All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part VIII

[robkelk]

Thread 8, right on schedule...

Now that http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/rep ... ply-140219]Geth has perma-banned "Saline", I've been reviewing his changes and reverting some (but not all) of them. I'd like some advice on http://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?ti ... id=1187112]the changes to "So You Want To/Write a Cyber Punk Story".

Obviously, the typo fixes can stay in.

Obviously, the changes to standard headers (e.g. "Suggested Themes and Aesops" -> "Suggested questions, themes and Aesop-to-Aesop conflicts") get reverted.

Obviously, the Suggested Plots that he cut get put back.

Obviously, we should take the real-world organization names out of the changes.

By preference, the changes from Commonwealth English to US English get reverted - this isn't a US-specific genre, our policy is that they're both okay, and the Commonwealth spellings were there first.

Some of the others, though, I'm not sure about. Are all of those Suggested Themes and Aesops applicable to the genre? Should the motif be obscure? Does everything added to the Props section make sense in-genre? Do costumes need to look like modern-day outfits? Does the "Sound" section belong in the article at all?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Ti922l6ke7eq6tua

Does anyone want to touch this topic with a ten foot poll? It's to do with the Kiwi Farms article, and the guy seems to not like a certain group being called an "Asshole Victim". That's all I'm going to say.

[robkelk]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Ti922l6ke7eq6tua

Does anyone want to touch this topic with a ten foot poll? It's to do with the Kiwi Farms article, and the guy seems to not like a certain group being called an "Asshole Victim". That's all I'm going to say.

Geth's taken care of it - I have nothing to add to what he wrote, so I'll be staying out of the discussion too.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[GethN7]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Ti922l6ke7eq6tua

Does anyone want to touch this topic with a ten foot poll? It's to do with the Kiwi Farms article, and the guy seems to not like a certain group being called an "Asshole Victim". That's all I'm going to say.

I wrote the entry they are complaining about as neutrally as possible, given my own admitted biasies, and I advised them to take their complaints up with the Kiwi Farms. Thye exhibited the behavoir, I merely commented that they show the trope in question towards those they deem to fit ther criteria of "pedophile", and that if the party objecting did not like this, the Farms themselves would be better to address on the subject.

It's one of the reasons I took pains to avoid linking any specific "lolcows" covered on the Kiwi Farms article, just in case this happened.

[robkelk]

Ack!

Cannot access the database: Connection refused (81.4.125.112)

14:53 ET Sunday

EDIT: And now I notice the sitenotice:

As you might have noticed, Miraheze wikis were unavailable at random times for multiple hours, due to database errors. As a result of those errors, Miraheze will perform quick, but high-priority database maintenance on 19:50 UTC today. To avoid loss of edits, save your edits before that time.

RE-EDIT: And we're back.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Labster]

That whole incident that you guys got drawn into with him over simple
media headings made me frustrated anyway. Admin fiat over on ED I guess
has an advantage there. Sometimes you guys can sometimes be too patient
with these people XD.

Actually Geth is just about right in his level of moderation for my tastes.  Talk to them just long enough to confirm their fucktardedness and inability to listen to friendly advice, and then b&. Now if we were only able to do that on the Miraheze level, I'd be a happy man, but they show an awful lot of tolerance to a certain ban evader/sock puppeteer/global steward banner (PROTIP: you can't actually ban a global steward).  But it's not really my thing.  I'm only Miraheze CFO and security reviewer, and not any kind of community manager.
I've been not doing very much All The Tropes stuff, sorry about that.  But I'm working on incorporating Miraheze and establishing it as a nonprofit.  If someone here is interested in being on the board of directors let me know.  The board is responsible for mainly financial things like hiring staff, making sure tax forms get filed, preventing self-dealing.  Being able to help do fundraising is nice.  Being a U.S. citizen is not required.  Real name and address are required.
-- ∇×V

[LulzKiller]

That whole incident that you guys got drawn into with him over simple
media headings made me frustrated anyway. Admin fiat over on ED I guess
has an advantage there. Sometimes you guys can sometimes be too patient
with these people XD.

Actually Geth is just about right in his level of moderation for my tastes.  Talk to them just long enough to confirm their fucktardedness and inability to listen to friendly advice, and then b&. Now if we were only able to do that on the Miraheze level, I'd be a happy man, but they show an awful lot of tolerance to a certain ban evader/sock puppeteer/global steward banner (PROTIP: you can't actually ban a global steward).  But it's not really my thing.  I'm only Miraheze CFO and security reviewer, and not any kind of community manager.

I've been not doing very much All The Tropes stuff, sorry about that.  But I'm working on incorporating Miraheze and establishing it as a nonprofit.  If someone here is interested in being on the board of directors let me know.  The board is responsible for mainly financial things like hiring staff, making sure tax forms get filed, preventing self-dealing.  Being able to help do fundraising is nice.  Being a U.S. citizen is not required.  Real name and address are required.

I wasn't saying his moderation was bad/wrong. I think Geth is a very good moderator. I'm just used to the style of being able to deal with it immediately due to past experience, so seeing everyone get involved just seemed a distraction when it seemed the discussion could have at least been resolved. Again, I'm not making a negative comment on ATT/it's users, was just making my own personal frustration known regarding that user.

You talking about that Amanda person in terms of global steward banner? I can't remember what the exact story was apart from that she wanted 100% control of everything on her wiki in opposition to Miraheze rules.

On a unrelated note, I managed to get regex to not shit the database completely and move 1500+ pages out of a duplicate category, which robkelk will be pleased to hear because I believe he was planning on doing that manually. Still have to fix one or two things that the regex caused but they can regexed themselves.

Also I'd like to compliment SelfCloak for putting in the effort regarding categories, whether duplicate or otherwise.

[robkelk]

I've been not doing very much All The Tropes stuff, sorry about that.  But I'm working on incorporating Miraheze and establishing it as a nonprofit.  If someone here is interested in being on the board of directors let me know.  The board is responsible for mainly financial things like hiring staff, making sure tax forms get filed, preventing self-dealing.  Being able to help do fundraising is nice.  Being a U.S. citizen is not required.  Real name and address are required.

Alas, that would put me in a conflict with my paying job.

On a unrelated note, I managed to get regex to not shit the database completely and move 1500+ pages out of a duplicate category, which robkelk will be pleased to hear because I believe he was planning on doing that manually. Still have to fix one or two things that the regex caused but they can regexed themselves.

Lovely, and thanks!
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

On a unrelated note, I managed to get regex to not shit the database completely and move 1500+ pages out of a duplicate category, which robkelk will be pleased to hear because I believe he was planning on doing that manually. Still have to fix one or two things that the regex caused but they can regexed themselves.

Lovely, and thanks!

Any other major cases like that need doing?

[robkelk]

On a unrelated note, I managed to get regex to not shit the database completely and move 1500+ pages out of a duplicate category, which robkelk will be pleased to hear because I believe he was planning on doing that manually. Still have to fix one or two things that the regex caused but they can regexed themselves.

Lovely, and thanks!

Any other major cases like that need doing?

We have "Category:Names to Know In Anime" and "Category:Names to Know in Anime" - the one with the capital-I "In" should be moved to the one with the lowercase-i "in".
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

Lovely, and thanks!

Any other major cases like that need doing?

We have "Category:Names to Know In Anime" and "Category:Names to Know in Anime" - the one with the capital-I "In" should be moved to the one with the lowercase-i "in".

I did it and it seems to have worked on the pages but it hasn't updated on the category.

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category: ... w_In_Anime

I'll give it a few hours but I don't know whether I fucked something up or not.

[Bob Schroeck]

I did it and it seems to have worked on the pages but it hasn't updated on the category.

Whatever the DB proc is that updates the category occasionally seems to run only in fits and starts. A few hours should do the trick.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

In terms of two very similar categories:

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Creator

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Creators

In the realm of the Thunderdome, who leaves?

[GethN7]

In terms of two very similar categories:

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Creator

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Creators

In the realm of the Thunderdome, who leaves?

Former. The latter needs moved to the former category.

[Bob Schroeck]

I think what you meant was that we keep the former (Creator, singular) and roll Creators plural into it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

I did it and it seems to have worked on the pages but it hasn't updated on the category.

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category: ... w_In_Anime

I'll give it a few hours but I don't know whether I fucked something up or not.

It still hasn't updated.

I've seen this before - if it's the same bug, we'll need to go in and manually make "null" edits to each affected page to get them to show up in the correct category.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

I hope it was because that's what I did. I also did the same for "Lets Play".

I also made my actual first main article.

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Gearbox_Software

Please let me know if I messed up anymore, as the leading paragraph is basically nicked off Wikipedia. If it's sufficent, can I be allowed to take it off of

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/List_of_W ... _Companies this?

[Bob Schroeck]

And it looks like all of Miraheze augered in and splatted about half an hour ago. At least ATT and meta.miraheze.org are both throwing "technical difficulties" screens, with "(Cannot access the database: Connection refused (81.4.125.112))" as the specific error.
EDIT:  And no sooner do I mention it here than it's resolved, either by itself or by admin intervention.  I shoulda said somethin' sooner.  
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

I think what I'd like to see on the creators category is:

• Every page with Category:Creator or Category:Creators in the main namespace gets {{creator}} added to the top (if it isn't already)
• Category:Creator should be a hidden category, or maybe just deleted, because we always have backlinks to the {{creator}} template.
• Everything that used to be a subcategory of Category:Creators needs to go back on that page.  We used to have one organized list and one disorganized list, and now we have only the disorganized one.
• Everything currently in Category:Creator needs to go on a subcategory of Category:Creators.

I guess I should have been paying closer attention here, because it looks like a lot of extra work got made here.
In other news, the SiteNotices at the top of the page now have a thing saying [ dismiss ].  Every time you click it, we fire someone from Miraheze, er, I mean it makes the sitenotice disappear.  If you want to change the notice, you'll need to bump the number on Mediawiki:Sitenotice_id.
-- ∇×V

[robkelk]

...
In other news, the SiteNotices at the top of the page now have a thing saying [ dismiss ].  Every time you click it, we fire someone from Miraheze, er, I mean it makes the sitenotice disappear.  If you want to change the notice, you'll need to bump the number on Mediawiki:Sitenotice_id.

Thanks for the heads-up. Is Sitenotice_id decimal, hexadecimal, or something else?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

I think what I'd like to see on the creators category is:

• Every page with Category:Creator or Category:Creators in the main namespace gets {{creator}} added to the top (if it isn't already)
  
• Category:Creator should be a hidden category, or maybe just deleted, because we always have backlinks to the {{creator}} template.
  
• Everything that used to be a subcategory of Category:Creators needs to go back on that page.  We used to have one organized list and one disorganized list, and now we have only the disorganized one.
  
• Everything currently in Category:Creator needs to go on a subcategory of Category:Creators.
  

I think we can both agree that pages that have more than creator in terms of who they are is a good thing, in that particular case that would just require the "page that needs more categories" category, and I've been personally working on that.

I would strongly protest against the deletion of the creator category, or even to make it "hidden". If we were to do either what would we do in the case of Tropes and Works? Would we delete them or make them hidden too? They are important for both categorising and navigating, especially as I haven't gotten the navbox idea off the ground yet. People have and will use the Creator category to find out our pages on the Creators themselves like they would Tropes or Works.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of having a category for Creators themselves and another category that has the subcategories that Creators used to have, but there needs to be something that sorts out the seeming duplication, as normal users will likely just dump actual creators into the creators category per what they would do for tropes and works.

I have what I think is a solution to that issue, instead of "Creators" for these sub-categories, we use "Types of Creators" this sorts out both the duplication problem and the confusion problem for those who want to make pages and add categories. Whether you want Types of Creators to be in Creator or not is not something i'm particularly fussed on.

[robkelk]

I think what I'd like to see on the creators category is:

• Every page with Category:Creator or Category:Creators in the main namespace gets {{creator}} added to the top (if it isn't already)
  
• Category:Creator should be a hidden category, or maybe just deleted, because we always have backlinks to the {{creator}} template.
  
• Everything that used to be a subcategory of Category:Creators needs to go back on that page.  We used to have one organized list and one disorganized list, and now we have only the disorganized one.
  
• Everything currently in Category:Creator needs to go on a subcategory of Category:Creators.
  

I think we can both agree that pages that have more than creator in terms of who they are is a good thing, in that particular case that would just require the "page that needs more categories" category, and I've been personally working on that.

I would strongly protest against the deletion of the creator category, or even to make it "hidden". If we were to do either what would we do in the case of Tropes and Works? Would we delete them or make them hidden too? They are important for both categorising and navigating, especially as I haven't gotten the navbox idea off the ground yet. People have and will use the Creator category to find out our pages on the Creators themselves like they would Tropes or Works.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of having a category for Creators themselves and another category that has the subcategories that Creators used to have, but there needs to be something that sorts out the seeming duplication, as normal users will likely just dump actual creators into the creators category per what they would do for tropes and works.

I have what I think is a solution to that issue, instead of "Creators" for these sub-categories, we use "Types of Creators" this sorts out both the duplication problem and the confusion problem for those who want to make pages and add categories. Whether you want Types of Creators to be in Creator or not is not something i'm particularly fussed on.

There's a design question here: how flat do we want these categories to be?

At one extreme, we can make the Creator category perfectly flat: everybody who is a creator is tagged with "Creator". At the other extreme, we can make the category completely hierarchical: we only use subcategory tags, nobody who is a creator is tagged with "Creator", and the Creator category becomes a container category for the subcategories. Neither extreme is really useful on a wiki that has as many editors as ATT does. However, I have no idea how to design the category tree... Any ideas, anyone?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

I mean when I said I wasn't fussed as to whether Types of Creator is in Creator or not, I'm perfectly fine with agreeing for it to be in Creator in order to apply that category tree. I was specifically arguing against the latter idea of hierarchy due to the fact that such the case does not happen with Tropes or Works.

[GethN7]

I side with LK on this issue, the container category idea sounds worse than what it might cure.

[robkelk]

So, perfectly flat? I can live with that - if "Category:Creator" is in the {{creator}} template (and I believe it already is), it'll happen automatically.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012