigger military to keep hold of that stuff, necessitating conquering even more people, meaning you need an even bigger army, et cetera). The amount of savings from the very modest "halve the spending on the military, thus saving 10% of the US GDP" suggestion (which would still leave the US with far and away the world's largest military) would be more than sufficient to pay every single released serviceman for the rest of their life and have quite a bit left over. That's about one and a half trillion dollars per year, for the record, that would be saved by cutting to the point where the US only spends as much as HALF the rest of the world put together. That amount of money saved would also pay off the entire US debt (not just the deficit) in ten years - so all these conservatives who care soooooo much about the debt should be all for it, right?
3) Reducing the military and overseas commitments would also, needless to say, improve the US image in the world considerably and reduce Islamic terrorism, since most Islamic terrorism against the US stems from the fact that the US keeps invading/bombing/kidnapping people from/having military bases on Muslim countries. Everyone wins!
4) It's actually the right thing to do and will be better for everyone in the long run, because no good comes of having a superpower empire push the rest of the world around. This is not unique to America - Britain was just as bad. It will also happen eventually whether you like it or not, so why not push for America to choose to reduce its military before it is forced to?
Quote:You keep saying that the American military is *evil*, but do you realize that almost all the *evil* decisions you keep whining about were made by ivory tower thinkers like you? The guy-on-the-ground like BA and I used to be, the guys that you want to make jobless and homeless, don't get a say in what city they have to bomb, what men they are told to kill, what prisoners they have to guard. And before you say that the guy-on-the-ground can disobey those orders, let me tell you, that is a straight, one way ticket to Fort Leavenworth, do not pass go, do not have any chance for parole.First, by talking on the internets, I'm about as much an "ivory-tower thinker" as you. Exactly as much, in fact.
Second, "ivory-tower thinkers" that inspire your comment like Henry Kissinger decidedly do not share my views, so I'm not even sure why you're trying to compare me to them, particularly since they're by your own admission the ones responsible for the exact things I just pointed out as evil.
Third, do not seriously give me the "I had no choice" excuse. You had a choice. You chose to join the US military. You chose to stay in the military. It is not as if it was not possible to find out what the US military does. So you had that choice. As well, soldiers in the US military are required by law to disobey unlawful orders. "This was illegal but I was just following orders" is a defence that very famously didn't work at Nuremburg and does not excuse US servicemen either. You want to (and presumably will) argue that the aggressive invasion of a foreign state was not illegal, or that taking part in an invasion that massacred directly and indirectly so many innocent people and dragged off more to torture prisons was not illegal, go for it. But don't whine that you were just following orders and had no say. You had a say. You chose not to exercise it. That is your responsibility, and the responsibility of every other man and woman that served in the US military.
Fourth, I didn't say the US military was inherently evil. The invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the bombings of Pakistan, Yemen and Libya, are evil. This is not an "I HAT AMERIKA" thing. This is an "I HAT KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE" thing. You are the bad guys because you are doing that. Not because of who you are, but because of what you do. Stop doing it and you'll stop being the bad guys.
Quote:You say that America is *evil*. You haven't given any justification as to *why*. Yes, some of the people in charge make decisions that look to be stupid, thoughtless, or outright evil. Why do you keep blaming the common citizen?I did indeed give a justification as to why. "you can't comprehend that you have done far more wrong to the people in either of those countries than the entire Muslim world combined has ever done to America." Why are Islamic terrorists "evil"? Oh right, because they kill innocent people to obtain their goals and don't care. Well, let me drop this shocker on you: that's still evil even when America does it. Second, try not ignoring the fact I didn't "blame the common citizen", but in fact simply pointed out that the US, as an aggressive invading foreign state, is the "bad guy" in all the various countries they're currently invading or bombing (does anybody else realise how fucked up it is that it's a normal, everyday thing that the US is occupying and/or bombing no less than five foreign countries at once?). But if you want to play, sure. Why doesn't the common citizen of the US share some blame for their country's actions? Do they not live in a democracy? Do they not vote for their representatives on a local, state and federal level? Did they not reelect George Bush? Are there not anti-war candidates for government in the US? Why are they not riding massive waves of popular support into office?
Oh yes, you can argue with some validity that, for instance, current public opinion is against the Libya war, but even aside from the fact this has very little to do with the morality of that war, this simply underscores that public opinion was very much for both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for years, and that public opinion also supported the lack of any accountability for the perpetrators of those wars, the worldwide torture regime, et cetera. Why does the common citizen NOT bear any responsibility for that? You don't live in a dictatorship, no matter what Obama (or Bush before him) thinks. Every US citizen has both the ability and, arguably, the civic duty to make an impact on the political process.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right ; and if wrong, to be set right."