this is CD not shutting up about the Prometheus class

[classicdrogn]

(so I don't keep pirating A117's threads)
On naming one of them "USS Hecate":
from an overdone witchy webpage:

---

Hecate was the protectress of far off places, roads, and byways. At night during the dark moon, Hecate could be seen walking the road of Greece with her howling dogs and torches. Statues of her stood at crossroads where the traveler faced three choices. Food offerings called "Hecate's Supper" were left there late at night on the eve of the full Moon. The person leaving the food walked away without looking back, for they were afraid to confront the goddess face to face. This was a way of honoring the threefold goddess where on could look three ways at once.

---

A more less overtly religious overview can be found here, of special note being that Hecate is the daughter of two of the original titans (Prometheus being himself a titan) and is regarded as having three faces - appropriate for a vessel that splits into three components, no? Furthur, being a guardian of sailors, livestock, and the young should bode well for a class whose greatest utility outside of pitched battle is probably commerce protection - a small ship that can do the job of three, and has the speed and striking power of a capital ship to lay the smack down on raiders without tying up as much manpower or material as a Soveriegn or even a trio of Novas.
- CD
What, you think Samuel L. Jackson isn't going to survive the zombie apocalypse?

SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Valles]

---

Furthur, being a guardian of sailors, livestock, and the young should bode well for a class whose greatest utility outside of pitched battle is probably commerce protection - a small ship that can do the job of three, and has the speed and striking power of a capital ship to lay the smack down on raiders without tying up as much manpower or material as a Soveriegn or even a trio of Novas.

---

I've always thought of the Nova as being essentially a successor to the Oberth class - ie, intended to deal with the question of fights by seeing them coming, then running away. The two potential competitors that I'd put up against the Prommies for the roving security job would be the Saber or Defiant classes.
The Saber, just to make a WAG, looks to me to be about 2/3-3/4 the size of an assembled Prometheus, and being that it was probably designed well before the Dominion War et al, is almost certainly going to be better at, well, just about anything that doesn't involve straight up combat. It'll also be half the cost or less, just because of how much -simpler- a machine it is.
Against pirates, who wouldn't have 1st line equipment or good supply lines or even very capable ships - because, face it, clobbering freighters doesn't take much - the fact that it's less than half as dangerous wouldn't matter in the face of all the other neat things you can use it for.
All that, given that a peacetime fleet'd probably be heavily downsized, -I'd- mothball the Prommies and keep the Sabers in service.
Comparing to the Defiant is, I think, likely to be even less favorable - I think that the price-per-unit ratio is likely to be something like 3:1, which given that they're both combat-focused ships, basically means it's a choice between paying for a hundred and twenty pounds of mean, a hundred-pound sack, and three forty-pound doggie bags, -or- a hundred and fifty pounds of mean in three thirty-pound sacks.
I can barely see a point to the MVAM - the three sub-units only really need to carry -one- full-up example of a given system between the three of them, which means that they'll have more room for guns and such than three smaller independant ships... but if you're going to go to all that trouble, -I- say, fuck it and build a fighter.
You take a small ship, say, half to two-thirds the size of your smaller BoP. Chop its endurance down to -nothing-, like, twenty-four hours or so, tops. Give it a reasonable top speed, on the order of Warp 8 or 9 or so. Add a bare-bones framework of other systems. Then turn the guns, shields, and agility up to 11.
Once you've done that, you take a larger, more conventional ship - say, a Steamrunner. Uprate the engines a bit, both for speed and to let it tow additional mass, double or triple its expendables, and add some extra crew quarters. Then bolt a half-a-dozen docking hardpoints to its outer hull.
Your parasites are going to be cheap for the amount of ship you're getting - they're specialists, and stone-axe-simple besides, and for peacetime work they can be replaced with other types - scientific specialists, cargo or passenger specialists, increased-endurance models capable of limited independant operations, etc. Your mothership will cost a little more than a normal ship of its mass, but the overall cost of carrier+parasites is still going to be less than an equivalent tonnage of Prometheus-class ships, and most of the cost in in the carrier, the overall -system- will be both better specialized and, in the long run, more flexible.
There are other advantages, too - for one thing, you're going to have a lot easier time building a swarm of parasites if you need them in a hurry than you would expediting the construction of a few larger ships, and for another, you don't -have- to base them off of mobile starships - extant starbases or planetside colonies will work just as well.
So, overall, I think that the Prometheus makes an interesting technology demonstrator, and will be valuable for the lessons learned by building and operating it, but overall, building more than one or two of the things would be a total waste.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Kokuten]

---

Your parasites

---

picture this.. a wedge/arrowpoint shaped 'control pod' with a long, slender 'drinking straw' spine. The spine is somewhat length-controllable, as in chunks can be broken off in a 'wet dock' service operation, and strapped to either the outside of remaining 'chunks' or to the outside of attached modules.
Modules are threaded onto the spine in an Easy class drydock/Very Difficult class wet dock operation, and are available in multiple types.
Modules include
-Enhanced Drive, providing power generation and higher-speed Warp drive
-Carrier, packing a small-but-signifigant number of fighters (6? make the whole assembledge hexagonal...)
-Enhanced Sensor, providing better resolution, response, tracking, etc, etc
-Weaponry, providing enhanced weaponry, etc, etc, etc
-Freight, providing haulage and loading/unloading capability via Enhanced Tractor.
-Shop, providing fabrication and repair facilities for modules/other ships
Modules fasten to hardpoints on the backside of each other or of the pilot module. The primary drive module fastens to the back of the spine, and to the rear hardpoints on the rear module.
While the modules contain crew/material/power conduits, often the primary conduits for same, the spine itself provides limited conduit capability.

Basically, you've got a dirt-cheap multipurpose ship. Slap a couple of carrier modules, a storage module full of spares, an engine module, and a sensor module, and you've got a carrier. Slap a few weapons modules, an engine module, and you're cranking a fairly beefy little gunship.
Slap a mess of freight modules, and you're pulling a mule.
The design would, in my mind, _require_ basic impulse and limited warp capability for a 'solo' pilot module.. While intended to be moduled/demoduled in depots, I imagine that module swapping would become a fairly common occurence, possible a merely Time Consuming maintenance task.
--- Kokuten Daysleeper, Retired Epicced Officered DorfWire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Elsa Bibat]

Disturbingly enough, I see Star Control II's flagship as what you are describing: very modular, with options for bigger crews or faster speeds or for more powerful weapons.
Just my two cents.

[ECSNorway]

You take a small ship, say, half to two-thirds the size of your smaller BoP. Chop its endurance down to -nothing-, like, twenty-four hours or so, tops. Give it a reasonable top speed, on the order of Warp 8 or 9 or so. Add a bare-bones framework of other systems. Then turn the guns, shields, and agility up to 11.
Like, say, the Maquis Raider that Chakotay and his crew were flying before they and Voyager took their little side-trip?--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[classicdrogn]

The carrier/parasites you're describing is almost exactly what is described for the Romulan patrol in the novel Final Frontier (which has nothing to do with ST V) except that those parasites don't have a warp drive at all, being set in the Captain April era, when Jim Kirk was a little boy whose only command was a Sunfish on the lake, facing the dangerous prospect of having his cheeks inhed and being called "Yeemee" by relatives.
RE the Prometheus class itself - I didn't mean to imply that they'd remain high on the production schedule after the war, but neither do I think immediately stripping Starfleet back down to prewar defensive ability would happen - not with the kind of casualty figures shown in the Dominion War while they were scrambling to gear up. Public outcry would be huge, even if the peaace-at-any-price political leaders tried to push it. Given that mothballing is not particularly an option, where would YOU deploy a ship that has essentially dropped all but the most minimal of science capabilities for combat utility? Border patrol or commerce protection are about the only options, aside from using its speed for long-range mapping expeditions, giving systems as good a scanning as possible (or the loals will allow) and making as many peacfule first contacts as possible (with the option of high-speed flight or force if they prove impossible) to pave the way for mor detailed scientific and diplomatic missions to follow.
Granted, that would fit with the traditional mission of Starfleet, but again, they just put down the last shitstorm from poking their noses into the gamma quadrant, will they really want to go stirring up more possibly hostile polities immediately? It probably wouldn't be long, but five years or even a decade of rebuilding and working out exactly where things now stand with the other major players in the alpha and beta quadrants would be entirely sensible. On the third tentacle, sending out one or two long-range explorers that can be pointed to to say that they're still doing the peacful exploration thing while the rest of the fleet quietly sorts itself out and gets the half-trained wartime crew replacements up to speed would also make good political sense - one of the scens that impressed itself on me from... well, probably a Voyager fic, since it's too much like continuity for it to have been canon, was where someone from the crew was taling with someone who'd been in the Donimion war, after semi-regular contact had been achieved for a while. Whoever it was said that Voyager had been a kind of mascot for Starfleet crews during the war, reassurance that even while things were going to hell there was still a Starfleet ship out there, 'boldly going' as in the traditional dedication speech.
- CD
What, you think Samuel L. Jackson isn't going to survive the zombie apocalypse?

SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Valles]

---

Like, say, the Maquis Raider that Chakotay and his crew were flying before they and Voyager took their little side-trip?

---

Somewhere between that and the Defiant, yeah - save for the fact that everything I've seen on the Raider suggests that it's just as much of a full-up starship as any Starfleet design. My proposal for the combat parasites is an exclusively tactical unit, which neither has nor needs the endurance to make any but the shortest of interstellar trips without assistance. The only reason I'd even include warp drive at all would be to prevent enemy ships from being able to disengage at will.
Anyway, I've done some figuring, courtesy of data from Ex Astris Scientia.
Sovereign class - 685m
Prometheus - 415m
Steamrunner class - ~360m
Nova class - 180m
Defiant class - ~120m
Maquis Raider - ~60m
In light of which, more data on my proposed parasite.
I think that it should be about ninety meters long, with two internal decks (the Defiant, for reference, has four) and an overall plan rather like a rhomboid pyramid - that is, essentially a flattened and scaled up Delta Flyer. 'Draft' about ten meters, 'Wingspan' between thirty and forty. Primary armarment would be six fixed pulse phasers mounted just inboard of the warp engines, backed by a pair of rapid-fire quantum torpedo launchers in the nose and three heavy strip phasers running lengthwise along the 'facets' of the hull. The navigational deflector is on the lower centerline, between the torpedo tubes, and is rather broad and shallow - about the same proportions as the Galaxy's, even if a very different look. Obviously, most of its internal volume is going to be taken up by equipment, weapons, or magazine space for the torpedo tubes.
About a third of the volume available to the crew is taken up by the Jeffries Tubes - and another third divided evenly between the bridge and the engine room. The bridge is nominally on Deck One, but in fact is about halfway between the two levels, sort of like -=. The rest of Deck One includes a shortish corridor running lengthwise along the centerline, a weapons locker, a rudimentary sickbay, and a transporter closet to port, and three small cabins along with the ship's common area (lounge/galley/living room) to starboard. Deck Two starts with another lengthwise corridor, this one all the way to the starboard side of the living areas, that runs from the bridge in the bow to Engineering in the stern. The rest of its space is occupied by the ship's lifeboat. Engineering is probably the most spacious part of the ship, being as it's got a fairly normal two-deck plan, but is still extremely cramped relative to even the Defiant.
The cabins have four beds each - bunked in pairs on either side of the compartment - but the ship's standard complement in actually only ten. The bridge has five stations - Helm, Ops, Gunnery, E.W.O., and Command - which are arranged sort of .... NRAGH! Fucking interfering EZBoard. Helm is down, forward, and center. EWO is middle-forward, port, and down. Gunnery is middle-forward, starboard, and mid-height. Command is center, middle-aft, and mid-height. Ops is aft, port, and up. They're connected by a sort of unrailed catwalk, and the -entire thing- is cantilevered out away from the compartment walls except for a few narrow structural braces... because those same walls are a Stellar Cartography-style 360 degree viewscreen. The seating is comfortable acceleration-couch type things, with seatbelts.
In the early days of the progam, your carrier ships would be refitted existing vessels - that's part of the point - but later on you'd want to be handling them with new-build hulls. Your carrier, whatever size you end up using, is going to want a lot of broad, relatively flat surfaces that you can set hardpoints into... My suggestion for an early design would be to take a Sovereign saucer, then stretch and build up its after edges somewhat, a la the Miranda or Constellation classes. Mount the warp engines (also Sovereign type, of course) in a down-and-angled-out position with integrated rollbar, sort of like a cross between the Miranda and the Akira. If my sketches are right, you'd end up with something about 2/3s the length of a Sovereign, and capable of carrying up to a dozen parasites.
Bang for your buck, ne?
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[drakensis]

When it comes to fighters, I prefer to build up from shuttles and the like rather than down from starships. My own take (influenced by the Honorverse LACs) is the Aesir-class Cutter, a heavily modifed Danube-class runabout.
Basically, replace each warp nacelle with a pair of combined launch tube/magazines (CLT/M), one where the nacelle rides and the other above it but braced off the same pylon. Each CLT/M is a pod containing a launch tube 18.6 metres in length with a 2.8 metre revolver-type magazine of 9 torpedoes mounted directly to the rear. The Matter/Antimatter packages used by photon torpedos are stored in the spinal structure of the runabout, using the same systems that would normally comprise a runabout's warp propulsion system.
The modular pods that make up the hull of the Danube between the cockpit and the aft cabin are replaced with additional sensors, ECCM, targeting systems and computers to process the information.
The Aesir cutters are deployed in squadrons around Starbase and from starships modifed with expanded shuttle bays (usually Heavy Cruisers or Explorers) because they lack warp drives. The principal advantage is the ability to deploy several squadrons to generate massive barrages of photon torpedos against targets like a Borg Cube - firing at maximum rate 7 squadrons of 6 cutters can launch 3 volleys of over 500 photon torpedos in less than ten seconds. The effect on an enemy fleet or a Borg Cube is left to your imagination.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Valles]

---

The Aesir cutters are deployed in squadrons around Starbase and from starships modifed with expanded shuttle bays (usually Heavy Cruisers or Explorers) because they lack warp drives. The principal advantage is the ability to deploy several squadrons to generate massive barrages of photon torpedos against targets like a Borg Cube - firing at maximum rate 7 squadrons of 6 cutters can launch 3 volleys of over 500 photon torpedos in less than ten seconds. The effect on an enemy fleet or a Borg Cube is left to your imagination.

---

*shakes head* A photorp is usually shown with a flight time of one or two seconds or so, right? Which is less time than it takes most ships to go to warp - but, assuming both target and launch platform are in normal space, I don't think that the warp timing is a fundamental limit - particularly for someone like the Borg. Flight time -is-.
And, if you'll call the NG:TM to mind, torpedoes have no inherent warp capability - they can stay there if something else has already done the work, but -that's- -it-.
Keep your engines 'idling' at around Warp One and they can't touch you - but by no means vice versa.
Basically, if you want to be affect a warp capable target, you need that ability yourself. Also, I think that the way even the smallest fighter-equivalents we've seen - the Jem'hadar ships, and the Maquis raiders - have been of, er, -considerable- size says a lot about the minimum mass overhead needed to build an effective combat unit. Yes, if you were willing to accept a combat power no more than equal to a BoP or some such, you could cram it into something small enough to count as a beefed-up smallcraft - maybe twice or three times the mass of a Runabout. By that point, though, I think that the 'small craft' would be so massive that a carrier big enough to operate them internally would have to be Galaxy-sized or better... which, well, isn't the most cost-effective option, especially when you've swapped out for non-combat parasites in peacetime.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Rod.H]

Er, apparently there is a canon starfleet carrier/fighter match up which has been in existance for awhile.
The carrier being the Akira-class, the fighter being the Peregrine.
Still, there's some interesting fightercraft designs for trek out there....

[ECSNorway]

... this is why I prefer SFB... and the DianeDuane Trekverse.--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[drakensis]

---

And, if you'll call the NG:TM to mind, torpedoes have no inherent warp capability - they can stay there if something else has already done the work, but -that's- -it-.

---

I completely agree with you on this.
However, while one or two seconds might be enough for a ship to go to warp to evade, it doesn't seem to happen an awful lot in Star Trek. I'd guess it's because doing so puts you out of the fight - if you're at Warp One then you're moving at the speed of light, you have to turn around and manuever to get back into the fight. This would make the Aesir's quite easy to bypass unless they're on top of the target, but quite an effective reinforcement to the protection of an orbital structure, for example.
Also, consider the command loop - going to warp to avoid a photon torpedo volley isn't the captain ordering evasive it's the helmsman seeing the threat and reacting as fast as possible without reference to anyone else. Combine that with the relatively tight formations seen in the Dominion War - ships within their own length of other ships and that sort of emergency manuevering is going to kill people. Even if you don't hit anyone, it's a domino effect as the couple of dozen ships being targeted try to evade the torpedos and everyone else tryes to evade them, and so on.
And in a sublight dogfight - which massed ship combats seem to turn into - squadrons of these would pass almost unnoticed and could engage at point blank range. I even one gets in a solid volley (three torpedo bursts from each launcher) at those ranges then the target is going to feel it - even if it survives then it's shields are going to be almost down and it's therefore relatively easy prey for the next big ship to come along.
For a carrier I agree that a large ship would be needed - probably a Nebula-class cruiser with the upper half of saucer section stripped internally for hanger space and retaining only about half the weapons and crew - about 120 to crew 40-odd Aesir, 120 'ground crew' and a hundred or so to fight the ship. Having one of these in a fleet of 60+ ships shoudn't be much of an problem - they don't replace existing ships, they'd supplement them.
I see your point about warp-capability being preferable - but you could trade out two of the CLT/Ms for warp nacelles in a pinch, carry Quantum Torpedos in stead of Photon torpedoes (removing the need for antimatter loading through the pylons) and get a fairly capable war-capable ship. The ammo would be more expensive - QT's are fairly rare IIRC, but it's viable.

---

Er, apparently there is a canon starfleet carrier/fighter match up which has been in existance for awhile.
The carrier being the Akira-class, the fighter being the Peregrine.

---

Yeah. I like the Akira-class, although I don't think they'd be big enough to carry Aesirs, which is why I'd use a Nebula. Peregrines as far as I can tell are fighter-killers primarily, not ship killers. The Aesir would be like the A-10, the Peregrine like... (I am let down by my knowledge of jet fighters) - some sort of interceptor, F-16 perhaps. The Aesir kills ships, the Peregrine prevents the enemy from doing the same to Starfleet.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Valles]

---

For a carrier I agree that a large ship would be needed - probably a Nebula-class cruiser with the upper half of saucer section stripped internally for hanger space and retaining only about half the weapons and crew - about 120 to crew 40-odd Aesir, 120 'ground crew' and a hundred or so to fight the ship. Having one of these in a fleet of 60+ ships shoudn't be much of an problem - they don't replace existing ships, they'd supplement them.

---

Then we're addressing different questions. To risk being repetetive, I'm taking the design trends we've seen Starfleet favoring with the creation of the Galaxy and especially Prometheus classes, then carrying them out to what I think is their logical best developement.

Re: Defense of fixed targets-
Yeah, -there-, I can see them having a real, valuable role. However, I wouldn't go all the way to designing and mass-producing a full class of the type - I simply don't think that it comes up often enough to be worth it. Instead, I'd execute the concept as an upgrade kit for the Danube class or its immediate successor, then just beef up the small-craft complement of my starbases and planetside facilities. You get, what, sixty, seventy percent of the combat effectiveness, a hundred-fifty percent the tactical utility (since they'd keep their previously mounted warp engines), and at least -twice- the cost-effectiveness... which might not matter to a designer, but definitely will to the Starfleet procurement office.
Which segues neatly into...

Re: Fleet Actions
...and my number one problem with the concept: These things are deathtraps! -Any- starship-grade weapon that catches one is an instant mission-kill, and, unless you're stupidly lucky, a dead crew. And however small and fast and agile they might be, relatively, they're not -that- fast or -that- agile. Their nature, IMHO, simply precludes shielding them seriously enough to make them survivable. Every time you commit them to combat, you're accepting that you're going to lose a significant percentage of your people.
If you can make them cheap enough (which I, personally, quite doubt), that might be good math for the Dominion, or certainly for a classical warrior culture like, oh, Starfire's Orions. But not the Federation - it's simply not their style.
Basically, and going by the very rough guess that one of my parasites (I like the idea of calling them Halcyons - it opens up names like 'Pillar of Autumn' and 'Truth and Reconciliation') will have a new-build cost about equal to a squadron of Aesir, you can send either set up against, say, a Saber. Anywhere outside of the best-case scenario where it doesn't see you coming, I can't see any way for you to avoid losing at least one or two ships.
Which, y'know, is a bargain compared to a light cruiser, I'll grant you.
But that single Halcyon has firepower and shielding equal to or greater than that of its opponent - along with maneuverability comperable to that of its smaller competition.
And that equation gets worse - a -lot- worse, I think - in a furball, because then, you have -no clue-, no way to -guess- who's going to decide to take a shot at you - and after the first ship they lose to the things in that war, you can bet they -will-.
Yes, the Aesir can put more firepower into a given target for the money - but torpedoes are anything but 100% accurate, and I suspect the ratio would get worse without the heavy-duty sensor and tracking gear a starship can bring to bear. In a crisis, or from an ambush situation, their fragility can be accepted - but never anywhere else.

Re: Carrier Size
While the Halcyon's usual mothership might be... considerable... it doesn't -have- to be. They're docked externally, remember, like the Captains' Yachts, and, further, were designed so that they could have all of their maintenance performed from the -inside-. You can literally base them off anything big enough to graft the docking clamps on to - including a Defiant, which says a -lot-, since my more recent sketches ended up being a lot closer to 100 meters than 75.
...
Pregnant Defiants. >_< Oh, what an image.

Re: Evasion
In a target rich environment, against conventional opposition, you're certainly correct.
Most of the fights we've seen were not target rich. And the Borg are -not-, in any sense of the word, a conventional opponent.

Sorry.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[VladimirTherin]

I think the reason we have not seen much in the way of fighter craft in the star trek universe is two-fold.
1. Extremely accurate sensor and fire-control tech.
2. Very powerful energy weapons that can gradiate their power, and can hit very small fast-moving targets with ease.
I mean, isnt it already part of the canon that enterprise itself can "pulse" its phaser bays to hit multiple small targets instead of just taking large 'burning' type shots?
Their enemies dont really use weapons designed for versatility like the feddies do, so small craft might not be as suicidal as it might seem.

[Florin]

Actually, a fighter craft with sufficent Anti - Capital Ship missiles could take out any Galaxy shaped ship easy. Assuming that the fighter craft is the more agile/faster ship, all it has to do is get behind and below the enginering section of the ship, since some doofus designed the firing arc's so that they can't hit anything back thier without burning a hole right through the hull first.
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all. 

[drakensis]

> However, I wouldn't go all the way to designing and
> mass-producing a full class of the type
The Aesir, and the warp-capable variant I mentioned (Vanir), would be built around the spaceframe of the Danube, so it would be possible to modify the one into the other - take off the launchers, drop the mission pods, fit nacelles and put the warpcore structure back together - one Danube. An Aesir would have 60-70% the parts for a Danube, so once the war is over they could be refitted easily - they're certainly a wartime design that's much less use in peace-time.
> Every time you commit them to combat, you're
> accepting that you're going to lose a significant
> percentage of your people.
Yes. And it's debatable if Starfleet would make that choice. However, they've commited Miranda-class ships to a fairly large number of battles and they tend to die quite easily. That's about the same complement as a wing of Aesirs and considerably more ship to replace.
The Aesir concept would be weak against fighters like the Halcyon or a Klingon Bird of Prey - no arguement there.
Against the Borg... well, at Wolf 359 the federation losses were 39 starships and 11,000 crew I think. Adding 42 Aesirs and 126 crew to that is a drop in the well - they'd be dead after about three minutes in combat at best - but chances are that at least half of them would be able to fire off every torpedo they had - I don't know how much effect 700+ photon torpedo hits in close succession would have on Borg shields, but I doubt it could have made the situation any worse.
In peacetime probably Aesir/Vanir modification packs could be located at a few central points and at need all available Danubes could be fitted out with the gear in a couple of days, then crammed aboard a ship dragged out of mothballs for carrier duty. Instant Carrier group, just add crews.
But you're correct, I'm going off topic. Sorry.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[ECSNorway]

Actually, a fighter craft with sufficent Anti - Capital Ship missiles could take out any Galaxy shaped ship easy. Assuming that the fighter craft is the more agile/faster ship, all it has to do is get behind and below the enginering section of the ship, since some doofus designed the firing arc's so that they can't hit anything back thier without burning a hole right through the hull first.
Have you ever taken a look at the actual model?
There are several smaller phaser strips around the rear of the ship -- two pairs of small ones above and below the absolute aft of the engineering hull, arranged to either side of the aft torpedo tube, and one on the outer curve of each nacelle pylon.--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Rod.H]

Actually I think he's geting confused with the Consitution & Sovereign classes, for they have that weakness. I think the fact that the Galaxy-class is one of the few Starfleet designs with phaser banks arranged to reduce the blindspots is something most ignore or forget. Come to think of it, the only time I've seen it accuartly modeled is in the ST:TNG PC adventure game.
--Rod.H
"Galor-class bearing 098, mark 30" "Fire saucer dorsal, and port pylon arrays!"

[ECSNorway]

Yeah. The Galaxy-class is actually pretty well-covered with phasers. There's the big obvious ones (the main saucer dorsal and ventral arrays), the ones I mentioned above, plus the main strip on the top of the "battle section" pylon, and another along the ventral bulge of the engineering section.
Sovereign I haven't seen enough of to say for certain, but I'd have to assume they'd have addressed that weakness in what was clearly meant to be a battleship/exploration combo.
Constitution... well, actually, check the fire arcs on the saucer ventral mounts (one to either side)... you'd have to be pretty damn carefully positioned to be out of arc completely, and then you're in WAY too close to want to be shooting at a warp core that big.--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[classicdrogn]

I'm fairly sure the Sovereign has, at a minimum, a sideways strip across the bottom of the engineering hull, and I remember reading that a couple more were added in addition to the slight change of nacelle position before Nemesis, all as retcons rather than refits. The point, though, was somewhere a small ship could sit and be out-of-arc, not how safe it is for said small shi to be there - close in over the engineering hull may do it on a Galaxy (I'd have to check, and why would I want to?) but Sovereigns have a couple of short strips aft on the suacer that could hit even there.
I think a better question would be if we've ever seen anything but the dorsal or ventral main bank on the saucer used by ANY starfleet ship...
RE fighters vs. small ships, I think the surviveaility argument would be the most persuasive to 24th century thinkers - what's a little more money if it saves lives? To their morally advanced civilization, which pretends to be evolved beyond money except to trade with non-Federation members?
- CD
What, you think Samuel L. Jackson isn't going to survive the zombie apocalypse?

SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[firvulag]

---

I think a better question would be if we've ever seen anything but the dorsal or ventral main bank on the saucer used by ANY starfleet ship...

---

I think they did this in one of fights against the borg cube when they were trying to rescue Picard. I'm fairly certain they used the banks that are hidden by the saucer section, and maybe the pylon ones.
Other than that, they're always in position to use the main saucer banks. Probably for the same reason they always meet up with other ships at the same attitude.
Firvulag,
--
"How is it that I have root access when my weakness for abusing power
is so apparent?"
-- Derick Siddoway

[ECSNorway]

Probably because a) the main saucer arrays are the most powerful and easiest to target, and b) we've never seen an enemy who maneuvered enough that they couldn't just tilt the ship a little to get them in arc of that great big ring.--
"Use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of General Zod has been approved."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Valles]

---

I think a better question would be if we've ever seen anything but the dorsal or ventral main bank on the saucer used by ANY starfleet ship...

---

ISTR the Ent-E using just about everything and the kitchen sink blind-firing at the Scimitar in Nemesis.
And, yeah, there are at least two small banks that cover the space between the nacelles on the Galaxy - one to either side of the aft torpedo launcher. And if you get in close enough to a nacelle to hide from both those -and- the ones along the bend in the pylons (which, honestly, is one of exactly two problems I have with the Galaxy's design - -why- do that? It doesn't benefit anyone... And it looks even -worse- on the Ambassador.), then you've brought yourself into the arc of the saucer's ventral bank.

---

Other than that, they're always in position to use the main saucer banks. Probably for the same reason they always meet up with other ships at the same attitude.

---

Probably - but even if they didn't, those have the largest arcs on the entire ship - something like three quarters of all possible angles someone can attack from. Really, all that the other banks are for is to cover the gaps where the nacelles and engineering hull block the main arrays.
Ja, -n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[drakensis]

---

Constitution... well, actually, check the fire arcs on the saucer ventral mounts (one to either side)... you'd have to be pretty damn carefully positioned to be out of arc completely, and then you're in WAY too close to want to be shooting at a warp core that big.

---

It's semi-canon (from Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, rather than on screen or a tech manual) that the pre-refit Constitution did have a minor blind spot there. So did the post-refit Enterprise. New-build Constitutions after that (Such as the Enterprise-A) had a photon torpedo launcher back there, which doubtless came as a nasty surprise to someone when the previous blind spot started s**ting torpedos.
I think Aya Nakajime noticed the fault in the connies in UF, although her solution was less than popular with Starfleet Command (she mounted a wave motion cannon in her shuttlebay). The 'full' story is in Redneck: Wilderness.
It is canon that the Galaxy class has a rear-firing torpedo launcher right at the back, so probably the Ambassador and Excelsior class do as well. I don't know about the Sovereign, but it seems likely since it's really well placed for when you're running away - the pursuer can either take the hit or dodge, the latter slowing them down.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Florin]

Well, all I can go by is the shows and movies, and I don't remember them ever firing anything but the main strips on the saucer section and the rear torpedo launcher (which is why I said behind and below the ship). Of course, the reason they only ever fired those weapons is the same reason that every planet in the galaxy looks the same, Stock Footage is Your Friend. Also, except for the movies, nobody ever really bothered dodging attacks... how often did Worf ever say "They're firing... they've missed Sir."
Although, I wonder... they have to make a small gap in there sheilds to let Photon torpedo's out right? If you were extremly lucky, and had a good targeting computer, could you put a beam through that gap and explode the torpedo on it's way out, probably cooking off the magazine? Probably not a good tactic to try, since you'll either miss and get pasted by the torpedo or hit and get pasted by the ensuing explosion, but certain death isn't gonna stop the Jem'Hadar or the Klingons.--
"Ah, so now we know who the donkey is in the family. And where the donkey pulls the cart, the ass is sure to follow."
Jack Russell, Radiata Stories
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.