Macross SEED

[Valles]

Forgot to do this...

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Do we want to keep this? I'm getting a general vibe of "not really", but I'd like to confirm it. If Earth -is- capable of putting up a fight, it might interest certain Zentraedi commanders...

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No, that's changing a bit. My suggestion is that we have Joukahainen make the fairly common-sensical connection that the key to rebuilding things might be something to do with the planet, and that, if so, studying the rebuilt ship would only be a first step towards arresting the Zentreadi's loss of resources.
Another possible factor here is that the EDTO is made up of a trio of military superpowers who were, less than a decade ago, fighting World War Fucking Three. With a possible alien threat on their horizon, how likely do you really think it'd be that the Pan-Asians, in particular, would do more than relax their rationing? The fleets, the warplanes, the legions upon legions of armor and infantry gear... that's all still there, and not just there, but being added to and improved. The industry that built them is still going full-bore. People have relaxed, the private sector has returned, yeah, sure, but for all they know this might just be the eye of the hurricane - and you can be that they, and their leaders, are well aware of that.
In light of all that, I imagine that even if the Zentreadi are properly certain that they could take Earth at will, they're also aware that so doing wouldn't be at all cheap. In which case, it's probably better to focus on the SDF-1 than go storming the hornet's nest unless you absolutely have to - remember, the Puppet Fleet is still out there, and they can't replace their losses.
Ja, -n
===========

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"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[drakensis]

So the commander should be italian? Sorry, I've seen as much robotech as macross. Easily amended though.
It occurs to me that there's probably not enough hydrogen aboard to get halfway across the solar system on thrusters (so skimming off gas giants is anecessary precursor) - missions out this far usually have tanker support (or in the Zentreadi's case, fold there directly).
From what I've heard about the main gun it's sounding a bit like a core tap (the thing Dahak runs off of). A deliberately uncontrolled core tap. So it's probable that the gun, when secured, acts as a power source for the fold drive and is brought on line very carefully. This turns the notion of activating a fold drive in an atmoshpere less of a navigation hazard (plenty of other reasons for a misjump) and more of a 'if this goes wrong, god's personal tsunami will wipe out the entire pacific rim'.
So the opening up of the prow to use the gun would be part of the original design of the SDF-1 and the same as that on the rest of the zentradi fleet. After being rebuilt, the SDF-1 had a nice carrier flight deck out front, because the engineers thought that the core tap was just a power source. Then the SDF-1 fired it's opening shot to the war, and naturally blew it's own nose off in the process. Thus the grafting of ships onto the nose when they were putting it back together to head for earth.
For transformation, how about the two halves of the prow (jointed aft of the attached vessels for elbows) become the arms, with the tip of the main gun as the head - if we went away from the tuning fork idea to make it smaller.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

I don't know about "should" be Italian; just pointing it out, 'sall. After all, you already have the Japanese cast members (Hikaru and Misa) becoming Mexican and American respectively, so what's a little more tweaking?
And it wasn't so much the atmosphere, really, as it was--to throw Dahak right back atcha--activating a small Enchanach-style gravity-warping drive inside a planetary gravity well that screwed things up. (In Global/Gloval's defense, he reasoned that it'd be best to turn it on at the spot where they'd gotten all their test data. Oh well.)
--Sam
"I refuse to accept criticism from someone who's hiding under a table."

[Valles]

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On spinal-mount BFGs--it might be entertaining to copy the Tuning Fork Gun (Reflex or Reaction Cannon) design all the way down to mecha- and man-portable beam weapons.

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When you're right, you're right. I had actually thought that it might be partly that the mass saved by not enclosing the generator rails doesn't become significant until you get to some pretty big scales, but the visual continiuity is too cool to pass up.

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The Precursors: Civilization One? (Civ 1 for short, making the Others Civ 2, et cetera... ) Or perhaps Culture One... Culture Prime... Come to think of it, it'd be likely that Terrans and Zentradi would use different names for 'em--the Zents might call them the Commanders, or the Great Race (not riffing on Lovecraft here, but rather on F.M. Busby).

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Hm. Well, I'd guess that the terran name for them would probably be either straight out of the Dakkin handbook or in honor of the scientist who first found worthwhile evidence of their existence.
The Zentradi? Well, I'd guess that they'd use either 'The Makers' or 'The Gods'. Earth wouldn't have had the data to theorize about the Others until after they'd made sustained contact with the Zentradi, so that's probably the only name they've got.

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I definitely like the more streamlined look you've got going for the SDF-1 in some of those pictures, though I have to wonder how the add-ons will fit in and where they'd go on it.(And which we'd keep of the three currently proposed -- carrier, battleship, and ARMD).

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Well, since we're evidently not using the 2001-as-ARMD idea, I'd guess that that's what those three outriggers were.
Using a battleship instead of the Deadalus makes excellent sense, especially since it'd be the best reenforced of the possibilities. On the other hand, using either of the surface ships presents the problem of scale - even if the SDF-1's sister ships were only built to be as big, relative to their crews as a Nimitz class (which I'd call the minimum for their proposed role as command ships/elite cruisers), then we still end up talking about something the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer, which'd make those outriggers, what, five hundred meters?
That's a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig twinkie.

BTW, those ships were rather close to the sort of style I'd been thinking of for the native-built ships before I started sketching the SDF-1's outriggers.

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Oh, and while we're on the subject, let's make the new Lap'Lamiz counterpart look like Megatokyo 2040's Sylia, just for giggles. Classic Lap'Lamiz

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Silver-haired space babes! Yeah!
*koffkoff* Er, I heartily agree.

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I don't know about "should" be Italian; just pointing it out, 'sall. After all, you already have the Japanese cast members (Hikaru and Misa) becoming Mexican and American respectively, so what's a little more tweaking?

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I'd keep him as a Russian - remember, assigning crew members for this thing is going to be political as all hell, and Manfred and Lydia are OTO to the core, while Kamaria's a representative of the Neutrals. One way or another, that kind of crew balance is going to require a concession to the Pan-Asians, and the top slot would work well.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Valles]

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It occurs to me that there's probably not enough hydrogen aboard to get halfway across the solar system on thrusters (so skimming off gas giants is anecessary precursor) - missions out this far usually have tanker support (or in the Zentreadi's case, fold there directly).

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I'd expect them to use water, actually. It's not as obscenely common as hydrogen, but it is still enough so to be easy to find anywhere outside the orbit of Venus, it's easier to store and handle (ie, the molecules are too big to filter through things), and most of all, it's a lot denser - so you don't need to spend near the same amount of tank material to store a given amount.
Anyway, for the tanker thing - my thought had been that, while tanker ships were indeed a part of any long-range mission (for the Zentradi too, actually. Folds are literally instantaneous, and fighting has to be done in real space and time), the EDTO had planned ahead and installed fueling stations across the system to ease future operations. (IIRC, Luna is actually the only major moon in the solar system that isn't at least half water ice.)
The difficulty for the SDF-1 would be in actually getting to that base - I figure that they'd want to launch with as little mass aboard as possible, which'd mean that, beside having their magazines mostly empty and only those fighters and desdroids that were both present on Tinian and sealed against vacuum, by the time they folded they'd have had maybe a sip and some fumes left in the tanks - maybe enough to maneuver between moons, maybe not.
And, of course, a fueling station might well have defenses, even if it's completely automated.
Erm, that's it for now, I think.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[ECSNorway]

Hm.
Actually, the Discovery/Leonov look might be what the converted submarines end up looking like. Trim them out a bit, expand the hull and add an outrigger or two for the phased-array radars and a few particle-beam cannons...
Hm. I wonder where I left my TrueSpace install disk...--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[classicdrogn]

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even if the SDF-1's sister ships were only built to be as big, relative to their crews as a Nimitz class (which I'd call the minimum for their proposed role as command ships/elite cruisers), then we still end up talking about something the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer, which'd make those outriggers, what, five hundred meters?
That's a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig twinkie.

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Hm... A quick webdive says CVN-99 Asuka II from Macross Zero was half that, but if the three ships in question were also new-build, the first 100% terran hulls to have been designed around use of the SIF system it would still be workable, I think.
Oddly enoguh, I was thinking the sides of the main gun looked like they wanted Star Destroyer type detailing, you know kind of a beltline trench with lots of little gubbins and lights.

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Silver-haired space babes! Yeah!

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I see that you too suffer from that dread condition known as The Curse of the Space Hotties. Or, not exactly suffer perhaps, but experience.
I'd forgotten your mention of the beam-and-pod ships as being meant to be the new ARMORs - I think the suggestion that the refit subs end up like that is probably worthwhile, though. They wouldn't have provision for spin or blackbox gravity generators, so a ring section where the crew can work out to prevent microgravity health problems would be neccessary, and when you're already adding that much to the structure you might as well stick the overtechnology powerplant and engines out on the end of a shaft, well away from the normally inhabited sections of the ship.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Valles]

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Hm... A quick webdive says CVN-99 Asuka II from Macross Zero was half that, but if the three ships in question were also new-build, the first 100% terran hulls to have been designed around use of the SIF system it would still be workable, I think.

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SIF surface ships? Well, sea-naval, anyway?
Hmm. And, if these ships are that new then they won't have been primarily designed to fight other naval units - there're plenty of older designs that can handle that.
Which means that, besides allowing justification for the existance of submersible naval vessels too noisy to hide, we have a reason to give the Inflexible four beam guns rather than however many ordinary cannon. Which, y'know, wouldn't be much good at the usual space combat ranges.
Actually, five hundred meters isn't that out of possibility even now - the Nimitz class is just about exactly a third of a kilometer, if I remember the day's researches correctly.
Or, ooh, I have an idea - if each arm takes two ships, we have elbows. ^_^

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Oddly enoguh, I was thinking the sides of the main gun looked like they wanted Star Destroyer type detailing, you know kind of a beltline trench with lots of little gubbins and lights.

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Mmm. I had wanted to keep those long clean stretches of hull, and leave the greeblies to the minimum needed to help provide a sense of scale - besides being infinitely easier to model or animate, it'd provide a nice contrast to the relatively awkward and festooned task force bolted on alongside.

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I'd forgotten your mention of the beam-and-pod ships as being meant to be the new ARMORs - I think the suggestion that the refit subs end up like that is probably worthwhile, though. They wouldn't have provision for spin or blackbox gravity generators, so a ring section where the crew can work out to prevent microgravity health problems would be neccessary, and when you're already adding that much to the structure you might as well stick the overtechnology powerplant and engines out on the end of a shaft, well away from the normally inhabited sections of the ship.

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And a third vote for the proposal here. Motion carries?
I had been thinking of the gravity generators as something that the EDTO hadn't yet been able to duplicate, actually - among other reasons, because it would give me an excuse to avoid even the question of the 'just like on Earth, only with vacuum!' approach we see represented in most of canon Macross, which is Stupid.
Inertia works, dammit! Orbital mechanics is a reoccuring plot point! Ships don't fly they, accelerate!
*sniffs*
On the other hand, at the same time I'm saying this, there's a large part of my brain explaining to the rest exactly how and why it can be justified to use the really cool idea of making melee weapons the Zentradi's main ship-killing tool. Why, well...
I was sketching out some concepts for the Zentran and Meltran armors, and I noticed that external weapons systems basically required the violation of the 'center of thrust behind center of mass' principle, unless you wanted to start hanging supplementary thrusters off the gun itself.
Incidentally, Zentradi beam guns keep ending up looking like Covenant plasma rifles.
Anyway, I was willing to do that for one or two of them, but I wanted the Zentrans and Meltrans to have distinctively different weapons and armarment styles. If I gave the Meltrans the heavy rifle-type weapon (which did indeed have booster thrusters), then I'd have to leave the Zentran suits (which are heavier and bulkier and slower and actually have something that can pretend to be real armor) with these pistol/wrist blaster things. Which, y'know, are fine in their place, but lack a certain punch.
So, if the entire point of having Zentradi is that their physical power makes them a natural match for war machines, doesn't that mean that they're at least partly intended to fight in close quarters?
So I hung a pair of diver's knives off the Metran suit and started trying to figure out how to balance a sword sheath on the Zentran one in a way that the clumsy thing could actually reach.
And, having just thought of this while I was typing, I might well go back and move the massive fire-support cannon to the Zentran side and leave them two weapons and give the Meltrans a single, more flexible carbine-sized thing.
Because I like the idea of the Terrans and the Zentradi having distinctly different armarment styles, and we know that the EDTO is big on missiles, and slugthrowers are all-too-very-easy to look down on when you've got quantum energy beams to play with.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[classicdrogn]

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SIF surface ships? Well, sea-naval, anyway?

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Well, let me put it to you this way - You're in the process of restoring an alien wreckthat relies on this wierd force field thing that is at best half-understood to not collapse under its own weight, let alone try to maneuver. The lab guys say it works, the test rigs say it works, and the scaled down versions built into DeSdroids and variable fighters have worked... but do you really want to trust this absolutely irreplaceable rescource to that without a test somewhere close to the same scale? For that matter, will the reverse-engineered ship-scale ganerators even work the same way, or do they need to be laid in differently than the (uniformly damaged to a greater or lesser degree) original alien models?
Now, you're in the former Pan-Asian member bloc - and one of the OTO members has reported in an EDTO session that they've started building a ridiculously huge surface ship based on the reverse engineered tech, are you going to let them be the only ones?
Now, you're the Prime Minister of Britain, and the bloody foreigners are getting uppity again. Perhaps you should have a quiet word with some chaps you know in Bristol, and remind the lot of them just why a tiny island held one of the greatest empires in history through the quality of Her Majesty's Navy, eh wot?
As for two ships per arm... nah. If nothing else, flight operations would be even more of a bitch with two sets of bridge structures to avoid.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Valles]

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For that matter, will the reverse-engineered ship-scale ganerators even work the same way, or do they need to be laid in differently than the (uniformly damaged to a greater or lesser degree) original alien models?

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Ah. Yeah, stet, that works.

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As for two ships per arm... nah. If nothing else, flight operations would be even more of a bitch with two sets of bridge structures to avoid.

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*explodes in frothing fit*
...
*goes away, comes back calm*
Okay, right. The reason flight ops on a carrier look the way they do (wires, catapults, runways, etc.) is that the aircraft it services have to stay at or above a certain minimum speed for their wings to generate the lift needed for flight.
In space, not only is there no atmosphere, but any two objects that close together are either falling in the same direction at the same speed anyway, or in a whole fucking lot of trouble.
Depending on the degree of control the EDTO's scientists were able to establish over the ship's artificial gravity system, they might or might not be able to extend artificial gravity outside of the original main hull (my vote is 'not'). Either way, though, they're certainly not going to have it on a point outside the ship where it would be more convenient not to.
Besides, the way it's looking is that they only got one carrier anyway, so who says it (or the other ships, for that matter) can't just be put at the most convenient angle?
Actually, I was thinking rather more than two - one arm, as I've doodled it out, has a battleship for the 'upper arm' and a bundle of four destroyers or cruisers that's been wrapped in several layers of makeshift armor for a 'lower'. And had a grappling claw built to scale grafted onto it. The other side has our catamaran carrier rotated ninety degrees relative to the core ship's gravity plane. Since the 'elbow' is between the two hulls, the assorted smaller hulls that got used to fill the gap to the upper arm assembly fit neatly inside also, meaning that the arm can be fully straightened.
Hmm. Actually, the VLS launch bays might have been put along the underside of the ship, so that the flight deck could be armored to a fair-thee-well... although that probably wouldn't have been considered as a factor until after the Saturn incident.
Oh, and a sudden, horrible, inevitable, perfect thought I had while I was sketching these 'arms' out - not all of the ships at Tinian that day were military. Do you really think that a cruise line would miss the chance to sell tickets to watch an event like the Macross's launch?
I have bits and pieces of an action sequence playing out in my head, and actually I think it comes out much more impressively if the Macross's arms are relatively flexible.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[ECSNorway]

Can't find Truespace yet, so I've broken out Illustrator.
Preliminary sketch of the converted sub is up.
Esperanza class escort scout
Given the massive reconstruction required of them, the decision was made by Macross command to re-christen the converted submarines. Names were chosen from terms for 'hope'.
Names were:
MES-01 Esperanza
MES-02 Fortunate
MES-03 Hopeful
MES-04 Audacious
MES-05 Homeward Bound
MES stands for "Macross Escort Scout".--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Valles]

Hmmm. We're mostly in agreement, I think. I'd placed a single larger engine on the centerline just aft of what used to be the propeller and wrapped about the aft third of the ship in additional remass tankage, but either way could work. (I'd also used the Los Angeles class's sail placement, but that's hardly relevant.)
The point I will take up, though, is centrifuge design - I think that, for a vessel that small, a solidly habitable ring is much too massive to be worth it. Instead, I'd use a lightweight structural ring with relatively small habitable pods depending off of it, accessed by a sort of subway thing that also rides the ring but can accellerate or decellerate relative to it.
Erm. This site has an illustration of the setup I'm particularly basing off of - page down or search for the words 'Dream Pod 9'.
Other than noting that neither of us seems to've previously thought of the fact that the sail'd make a dandy place to mount the actual direct-fire weapons, I think that's about it.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[classicdrogn]

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Okay, right. The reason flight ops on a carrier look the way they do (wires, catapults, runways, etc.) is that the aircraft it services have to stay at or above a certain minimum speed for their wings to generate the lift needed for flight.

In space, not only is there no atmosphere, but any two objects that close together are either falling in the same direction at the same speed anyway, or in a whole fucking lot of trouble.

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... you say that as if it makes a difference... as if it makes it easier... Without gravity and atosphere, not only do you have to come in at the right angle to come in contact with the landing area relatively gently, without missing the small and moving target that is the catch zone, you have to do it MOVING BACKWARDS so the engines are in position for braking thrust - and let's not even get into battle damage or the possibility of hostiles in the same sky. What's more, you have to do it with crews that have only had simulator time, not actual ZG flight experience at first, and the ones from the surface carriers probably don't even have that.
RE Esperanza: Does the whole ship spin? The sail would stop the ring at one of the struts, and it seems like it would be easier to just have it mounted aft of the sub proper, with a slightly longer beam out to the engines and the original engine room at least partially into the access area to the ring elevator.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Valles]

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... you say that as if it makes a difference... as if it makes it easier... Without gravity and atosphere, not only do you have to come in at the right angle to come in contact with the landing area relatively gently, without missing the small and moving target that is the catch zone, you have to do it MOVING BACKWARDS so the engines are in position for braking thrust - and let's not even get into battle damage or the possibility of hostiles in the same sky. What's more, you have to do it with crews that have only had simulator time, not actual ZG flight experience at first, and the ones from the surface carriers probably don't even have that.

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The lack of atmosphere is a physical, unavoidable fact. Anything and everything planned to be done has to take it into account.
Standard carrier flight ops in no way do so. Trying to pretend that they're viable only means that, if you're lucky, the edge of grav field yanks you down, without warning, at ten m/s^2 in a total loss of control. This isn't a smart thing to do with any kind of craft, let alone one that's got battle damage or misfired ordinance.
Really, as I think about it more, I start to think that not only is the carrier pattern utterly wrong, but there is a better one - mid-air refueling. Exactly the same conditions apply to both sides of the equation, and closing velocities are low.
If they're high, you're dead - that's how space works. Granted, high doesn't mean quite the same thing to a Valkyrie or other overtech system that it would to a conventional one, but the principle stands.
The braking thrust question fails to consider either the transformation ability of a veritech or the fact that any combat spacecraft is going to have a fairly noteworthy Reaction Control System.
The danger of learning unfamiliar operations and skills is unavoidable - that's life in the big city. Following a false parallel is worse. It's suicide.
ETA:

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RE Esperanza: Does the whole ship spin? The sail would stop the ring at one of the struts, and it seems like it would be easier to just have it mounted aft of the sub proper, with a slightly longer beam out to the engines and the original engine room at least partially into the access area to the ring elevator.

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What I'm thinking is that the hull and sail(s) are still, but have these roller/bearing things at their ends that the ring actually rests against and rotates past. So, the sails are the struts, and the ring moves past them. It's a suboptimal solution, but it's also by far the easiest refit and least massive of the options... well, besides just rotating your crew onto the Macross every few weeks.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[classicdrogn]

... now there you've got a REALLY good point. Why try to make a direct touchdown as if you were on a surface-based carrier, when you can grab onto the end of a cable and be pulled gently down to the deck against the thrust of your reaction puffers. This also allows for a 'rescue the damaged fighter' scene where someone's battroid gets to toss a lasso over its nosecone
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[drakensis]

IIRC the Valkyries tended to land in Gerwalk when they could get away with it, flying into some sort of corridor.
As far as I can see the SDF-1 would need to cater to carrier operatiosn with and without atmosphere&gravity. So there are 4 scenarios:
Take Off/Surface
- VLS bays would be feasible, but not as easy as in space. Just as feasible, launch along flat dorsal surface (out front or to either side of the conning tower).
Landing/Surface
- VTOL landing onto a flat dorsal surface then taxi onto elevator or into hanger. If no VTOL then have a clear runway section.
Take Off/Space
- VLS works perfectly well, but just applying enough thrust to get out a hatch will be fine.
Landing/Space
- match velocities, then grapple or get grappled before winching to deck. Probably get towed to an elevator.
So there would be a need for a large, flat, level surface with access roots to get fighters in and out of the ship, like a carrier deck. How much was designed in during the reconstruction on Earth and how much was cludged together in space, I dunno, but adding a full size carrier would probably help.
IIRC, Prometheus and Daedalus were built after the crash of the SDF-1 and were more than 1600 feet long. It would make sense if the EDTO's role included keeping the peace among the still fractious members of the three alliances for them to have the biggest capital ships around, for prestige and because they might be operating with very little local support.
So probably the main ships at South Ataria would be EDTO Wet-Navy ships, along with a few delegate warships from nations.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[VladimirTherin]

For character things, heres a chibi maker.
www.tektek.org/dream/
not sure what gaia online thing its *intended* for is, but meh.
"look at the chibis!"
warning: since hyou start with a semi-naked doll to dress up, it may be nsfw

[ECSNorway]

What I had in mind for the grav ring is actually a bit more sophisticated.
First of all, there has to be sufficient structural reinforcement to hold the ring to the hull during maneuvers. Secondly, when combat conditions may come up unexpectedly, we -cannot- have a moving structural member blocking use of our thrust units.
So my idea was that the ring itself is an armored shell, possibly fitted with direct-fire weapons and a SIF generator, with one or more fixed pylons connecting it to the hull and providing access tubes and storage space. Inside this shell would be the rotating section, 'floating' on bearings with a series of rotating locks to enter and leave it. (Making use of these would be a somewhat disorienting experience at first, as what happens is you go into what looks like an elevator, then the rotating bit comes by and 'hooks' it and it twists up through an opening in the two decks to deposit you on the grav deck, so you're undergoing a quick head-to-foot 180-degree rotation.)
Also, something else to remember: Subs are not terribly large. The primary pressure hull, not counting the extended boom for the engine, is going to be about 200 meters total length. It might have a beam of 10-12 meters.
There is not going to be a great deal of room in the grav ring. It will probably be wider than I've depicted it, but have only one deck and a crawlspace for emergencies. --
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[ECSNorway]

Remember, too, that crews are not going to be fielded in these ships for long periods. I figure they'll swap off with Red/Blue/Gold crews, sort of like present-day SSBN's blue/gold rotation, in a weeklyish schedule, most of the time.
If the boom between the main pressure hull and the engine is long enough, do you think we could fit in a couple of docking hardpoints for Valkyries along it? It'd basically be a collar that fits over the cockpit, so the pilots spend most of their time in the main hull with the crew and deploy as needed. Probably only room for a pair of fighters, but it'd be a useful force multiplier, especially if they have a good set of FAST packs.
This could be something they set up after the first couple of times one gets ambushed by a Zent scouting party and fighters from the SDF come to their rescue... --
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Valles]

---

First of all, there has to be sufficient structural reinforcement to hold the ring to the hull during maneuvers. Secondly, when combat conditions may come up unexpectedly, we -cannot- have a moving structural member blocking use of our thrust units.

---

Wait, what? The bearings are at the outer end of the sails, right? The ring and its pods are the only thing moving relative to the rest of the ship. Since the ring has to be balanced to be structurally viable, the position it's in has no bearing on the mass distribution of the ship - at which point, you can just bolt your reverse thrusters on port and starboard and, since they're inside the radius of the ring, they never interfere with it.
Referencing the same Atomic Rocket page as I did earlier, a moving gravity ring doesn't neccessarily inhibit the maneuvers of a ship, just makes them a bit wierd. Likewise, while mounting weapons on the outside of a moving ring is going to complicate your targeting, the degree therof is easily within the bounds of any computer, and there's no structural reason you can't. Even if you have to hang things off of the ring that you otherwise wouldn't, in order to get the mass ratio right for convenient maneuvering, then that still doesn't increase the ship's overall mass, the way your version does.
Erm. A bit like this. Red is engine, painfully pink is mission volume (sensors, weapons, etc.), sky blue is reaction mass bunkerage, and green is crew space. Data on the distribution of a submarine's internal volume comes from here.
Given that the habitation pods can be designed for optimum crew comfort, since the ship is no longer limited to an exact density, they're probably more effective living spaces than the old crew sections. Anyway, you can carry more than two if you like - again, just remember to keep it balanced. Also, who says we can't pare the crew size back?
If I've gotten my WAGs in the right neighborhood, they should have an internal pull of about half a gravity, a rotation rate of 3 RPM, and an overall diameter somewhere a bit short of, say, sixty-five meters.
Anyway, if these are strictly short-term vessels - two or three weeks - then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why they should have a centrifuge at all. But, if their designers are also planning to accomodate independant cruising and such (which isn't out of the question - look at how much - or how little - of a VF's internal volume is devoted to reaction mass), then I don't think it makes any sense to spend any more mass than you have to on something that has no other function. Heck, you could mount the radar masts on the ring - you'd get the same coverage, you wouldn't need masts so long, and as a freebie, you can eventually sweep the entire sky with a single installation.
ETA: Whups! The bolt-on Valkyries sound good - perhaps put their dock cradles one on either side of either sail, where crew access has to run anyway?
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[ECSNorway]

---

Wait, what? The bearings are at the outer end of the sails, right? The ring and its pods are the only thing moving relative to the rest of the ship. Since the ring has to be balanced to be structurally viable, the position it's in has no bearing on the mass distribution of the ship - at which point, you can just bolt your reverse thrusters on port and starboard and, since they're inside the radius of the ring, they never interfere with it.

---

Right. You have one or more fixed pylons supporting a ring that rotates around them.
And you're right, we can attach the phased-array antennae to the outer surface of the ring instead of using the mast arrangement.
The reason I mentioned a central-bearing ring interfering with maneuvers wasn't for centrifugal force reasons, but for the simple fact that exhaust from the thrusters might impact the moving pylon. I'll work up a new sketch tonight (don't have Illustrator here at work).--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[M Fnord]

---

EML:
What I'd had in mind for the EDTO sigil would be the UN's globe over a shield divided slantwise between dark and light blue (sort of like the independant Babylon 5 logo), but the split kite might work as a seperate symbol for dedicated (rather than seconded from member states) EDTO military units.

---

Something like this, then?
Not a shield, I know. Still, not bad for a half-hour's work. ---
Mr. Fnord, interdimensional man of mystery.
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Valles]

---

Something like this, then?

---

Essentially, yeah. I had pictured the slant going the other way, and I'm not sure how appropriate a symbol of peace is for an organization that's intended as a preperation for war, but all of that's just details. I like the stars, too. ^_^
Oh! I got to playing with the Chibi machine VTherin pointed us at.
Lydia Isidor

Kamaria Manfred

Jialan Estevan

Louhi Nyyrikki

Kyllikki Katsuro

Ukko Joukahainen

Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Bob Schroeck]

While you're still in the planning stages, here is one of the things about Macross that really failed the reality check for me.
When Minmei becomes essentially a superstar, why doesn't anyone else say, "hey, this girl's onto something -- I'm gonna get me a piece of that pie, too." We ought to have seen at least a couple Minmei copycats (both literal and figurative), if only because the market for idol singers was wide open. But no, Minmei has -- and keeps -- a monopoly with almost no effort.
I suggest that Jialan have to deal with competitors once things settle down a bit. Whether they want the money or the fame or both, someone else is going to try the idol game.

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03

[ECSNorway]

---

I suggest that Jialan have to deal with competitors once things settle down a bit. Whether they want the money or the fame or both, someone else is going to try the idol game.

---

Yeah.
It was strongly implied, in the McKinney novels at least, that there was a reason no competitors existed. Once they'd seen her and the other Miss Macross contestants perform, Gloval and the Mayor both basically locked it down. She would win, she would be IT, there would be no competition.
An alternative plot, depending on the timeframe we have available, could involve Jialan discovering this little conspiracy and demanding they STOP. And then discovering what it's like to have to actually worry about the competition. It'd be an intersting character bit, at least.--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.