An Experiment: Collaborative Plot Design

[Bob Schroeck]

I had this little Harry Potter altiverse idea not long ago, and in recently thinking about it, I thought I would use it as the basis of an experiment. The idea is a mere seed, a "what if" that dates back to some of the oldest scenes we see in the books -- what I'd like to do is throw it out, and let people develop the course of the alternate history it spawns, by suggestion, debate and consensus. And maybe along the way we can find a story to tell in that altiverse.

Sound interesting or fun? Good.

Okay, here's the seed:

Young Severus Snape falls in love with Petunia Dursley, not Lily.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Shepherd]

The first decision would likely be whether the two of them wind up as a couple.

If they are a couple, then they are either happy or unhappy. Either way, do they have any kids? Are the kids magical?

If they are not a couple, then they are either on good terms or bad terms. Has this breakup made one or both of them better people or has it made them even
more petty and spiteful?
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[Acyl]

If they're not a couple, it could be they broke up ... or they never
were. It's possible that this Snape, like the canon Snape, has simply spent years watching the woman he loves...from afar, as it were, gnashing his
teeth in resentment while she married a man he loathes... Vernon Dursley.

Question is, which option has more legs?
-- Acyl

[ECSNorway]

How do they meet?

Does Lily bring Severus home to meet her family? Perhaps she dates him for a time, before tossing him aside for Potter?

Was she brought in to hide with the Potters when they were with the Order?

Or does Petunia have magic of her own, perhaps barely over Squib level, and attended Hogwarts herself?

Did she make it to graduation? Is she bitter over having had to leave early because her magic is so limited? Is that why she married Vernon, if she did?

Did she marry Vernon, then carry on an affair with Snape? Is he, perhaps, Dudley's real father? What would a Dudley who grew up with Secret Uncle Severus
be like?
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Shepherd]

ECSNorway wrote:

---

How do they meet?

They met in canon. I believe that book 7 has a pensieve memory of a young Snape using magic to make a tree limb fall on Petunia's arm,
breaking it.
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[Sirrocco]

Quite possibly most important... *how* did he fall in love? Assuming that we're trying for altverse rather than Massively OOC altverse... Snape's love
for Lily seems to be (to me, anyway) driven largely by his admiration for her intellect and abilities as a witch, plus that whole "oh, look! it's
another magic person!" What could Petunia have had that might have rouse within him that sort of admiration?

Alternately... we don't know all that much about Petunia as a young girl. Her marriage to Vernon, and the events of the wizard wars, might well have
dulled her. What if *she* fell in love with *him*... and then schemed to catch him?

How much would you have to change to make this plausible? How much would you be willing to change? "What if Petunia was also a witch, and Snape fell in
love with her?" requires less justification to get started, but seems ultimately a less interesting premise than somehow managing it with
Petunia-as-Petunia. (mind, there are plenty of excellent stories that come out of uninteresting premises... or even painfully overdone ones. For examples...
see everything Ozzallos has ever written.)

Hmmm... you could probably do some interesting things with the "Petunia as schemer" plan, combine with the fairly common "not previously
described binding ritual" (it's not even out-of-canon. Rowling created random plot-significant rituals out of thin air with some regularity) and
having Petunia pull the old switcheroo at the right time.... Of course, the long-term results would depend on the effects of the ritual itself, but it might
be interesting to explore.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

...Would this result in Harry Potter being raised by Snape? o.O

--Sam

"I seek... Pez!"

[Necratoid]

I think a big mistake is being made here... your mostly trying to change to many things at once. The first thing that needs to be done is list off the effects
that Snape loving Harry's mom had in the first place. Otherwise this is just lets make 'Petunia magic Wheee!!!' which is bound to fail as an
exercise... your changing to much at once andspinning wildly off into C and D fanfic range. No the first thing to do is see what the changes in the plot would
be from changing this small event. Granted it has big effects on the timeline for Harry and all.... but one minor change.... then examine thechanges without a
bagillion factors mudding things up.

Why (motivations) for what Snape does can't be without what he does. The How he does it will be effected by what he does in the first place. Take one
feature that would change and argue the efftects on the timeline. Then take another feature and tell us what effect that one change would have, independant of
the previous change and the next one alone also. Trying to change everything willy-nilly at once will make a trainwreck at best. Establish What changes and
Then tell us How it changes things... the Whys are effects of the other two things. Once we have a relatively stable baseline... Then we can make super
changes...

For example,, Harry probably wouldn't get as much flack as he does in the cannon... James didn't swipe his girl... he was still a jerk, but Snape
isn't going to have as much hate for Harry specifically. Son of a jerk, but not the jerk who swiped 'his' woman. Changing nothing else, but
Snapes affectional slant... he is going to do less to go after Voldy as he has much less of a revenge motive. If Snape is a stalker here, he'll actually
buddy with Harry: to get news of his love.

If we start off with a major change like giving Petunia magic.... it guts the series like a zombie fish. With magic she won't hate Harry near as much...
as she wouldn't have met Vernon and spent a decade or so learning to hate the non 'Normal'. In the cannon Vernon has an idea of normal... which
include beating the genetics (magic) out of people as possible. Locking small children in spider filled closet crawlspace under the stairs and keeping the kid
as a slave/house elf. Being morbidly obese and having a rage disorder... or dealing with problems with things not normal by running away from your own house
and hiding in a leaky shack in the middle of nowhere. I'm not even counting the 'normal' way he raises his own son.

So guys... establish what your change would have as an effect with the smallest change possible... then start in with the bigger changes... rewriting
Petunia's character entirely is all about an original charicter named Pentunia, and not about characters I can recognize.

Seriously, the major desision that this could result in without changing the characters completely is have Snape being the wizard watcher on the street and not
the kindly, old woman type that was there. Snape could end up as Harry/Dudly's science teacher at school and having a strict tutor for Dudly alone would
give him more of a moral spin. When you get down to it... Snape is the kind of teacher that Pink Floyd was complaining about in 'The Wall'. This
could also easily mean that Snape stalking Petunia (plus studiing science as a method of fitting in with those not magic, like Petunia) and not radiating venom
at James for stealing 'his' girl.... means he never joins the Death Eaters... which would screw them over as they'd have a lot less access to
potions and ritual components. Which will increase their attrition rate a lot, after all the Death Eaters are psycho nobels pillaging and raping their way
around and few are shwn to have many useful skills as anything but grunts. I'm willing to bet that Snape made potions that prevented lots of Death Eaters
from dieing long enough to plead mind control in court.

[Bob Schroeck]

Wow, some very interesting extrapolations, all in less than a day... I'm short on time right now, so I'll have to come back and reread everything
thoroughly to offer my own thoughts. (I'm not playing referee here, by the way -- my vote will not be the decider.)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Shepherd]

Necratoid wrote:

---

The first thing that needs to be done is list off the effects that Snape loving Harry's mom had in the first place.




For example,, Harry probably wouldn't get as much flack as he does in the cannon... James didn't swipe his girl... he was still a jerk, but Snape
isn't going to have as much hate for Harry specifically. Son of a jerk, but not the jerk who swiped 'his' woman.




If we start off with a major change like giving Petunia magic.... it guts the series like a zombie fish. With magic she won't hate Harry near as much...
as she wouldn't have met Vernon and spent a decade or so learning to hate the non 'Normal'.

Effects of Snape loving Lily? Possibly minimal. She considered him to be a childhood friend rather than a romantic interest.

Harry getting less flack? Not necessarily. If Snape and Petunia didn't work out, he can hate Harry for being the nephew of the horrid woman he once loved.

Vernon is not the source for Petunia's hatred of magic, Snape is. A young Snape was very nasty to Petunia, even going so far (IIRC) as to use magic to
break her arm. If the two of them got together and then had a nasty breakup, she would still probably hate Harry.
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[Wiregeek]

she would still probably hate Harry

And Snape would hate Harry for getting to live with Petunia.. which maintains status quo in the Snape/Harry relationship, and allows the series to progress as per canon.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[Star Ranger4]

You all are overlooking the one biggest, most glaring change of all.

Given just the change of Snape falling for Petunia over Lilly, there is one major arsed plot change... Snape no longer has a reason to turn coat to the Order
of the Phoenix, and should remain a loyal snake face; let us not forget that it was only his unrequieted love for Lilly that drove him from the ranks of the
DE's and into Dumbledore's camp. If its her sister he loves so much instead, I see no reason for him to lift a finger over Lilly's impending
Demise...
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Shepherd]

Star Ranger4 wrote:

---

Given just the change of Snape falling for Petunia over Lilly, there is one major arsed plot change... Snape no longer has a reason to turn coat to the Order
of the Phoenix, and should remain a loyal snake face; let us not forget that it was only his unrequieted love for Lilly that drove him from the ranks of the
DE's and into Dumbledore's camp. If its her sister he loves so much instead, I see no reason for him to lift a finger over Lilly's impending
Demise...

So you're saying that someone in love with a muggle will have no reason to turn against muggle hating cultists and that he will be unwilling to try to
save the sister of the woman he loves?
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[Star Ranger4]

Yeah, thats what I'm saying. Given Snape's personality as written, he would NOT lift a finger to save Lilly, because of James, unless specifially
browbeaten into it by Petunia! Given that unless we make major changes to the timeline she's already marred Vernon Wizard hater at this point, she'd
have no reason too, as well, Imo.

In fact, one might speculate that its Petunia's marriage to Vernon that drives Snape into the ranks of the Death eaters, just to preserve cannon at the
point of Trewlany's prophecy to Dumbledore. Because if Snape doesnt join the death eaters, there is no way for him to be in the right place or the right
time to do ANYTHING about ANYTHING.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Necratoid]

Err.... as I Star Ranger4... you do realize that you basically married Vernon and Petunia off to each other in middle school for your statement to work
against anything I've said. Yes, I realize that Snape would be in any position to save Lily if he is after Petunia... however your flat out ignoring why
Snape joined the Death Eaters in the first place... which amounts 'to all the cool kids were doing it'. Snape wasn't exactly swimming in extra
friends (even of the fair weather type.) If he is trying to persue a muggle then a Half Blood like Snape has no reason what-so-ever to join another Half blood
on a slaughter the half bloods and muggle borns crusade.

That your insisting that one of the major plot points is that we MUST keep the canon intact, is just icing on your logically faultly arguements. Why would we
want to keep the canon virtually intact for something as major as removing the guy who makes the potions and treats the equipment that makes the Death Eaters
as effective as they are? I already posted a scenario.... which was basically ignored except to promotethe canon police party line.

The reason I bring up the canon police is that contering my scenario was done solely on the basis of 'Not Canon enough', must preserve the canon.
However Shepard did bring up a good point... if Petunia hates magic, because Sanpe is a explitive.... then if he is after her and not maiming her... she
won't hate magic so much she seeks of Vernon. Who I already described the 'Must! BE! NORMALl!' issues of. However I won't just ignore your
scenarios here so...

I'll go with the Canon Police here for a minute (though won't really go for full on support of them)... What if the change isn't in Snape (past
ignoring he won't be the Order spy (If we believe his memories aren't just tailored/altered to make him look better to Son of Lily)) what id the change
is in Petunia. If Snape didn't put her in a cast for weeks on end... so Petunia was just jelous of Lily, rather than hating all magic. Then she could
marry a better man than Vernon (the member of his family show in the canon is as vile as he is, so its a family trait, by breeding or training). Which meakes
the end result a different Harry, with a more/less miserable childhood. Depending on who she does marry... or if she does marry, we can get all kinds of
Harrys ot of this change.

Or maybe the end effect is Petunia marries a skinny guy and is Harry's mean skinny aunt. That and Snape isn't in the Order. Which may send him to
prison... and the students in Potion class rejoice for years for reasons they can't explain.

Or maybe Voldy goes after Petunia to draw James and Lily out of hiding... and Snape snaps and drops a ground zero fireball (Wormtail at least appears to know
how) and takes out himself with Voldy's body and half the high ranking Death Eaters. Being around so much suddenly discharged magic means Dudly ends up a
mage... and goes to school with his cousin Harry. Perhaps orphaned Dudly ends up living with his Aunt and uncle... Voldy is after Dudly from being a survivor
of the event that offfed him.

Snape lives through that and only Vernon dies.... and Petunia marries the guy who saved her life... Snape with a woman is a happier Snape.

So answer me this... why only make changes that make near useless changes to the canon?

If we want to go the other way:

Snape gets turned down by Petunia and becomes Voldy's head male grunt and the Death Eaters off more muggles and generally the timeline goes all Dark fic.
and Snape just doesn't get a chance at redemtion. Or Snape starts in with the potion based wide spread posion clouds and the viel is broken as the muggle
government has to deal with this major national security issue.

In closing, why bother to change anything at all if it basically going to end up the same story as the original canon?

[Star Ranger4]

Why indeed.... Because we are engaged in a thought excercise at the moment, for one. Yet one needs to limit the changes of the variables lest the project
becomes no longer recognisable as a derivative, change too many things and you have a completely NEW story with copied names!
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Shepherd]

I've always thought that the key to a successful AU was to start with a single change and watch as things slowly change in response to the
alteration. In this case, something will have to happen to draw Snape towards Petunia instead of Lily. From that point, you need to carefully reveal the series
of events that result from the change.

One thing that will have to be covered is how the information is revealed. Will the story start at the time of the change and move forward from there, or will
it start with an 11 year old Harry and use flashbacks and in story revelations to provide the information? If you are going the former route, then you can have
things turn out very differently since you'll be revealing the string of dominos effect as it happens. If you use the latter method, you'll have to
leave things close to canon on the surface and subtly ease into the differences and the reasons behind them so as to maintain the integrity of the story.
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[Necratoid]

Star Ranger4... maybe its post blindness kicking in (only the last 1 to 3 posts back actually exist starting from the last one made by the post blind)... but I
did state that kind of thing myself.

More importantly, do we really need to be arguing the formatting of a theoretical story.... before we know what it is that happens in the story? Yes, pacing
and other story telling methods are actually important... but this is the root brainstorming of the plot and not far enough into the story to matter the style
it is written in. Take this as the private brainstorming sessions that no one, but a select few actually see... rather than the preproduction official write
ups that come from the set design teams.

Style is great and all... but unless we have something to actually stylize in the first place its going to be a failure of a story.... barring lucky improv
from the cast. Being a fanfic the cast tends to be completely at the writer's mercy... unless the writer's muse decides to smack the writer around for
being stupid.

The story must have a vehicle to move the plot(cargo), before we decide how the vehicle is going to move. Barrel rolls don't work well on a pogo stick
after all.

[Star Ranger4]

Again, my point....

Change too much and we have barrels labeled "Pork Fat" that actually contain Hydraulic fluid, to use your own analogy.

But we're all going around in circles here and not getting the damn truck loaded. So lets play cargomaster and get back to whats on the bill of lading, ok?

IF:

Snape falls in love with Petunia Evens instead of Lilly Evens?

THEN:

Does he ever tell Petunia?

Does it change if she's actually a Squib instead of pure muggle?

If he does tell her, does Petunia return any sort of feelings?

Is she offended by Snape's personality or grooming?

Does she see past that to see a worthwhile person underneath and take him on as sort of a fixer up project?

Further down the road, this leads to the question of do we have Petunia still married to Vernon come the start of the 'official' timeline? if so, why
did she break with snape, (assuming that she doesnt snub him from the start)

Would Snape have joined the death eaters at all? probobly not if he was still in love with Petunia at the time, though he might if she was particulary snottish
during the breakup or snubed him right off the bat. Of course there is still the peer pressure angle of "all the other cool sytherins are doing it,"
but I doubt that would work, as Snake Face is a highly accomplished legimens, and would weed that sort out as too fair weather to be trusted until he was
actually in charge.

If Snape IS a death eater:

Would he have reason to turn coat after learning that the Potters were the next in line?

Would he even have been the one there to hear the prophecy Trelawny gives?

All of which have to be defined to understand what sort of world we have at the point(s) of departure so we can decide what, if any changes are visible at the
start of the story, assuming that we pretty much start, as JK did on the close order of Harry's eleventh birthday. Certainy there was story to be told
before that point, but if you look at it, it really was more of laying the groundwork defining harry's miserable life prior to arriving at Hogwarts.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Necratoid]

Change too much and we have barrels labeled "Pork Fat" that actually contain Hydraulic fluid, to use your own analogy.

As I said, I don't fully agree with this point. I agree with it in many ways, see My thread on 'Fanon that Trumps the Canon for Far too Long' for
details. The reason I disagree is that a big enough alteration of a single life event can change a character. For better or for worse or for weird. Which is
basically what this thread is for the purpose is. Spontanious changes of importatnt traits is one things, a thing of bad. Long term changes from earilier
events are a different thing.

Minor events that change things like... one of Luna's housemates has actually played a table top RPG and when Luna keeps mentioning weird beasties no one
has ever heard of.... that housemate asks to see whatever Bestiary it is she has been reading. It turns out the thing is a hundred years old (or a reprint of
one) and the names come from a traveling circus/ freak show that wanted to bring in more people with more fantastic sounding names of the creatures. That the
names come from such a traveling show when the sources sighted are actually checked.... that is has one at all is strange for a wizard published book.

Anyway, in this case if Snape does actually land Petunia he is going to be a different person. If nothing else he'll be less stressed out all the time.
Not a preference just a statement.

I think what we need to do next is decide what kind of story we want to write.... realistically we can (and in this kind of thread should) do this multiple
times. So what kind of story do we want to outline here? Me.... not an endless angstfest and not something that is entirely romance driven.... or that leads
Snape in Wormtail's arms for comfort or something. So participants state your preferences here.

[Lordpanther14]

I agree with Necratoid. When I read a fan fiction I don't want to read the same story with the same events happening and the same feelings being brought
forth in the main characters. I think that's the main failing behing most ranma fan fiction. I like a fresh look at the character's personalities,
more in depth, and perhaps a more human look at the character. What initially drew me to Drunkard's Walk, for example, is Doug's interactions with the
Knight Sabers and boomers being more than mindless killing machines. I also like humor in the story.

Petunia's relationship with Snape does have a foundation where the two of them naturally met and Snape broke her arm. Now, lets make the change where
Snape is sorry for doing that and feels guilty about it, as well as getting yelled at by Lily and decides to make it up by using magic to fix Petunia's
arm. They would still have the rough start to their prospective relationship and Snape could continue meeting with Petunia, thinking that if he became friends
with her that he could get back into Lily's good graces. Say he dumps his friends that end up Death Eaters but no matter what, Lily won't give up
James and his bullying friends. The only person he can get to like him is Petunia and the two can have an akward romance phase.

Having a good relationship with Snape would allow Petunia to be less xenophobic about magic and Harry could have found protection from Uncle Vernon through
her. With a better view on those with magic she would be less likely to rail against Lily and James. I doubt she would tell him the whole truth but she'd
probably have a wider range of emotions for Harry beyond hatred, disgust, and fear.

In the books Snape was a mysterious figure that was a villian in one book and a hero in another. Despite Snape's cruelty and callousness, he was capable
of a powerful love that was expressed in his patronus. He was even willing to become a double agent for Dumbledore because of Lily. I would like a fic that
explores that aspect of Snape, his capacity to love. I think that the Death Eaters never showed much coordination or planning in their attacks beyond show up,
make some threats, throw some curses, and high tail it out of there. I don't think this would lead to a lot of injuries as they went for quick strikes. I
also can't recall when Snape's potions did much healing in Canon. I do think that he would have been a valuable resource in getting rare potion
ingredients, would have access to the forbidden section of the Hogwart's library, and would have been a valuable informant on Dumbledore's actions.
Hard to quantify what kind of loss that would have been to the Death Eaters if he didn't join.

As for Trelawney's prophecy it isn't critical that Voldemort ever hears it. He was already attacking the families in the Order of the Pheonix and the
prophecy only focused his attentions on the Potters so that he felt he had to deal with them personally. He could have attacked them anyways though it would
have been more likely that he sent some of his Death Eaters like he did when he sent Bellatrix Lestrange against the Longbottoms.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

I can see Harry having a fairly better childhood here -- Snape and Petunia still wouldn't be the best choice in the world for foster parents, but he'd
be raised in at least a somewhat caring household and have knowledge of magic from the start. ...Under these circumstances, Snape also wouldn't be as
beholden to the headmaster and would probably disagree with any suggestion of raising Harry without wizarding influences. Probably even teach the kid to not
trust Big Al D-Dore as far as he could be thrown.

--Sam

Snape-fathered Dudley: squib or not?

[Bob Schroeck]

Mm. I think Dudly should probably be a squib. (Tangent: initially typoed "squid", which inspired a momentary vision of a very different fic indeed. &ltgrin>) Harry's childhood should still have bumps in it, and a Dudley jealous of the attention Harry gets for his magic would be one of them.

Learning distrust of Dumbledore is a big plus in my book. While in canon he's undoubtedly a well-intentioned person who isn't anything like the manipulative mastermind we see in some fics, he's still prone to big blunders caused by his tunnelvision over the "greater good". Teaching Harry to analyze motives and to weigh benefits would be something I suspect Snape would do... And for when we get that far down the road, might incline Harry more towards taking Slytherin as a house after all. Assuming Draco doesn't still turn him off entirely.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.