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Spud:
Your case is two business entities duking it out. This is business vs. John Q. Public. Guess who's gonna win out?
Epsilon:
You're missing my point entirely. I'm not talking about what subbers/scanners offer. I'm talking about what the Japanese production companies offer.
I am talking about what the American companies that license this stuff offers!!!
If something that gets produced in Japan totally bombs, we can only shrug - such are the risks that they take with these things and they are well aware of that fact.
However, these companies in America? They have the unusual capability to see how one market responds to something before they decide to bring it to their own home market. It's like looking before leaping.
Honestly, it reminds me of that scene in the beginning of the movie, The Other Guys, where the two Star Detectives have chased the baddies to the roof of a ten story building, only to find that they've escaped via zip lines which were then cut. The detectives then decide to jump off the roof and aim for the bushes... except they just assumed there were bushes below. The only thing down there waiting for them was pavement.
At this point, subbers and scanlators hardly even enter the picture. All they do is they make the market more competitive because people know what's good and what isn't in advance. If anything, they would be useful tools to the industry as a measuring stick to gauge the popularity of a title before they license it.
EDIT: I had recently downloaded Katanagatari and I was about to upload it to BakaBT as my first offering to the tracker... but it just got licensed by NIS America (famous for localizing games like Disgaea, they seem to have decided to start branching into anime). I was a bit miffed, but now I feel: More power to them! As soon as I have the money for it, I would love to have a Blu-Ray release of Katanagatari.
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Epsilon Wrote:So, how do you tell the difference between the next regurgitated crap and the next Haruhi Suzimiya (or whatever anime you want to put in there)? Pretty easily - "the next Haruhi Suzimiya" doesn't follow the exact same plot line that all of the "regurgitated crap" does. Granted, neither does "the next Plan 9 from Outer Space", but at least the innovators are trying to come up with something original.
Epsilon Wrote:The only way to produce art is a scattergun approach. Throw enough of it at the wall, see what sticks. It would be nice if the anime production companies would go back to that approach... but most of them have hung up their shotguns and are using photocopiers instead. (Note that the majority of the original anime in any given half-decade come from a minority of studios.)
When you're throwing enough of it at the wall, and seeing what sticks, don't be surprised when nothing sticks to the spot where a dozen previous throws have already been stuck. And if you're aiming at that spot on purpose, well...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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BlackAeronaut:
The situation I related is in no valid way different than scanlaters-vs-publishers (or license holders, if you wish). The only difference is that scanlation groups, presumably, do not have profit in mind farther down the road. The *effect* of what they're doing is, as I see it, exactly the same as the situation I described.
Honestly, you can't just say "apples and oranges" and wave it off. If anything, this is more like tangelos and nectarines. 
I've already pointed out I've found an article that shows a publisher (ero manga, which may or may not apply to this war) who is in general well-disposed towards scanlation, even though he notes that it has the same effect as piracy. He's a niche market, though, and one that in the US probably won't have the sort of wide appeal that publishers are looking for when licensing manga.
This is hardly a rousing endorsement, no matter how nice or polite the scanlation groups are. At best it's a situation where they're tolerated because the alternative is worse, but there's always the threat that when it DOES get licensed and distributed, people just won't buy it because they can get it for free.
That's a hard act to fight, and it doesn't matter what the motives are. I don't care about the morality of the situation -- is it wrong? is it right? is it justified? who cares! -- I'm just trying to determine if the general trend is towards net benefit to the market, or detrimental.
I suspect the latter.
--sofaspud
-- "Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
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robkelk Wrote:Pretty easily - "the next Haruhi Suzimiya" doesn't follow the exact same plot line that all of the "regurgitated crap" does. Granted, neither does "the next Plan 9 from Outer Space", but at least the innovators are trying to come up with something original. That's a nice idea in theory, but in reality what tends to sell is what is familiar. One Piece is the most popular manga in Japan by a wide margin and its very firmly following the tracks laid out by Dragonball before it, same with Bleach, Naruto and a lot of the other series out there which make a great deal of money.
If it weren't for people following what was already produced we would have never had Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and that would be a shame because that is far more awesome than any GiTS franchise which preceeded it.
Quote:It would be nice if the anime production companies would go
back to that approach... but most of them have hung up their shotguns
and are using photocopiers instead. (Note that the majority of the
original anime in any given half-decade come from a minority of
studios.)
When you're throwing enough of it at the wall, and seeing what sticks,
don't be surprised when nothing sticks to the spot where a dozen
previous throws have already been stuck. And if you're aiming at that
spot on purpose, well...
You say that as if this is some unique quality of this time. Anime (and in fact, all entertainment media) has always been full of derivative crap. The proportion of crap today is the same as it was ten years ago or thirty years ago or a hundred years ago.
Selective memory tends to prune out all the horrible anime and manga and visual novels produced over the last thirty years, but it was all there. It also tends to give more credit for creativity than a lot of work actually deserves. Many of the works we consider the seminal works of their genre are not so because they were especially creative, in fact when you look at them in context they often aren't. They were simply better done than other pieces of crap that happened to come out with the same genre at the same time.
To extend the metaphor into a conceit, it doesn't matter how much stuff is thrown at that point on the wall. Good work will shine through no matter what. It doesn't matter where they aim at, the quality of the work often has little to do with the premise or the expected genre or the target audience or what-have-you.
The trouble is that all that bad work they have to put out to support the occasional good work. As that bad work becomes less and less profitable (due to piracy) then there will be less and less good work produced.
You can't have it both ways. If you want more quality productions you're going to have to live with the fact that the amount fo shit will increase in direct propotion. If you try to shrink the shit, then the good stuff will shrink in proportion as well.
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Epsilon
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You know, maybe I should move this thread to Politics...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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I thought we were keeping it civil enough to avoid that, but it's your call, Bob.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
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Just worrying about escalation.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Bob Schroeck Wrote:Just worrying about escalation. Don't worry about. I've said all I have to say, anything else will just be chasing the same arguments around in circles again and again like every other time this comes up.
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Epsilon
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Bob Schroeck Wrote:Just worrying about escalation. Don't worry about. I've said all I have to say, anything else will just be chasing the same arguments around in circles again and again like every other time this comes up.
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Epsilon
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Epsilon Wrote:robkelk Wrote:Pretty easily - "the next Haruhi Suzimiya" doesn't follow the exact same plot line that all of the "regurgitated crap" does. Granted, neither does "the next Plan 9 from Outer Space", but at least the innovators are trying to come up with something original. That's a nice idea in theory, but in reality what tends to sell is what is familiar. One Piece is the most popular manga in Japan by a wide margin and its very firmly following the tracks laid out by Dragonball before it, same with Bleach, Naruto and a lot of the other series out there which make a great deal of money.
If it weren't for people following what was already produced we would have never had Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and that would be a shame because that is far more awesome than any GiTS franchise which preceeded it. We also would never have had Nanoha A's... but we also would never have had El Hazard: The Alternative World, or Tenchi in Tokyo, or Dragonball GT.
Epsilon Wrote:Quote:It would be nice if the anime production companies would go
back to that approach... but most of them have hung up their shotguns
and are using photocopiers instead. (Note that the majority of the
original anime in any given half-decade come from a minority of
studios.)
When you're throwing enough of it at the wall, and seeing what sticks,
don't be surprised when nothing sticks to the spot where a dozen
previous throws have already been stuck. And if you're aiming at that
spot on purpose, well...
You say that as if this is some unique quality of this time. Really? I thought saying "in any given half-decade" made it clear this wasn't a recent phenomenon. I need to work on my communications skills...
Epsilon Wrote:You can't have it both ways. If you want more quality productions you're going to have to live with the fact that the amount fo shit will increase in direct propotion. If you try to shrink the shit, then the good stuff will shrink in proportion as well. I never said that this wasn't true. Mind you, I happen to think that the anime market as a whole is glutted - on purpose, because of choices made by the Japanese - and could stand some pruning back.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
paladindythe
Unregistered
Just throwing this out there.
If there was a site that has a subscription model (like a crunchyroll version for manga), would you pay for it?
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I've been thinking about this a lot today, actually.
A subscription model would *probably* work -- if you're talking about the licensed rights holder being the one offering the subscription. If you're talking about scanlation groups doing it, you've just moved them firmly into piracy-for-profit territory. I don't think that's what you meant, though.
The other idea that occurred to me would be for the industry to embrace the scanlation groups, but offer limited content. Which is to say, a scanlation group is authorized by a license holder to freely distribute their translation, up to x% of the overall published total. For example, if Hot New Series A has 12 issues published in Japan, and the limit was 20%, then the scanlation group could legally put out 2 of those issues without running afoul of anything.
This would give the license holder exposure, and it's easy to monitor the ruckus and see if it'd be worthwhile making the investment, while at the same time legitimizing what the scanlation groups are doing and removing them from the "pirates are bad, mm'kay?" viewpoint. It would also, I suspect, result in some very strongly targeted market research, but that's a side effect.
I don't know if it's feasible and obviously there's nothing stopping bad apples from just putting out everything they can get their hands on, but for middle-of-the-road types I think it has potential. And lowers the risk of entry because the license holder can see in advance how popular something is, without having to pay a cent to dip their toes in the market. The scanlators are going to do it -anyway-, after all.
--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs
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A legitimate rights holder with a site for comics running off a subscription would be on my 'yes please' list immediately (I have a Crunchyroll account already).
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
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A subscription model wouldn't work for me, really. The only time I get any peace to do anything I enjoy are when I'm stealing hours from my sleep cycle. I'd be more of an on-demand customer, and sporadically so at best. That's why I prefer to download my stuff, so I can peruse it when I realize I have the time to do so.
I only get to marathon something about once a month or two, so it wouldn't be any different than going out a buying it... and then I gotta deal with keeping the DVDs and BDs stored in a place where they'll remain in pristine condition... now that I have my family to contend with once more, ain't happening. I'm far safer with strictly digital copies.
paladindythe
Unregistered
Does anyone know if Crunchyroll was actual distribution rights, or if they work out a deal with the liscence holders for streaming?
I'd want a third party doing the hosting, working with the liscence holders. That way there's a single place for everyone to go for manga. (Well, atleast until a competitor arrives. I'd rather have competition on service, not content.)
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Crunchyroll's deal is purely online streaming rights.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead
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And jumping back to the original subject of Tokyopop closing up in the US, a blog post by a (former, apparently) translator about Tokyopop, the start of the manga and anime licensing world in the US, and the company fizzling out... The Tokyopop Effect
As for the discussion that's come up about fansubbing/scanlations... I don't have any easy answers for the legal issues. All I can say is I really wish there was a win-win answer to the situation. I do recall though, back in the late 90s or else very early 2000s running across a site where someone was translating Inu Yasha. I recall comments on not being satisfied with the Viz translation of the first few issues, so it would have been after they started. But what I'm really recalling here is that the person doing it also commented that they were intentionally keeping the resolution of the scanned pages they posted low. Their position being that their goal was translating for their own benefit first, and offering people already reading the manga an alternative to the original, but that it wasn't their intent to provide something that would serve as a substitute for actually owning either the original manga or an officially licensed English printing.
Whenever I see anything from current fan translation groups I tend to think of that, as few of the ones I've been pointed to seem to do the same, "This is scan is only being provided with enough quality to see what's happening, if you want to be able to really appreciate it then buy it."
I do think the most workable long term solutions will come less from trying to stop people from copying and instead from making it as simple and convenient as possible to be able to pay for a copy. I'm reminded of a proposal I saw from an engineer in the early 90s for ebooks, that did include DRM, but with one big difference from what we have on DRMed ebooks now. There would be no attempt to keep you from copying the file. Instead the publisher would decide on a portion of the book to leave unencrypted and the file would include sufficient information that if you liked the free sample portion you could simply click a button, make an online payment, and receive (a good for your particular ebook reader only) decryption key to read the rest. It actually went further by potentially allowing passing along information on who provided you with the copy so they could get a commission of money or other perks (Hey, twenty people you've passed our books onto have gone on to pay to read the whole book. Here's $5/coupon for a free book/invite to publisher author luncheon at nearby convention/etc).
-----
Will the transhumanist future have catgirls? Does Japan still exist? Well, there is your answer.
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Almost every article I have ever heard of on the issue indicates that piracy results in improved exposure, and that results in increased sales.
The sole exception is always material directly funded by industry groups like the RIAA/etc.
Please note that the conflating the kind organized *counterfeiting* with piracy is something their studies just love to do, but reputable independent studies differentiate.
Fans eagerly distributing stuff online and nerding out over it together is entirely different from a guy running a bootleg booth 30 feet from the store trying to make legit sales.
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The "Library Book Effect" perhaps? Or how Baen's free library has supposedly boosted their sales?
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
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Exactly.
The Music Industry spends a significant amount of their money on advertising and such. They even let their most most recent and popular songs play over the radio. (Sometimes they even bribe radio stations to get MORE play time).
Simply because the increase in exposure pays dividends. This isnt something up for debate, its established and is one of the reasons the big publishing houses justify their existence.
Especially in the manga industry, I dont know of anyone who seriously browses the bookshelves. EVERY manga I've cared to pick up in the last decade has become of interest reading scanlations on the internet.
For example NOBODY heard of recent titles like bleach and naruto before they were scanlated online and became fan favorites. The publishers that brought them over were filling a market demand that had already grown.
The market in asia for these products is flat because it costs the equivalent of a months salary for the average person over there, and theres always someone at the local flea market peddling a bootleg at a more reasonable price. It has nothign to do with internet piracy, or it would be worldwide, wouldn't it?
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Foxboy Wrote:The "Library Book Effect" perhaps? Or how Baen's free library has supposedly boosted their sales? Given that I've purchased a few David Weber books now based on the fact that I was passed a copy of the Honor Harrington disc a couple of books back, I'd say it's worked so far.
(It's also helped boost Tor sales, Weber's Safehold books are through them, although it doesn't hurt that they gave away hardcovers of the first book in the series to everyone attending MileHiCon a couple of years ago when he was one of the guests.)
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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