Right, arm's bared...

[LynnInDenver]

Yep. Someone might have brought that up if they hadn't gotten to the large-scale failure modes first, and then the conversation moved on to something else. Still think it's not necessarily a bad idea in principle, but I don't know if there's any good way to make it work.

It will remain a thorny issue until mental health is no longer stigmatized... and we have a much better handle on what constitutes "functional in society" and "you need to be limited for everyone's sake".

I thought it was "Never point it at anyone you aren't willing to kill."

I've heard that one... usually coupled as #2 to the "it's ALWAYS loaded". The always loaded is certainly specific to gun handling assumptions.

I'm led to believe it's a bit more involved than that. Apparently, any individual shot actually has a pretty high chance of not hitting anything immediately critical, and particularly with small calibers* shock alone will not do the job without more hits. The type of ammunition used makes a major difference too.

*I'm led to believe .22 caliber is very popular with people who enjoy target shooting, due to the extremely low cost of ammunition and the only mild recoil. But the same things that lead to those traits make it not all that great for stopping an assailant.

Odds are anyone buying a gun for "self defense" is buying something other than a .22 anyway. But every round you put "downrange" has to go somewhere if it misses the target.

Does that even count as self defense? '.'

It does in terms of avoiding having to test the "actual situation". Self defense isn't always about how you respond in the moment... or, in other words, never start a fight, which does include avoiding situations where you might have to finish one.

Sound like the kind of people who shouldn't have guns. ^.- But I think that sort of person is in the minority.

I'm also not friends with that sort these days anyway. They tend to come with other baggage.

I too generally consider it a waste of time (among other things) to make someone who doesn't want a gun own one. I'm not certain, but I think when I first heard about the place (a few years ago or so), they mentioned some people there who, having no desire to have a gun, kept it locked away on an essentially permanent basis. That doesn't do anything useful for anyone. Still, they provide a valuable example case.

I don't want to own a gun right now, mostly because I live in an apartment complex, renting, so other people are considered to have access to my living space. So I have a significant requirement to really be sure the guns are absolutely secure (combination locked SAFE, for instance). Plus, I'd probably need to make sure that the apartment management does KNOW I have a gun, and that does prevent "security by obscurity".

I do think a certain amount of universal *training* would be a good idea though.

A training requirement would do wonders for a lot of this, definitely.

I don't know. I've seen some statistics related to those things, but they've all been about CCP holders, who generally have had to meet a somewhat more stringent set of requirements. None for the set of gun owners who don't have such a permit.

I expect that the numbers would be telling in terms of the number of criminals that get more guns... although I also expect that some of those numbers would actually be low. Usually, if you want a gun for self defense, and want to be legal about it, you'd want to get a CCP anyway.

Of course, if someone has a gun handy enough to pull out when they're in an alley, they might themselves be committing a crime if they don't have some kind of permit or other... laws seem to vary wildly on the point.

And even with a permit, there's going to be a serious criminal inquiry again... not to mention the "excessive force/wrongful death" lawsuit that would occur, even if it was in defense against a violent crime.

Training is one thing we definitely agree on.

Very much. I've heard of a lot of incidents over the years that would probably have been averted with training. Including significant incidents of self-injury, like failing to automatically assume that the gun is ALWAYS loaded.
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"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor