All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part VIII

[LulzKiller]

It won't need to be completely flat because I'm fine with the idea of Types of Creator being in it as well, whether just as themselves or in that specifically named category. I just want to remove confusion.

[Bob Schroeck]

if "Category:Creator" is in the {{creator}} template (and I believe it already is),

It is -- I put it there about 14 or 15 months ago to facilitate some tasks I was doing with Wonderbot.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

Sorry if I've been a bit blunt, but I'm trying to keep 10 balls in the air right now.
So right now the very tip-top of the category tree is at Category:Top Index. In it you can see the same split between Category:Trope and Category:Tropes -- the singular form is the flat list, while the plural form is a container category.  The same split appears with Category:Media and Category:Work.  So what we have right now is this sort of hierarchy:
Container categories  ? Mixed categories (with subcats and pages)    ? Standard categories      ? Normal wikipages      ? Normal wikipage with associated category      ? Categories pretending to be normal wikipages      ? Tropes with subpages pretending to be categoriesFlat categories from templates ({{creator}})Page title based categories (work or trope name)Functionally unclassified categories that are hidden from us because they're on Category:Index Index.
So four of these are problems.  The tropes pretending to be categories can be moved back into main, with {{subpages}} added on that trope's page, easy peasy (and {{IndexTrope}} transformed back into {{trope}} if necessary).  The unclassified categories need to be identified.  Honestly I'd do it by adding Index Index on {{main}}, botting to find pages that really look like they want {{main}} on them, and stripping Index Index from all other pages (unless it's a normal link).  Special:AllPages is a thing so we should maybe let IndexIndex be useful rather than a mishmash of everything.
The other two are harder and require manual intervention.  "Normal wikipage with associated category" is normally a supertrope that has examples, but also subtropes.  I don't know exactly what to do here, but maybe DPL can help by generating a list of members of a category for a wiki page.  "Categories pretending to be normal wikipages" come from the fact that on TVT you could wrap anything in index tags and it would be a category.  A lot of these need to moved to the Category namespace, but they have issues like:

• Laconic descriptions that need to be created on the trope, not the category
• Groupings that could maybe become subcategories
• Terrible names like "You Would Not Want to Live In Dex"
• Examples here for some reason, either movable or deleteable

The things that I'd like to see by the end of it:

• Mostly boring names so you can actually find tropes or works by category
• Categorize most things in a tree
• Don't force things to become a container category if it's not natural
• Leave the flat categories for purposes like botting.
• Finish my custom extension that displays laconic text on category pages next to the page name (I had a computer die, so minor setback on this)

At least that's my vision for it.
-- ∇×V

[Labster]

Thanks for the heads-up. Is Sitenotice_id decimal, hexadecimal, or something else?

It's JS ===, so I'm pretty sure that's just string comparison.  You could use "11" or "foo" or "apples" and I'm pretty sure it won't care as long as it's different from what came before.  We also have a major version number set in the PHP configuration, so we can bump a different number for global sitenotices.
Also please go vote here if you consider DeltaQuad a sane rational person(s) to be a Miraheze global steward, or especially if you don't: http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Stewardship
-- ∇×V

[robkelk]

...  The tropes pretending to be categories can be moved back into main, with {{subpages}} added on that trope's page, easy peasy (and {{IndexTrope}} transformed back into {{trope}} if necessary).  ...

Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:IndexTrope says there are 1014 pages with the template on them. Not a huge project, but not an hour's project either, considering we need to make category pages for all of the pages we move back to the Main space. And we also need to differentiate transclusions of the template on Category pages from mentions of the template on Talk pages.

Also please go vote here if you consider DeltaQuad a sane rational person(s) to be a Miraheze global steward, or especially if you don't: http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Stewardship

Yeah, I see what you mean by "or especially if you don't". Typing up my "Strongly Oppose" reasons now.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

DQ seems to get mad at any vote of oppose, which doesn't help his/her cause.

Also MT7 is another user who seems to be trying to get rights any way he can, despite having extremely limited use of English.

[robkelk]

I'm not worried about a Steward having limited command of English, as long as the Steward can still do the job. I am worried about being able to communicate using a limited command of a language - a large part of a Steward's job is to communicate with users.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

It's more that it's impossible for anyone to make out what MT7 is saying. Seriously even for a poor speaker he is illegible.

Also I was looking through the meta history, and Delta/Amanda once raised a concern that MT7 and another user called H1 was the same and requested CheckUser, at the time this was rejected due to not seemingly being enough of an issue but now that MT7 is seemingly trying to get his hands on any power at all, it seems rather pertinent that we might want to check. They seem to have a similar manner in speaking.

http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=16540

this edit in particular, which is funny because MT7 has claimed that he also uses a "open proxy"

http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=16330

I think MT7 and H1 are the exact same. just a hunch.

Also Delta seems to be butthurt anytime someone voted oppose. Also with the way he talks about Miraheze, it's as if he wants to change how the entire org works even though the whole point is that everything is hosted centrally. it's a farm ffs.

[robkelk]

...
Also Delta seems to be butthurt anytime someone voted oppose. Also with the way he talks about Miraheze, it's as if he wants to change how the entire org works even though the whole point is that everything is hosted centrally. it's a farm ffs.

I see Delta has picked up her ball and gone home again.

That's for the best, actually - she has no idea what a Steward actually does:

In my opinion, being extremely knowledgeable in all interfaces of MediaWiki should be enough to be granted Stewardship. After all, that's what stewards are responsible for - advanced interfaces.

(above quote used under the existing CC:BY-SA license)

Stewards will work with communities to address issues facing them locally such as disputes, abusive or disruptive behaviour as well as global issues such as disruptive behaviour across multiple wikis. This includes global and local right assignment, use of routine administrator permissions (delete, blocking, etc.) on local wikis and in a global sense (locking accounts, renames), CheckUser and oversight permissions.

(above quote used under the existing CC:BY-SA license)

Delta seems to think she's entitled to be a Steward. Well, here in Canada we have a story about somebody thinking he was http://www.parli.ca/im-entitled-to-my-entitlements/]entitled to his entitlements...

(This post may be quoted under CC:BY-SA or the usual Yuku license.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

It's a sad statement when I out of all people would make a better steward than that individual.

[Labster]

I'd kind of like to put up a global ban for DeltaQuad, because they take about half an hour a day of my time, but John says that it wouldn't be appropriate for the staff to ban someone.  Apparently the correct approach would be to open up an RFC for a ban, and try and persuade people there.  And I'm not sure it would really be appropriate for me to open one because I'm staff, but I guess being told "no" by every staff member hasn't deterred DeltaQuad so far.
-- ∇×V

[LulzKiller]

You guys have to set up a RFC every time you want to ban someone from Miraheze?

If the problem at ED is that there is too much bureaucrat/admin fiat, the farm's problem is that there's too little.

Also is John the guy you absolutely have to convince or do you merely have to make a consensus with other stewards/admins?

Also if you had to set-up an RFC, how many votes would you need, considering that all RFS's and the like can't even reach 20 votes total, do we have a chance of even getting enough people in?

[Labster]

Well apparently, if we going to be a community-run farm, that means that we have to ask the community to actually run things.  But not all of the things, just the community things.  But not community things like terms of service, but other community things like bans.  John isn't the guy you have to convince, he's just the only person who knows what the community things are.

labster: I just don't see where the line is.JohnLewis: the community can't vote to repeal the ToS like they can't vote to repeal bacula or an operations memberJohnLewis: the line is all the community elements onlylabster: Define community elements, then.JohnLewis: the line is really case by case. It's zagged. Anything that can be dealt with by the community - should be....labster: No, the community does matter, it's just that sometimes the community expects its leadership to act on its behalf.  You're saying that this applies to most things about running Miraheze except a certain subset, and I'm trying to figure out which subset leadership is not supposed to act in.JohnLewis: stewards and community enforced policiesJohnLewis: wiki management policies, rights managements etc, anything stewards do or are expected to do fall under the community remitJohnLewis: stewards are tools of the community after all.

Got that?
-- ∇×V

[LulzKiller]

I don't see the bit in where John says "banning obvious nuisance users as the fucking parasites they are should be decided on a vote even though global bans have never been decided before like that previous but eh I have no spine and I'm letting this fucker run rampant all throughout my farm like he owns the fucking place and tries to make sweep broad changes to the foundations at which our farm operates with absolutely zero support annoying all our regular users and staff to the point where it is affecting their ability to even oblige the the obligations at helping me run this fucking shit but eh who gives a shit?"

He's also changing the status of support tickets on Phabricator. He's literally trying to dictate the pace of Miraheze. This is utterly fucking unacceptable.

I'm saying this to you now Brian. Ban Delta. Now. If john has a problem with it fucking direct him here and let him justify the opposite in countenance with all the evidence. I don't want to dictate to all of you how to run your farm especially considering how kind and generous you guys have been but I'm more than willing to step in if it leads to shit like this.

Seriously. This is becoming a pisstake. Take action.

[GethN7]

I don't see the bit in where John says "banning obvious nuisance users as the fucking parasites they are should be decided on a vote even though global bans have never been decided before like that previous but eh I have no spine and I'm letting this fucker run rampant all throughout my farm like he owns the fucking place and tries to make sweep broad changes to the foundations at which our farm operates with absolutely zero support annoying all our regular users and staff to the point where it is affecting their ability to even oblige the the obligations at helping me run this fucking shit but eh who gives a shit?"

He's also changing the status of support tickets on Phabricator. He's literally trying to dictate the pace of Miraheze. This is utterly fucking unacceptable.

I'm saying this to you now Brian. Ban Delta. Now. If john has a problem with it fucking direct him here and let him justify the opposite in countenance with all the evidence. I don't want to dictate to all of you how to run your farm especially considering how kind and generous you guys have been but I'm more than willing to step in if it leads to shit like this.

Seriously. This is becoming a pisstake. Take action.

 

Honestly, I cannot disagree. This DeltaQuad is becoming an asp in Miraheze's bosom. I get they like to micromanage everything and have power to change things for themselves, but Miraheze is set up as a top-down enterprise with staggered levels of control to prevent idiots from breaking stuff.

I know, I was staff at Orain briefly, and having broken some stuff in my time, it's a good system for Miraheze to use as well (especially their version of it), and no, I do not believe it would be better if every wiki owner could edit their wiki settings on a case by case basis. If you really want that, go indepedent, find a wiki host that hands you all the keys, or accept what you were handed for free and be grateful someone is handling that responsibility instead of yourself.

The way they are dealing with being told no is only making my recalcitrance to trust them with any level of power worse, and watching them make an ass of themselves because people don't like how they take for granted the trust they are given has me of the opinion they need to be, at least, stripped of any power at Miraheze for the indefinite future except as a regular user, or at most, a foot needs to meet their backside and they need to be made aware they are not welcome back.

[LulzKiller]

http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=17373

What did I tell you all about H1 and MT7 being the same.

EDIT:

http://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/c ... T00:00:00Z

What the fuck is John doing. He's literally conceded, DQ can now do whatever the fuck he wants. 

[robkelk]

...
EDIT:

http://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/c ... T00:00:00Z

What the fuck is John doing. He's literally conceded, DQ can now do whatever the fuck he wants. 

As a government employee, my complaining about this could be seen as an attempt at censorship. Could somebody else ask that this be undone, please? My reason is that this change interferes with the stewards' ability to protect Miraheze as a whole from spam.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[GethN7]

...
EDIT:

http://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/c ... T00:00:00Z

What the fuck is John doing. He's literally conceded, DQ can now do whatever the fuck he wants. 

As a government employee, my complaining about this could be seen as an attempt at censorship. Could somebody else ask that this be undone, please? My reason is that this change interferes with the stewards' ability to protect Miraheze as a whole from spam.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, it's rare I consider invoking the waving of this particular sword, but this is starting to not only piss me off, but it worries me considering the stability and security of our continued hosting on Miraheze.

Therefore, I want to make it clear if this situation continues, I believe our continued future with Miraheze is in heavy doubt.

I speak for myself alone at this point, but I wanted to make it clear this situation concerns me that greatly.

[LulzKiller]

...
EDIT:

http://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/c ... T00:00:00Z

What the fuck is John doing. He's literally conceded, DQ can now do whatever the fuck he wants. 

As a government employee, my complaining about this could be seen as an attempt at censorship. Could somebody else ask that this be undone, please? My reason is that this change interferes with the stewards' ability to protect Miraheze as a whole from spam.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, it's rare I consider invoking the waving of this particular sword, but this is starting to not only piss me off, but it worries me considering the stability and security of our continued hosting on Miraheze.

Therefore, I want to make it clear if this situation continues, I believe our continued future with Miraheze is in heavy doubt.

I speak for myself alone at this point, but I wanted to make it clear this situation concerns me that greatly.

What are our courses of action here in terms of fixing this situation? Brian is a major part of the team of Miraheze and also as the largest wiki we should be able to have at least a decent amount of de facto power in order to make it clear that Miraheze won't be made a victim of one person's control freakishness. He's making a wiki about elements of the periodic table ffs it's not as if it's doing something valuable.

The first course I guess we can take is making sure the RfC regarding global rights goes for Proposal 1. I know robkelk has already done this but the more of us we can get in the majority the better, and then we can use that as the basis of telling John to grow some genitals.

http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests ... ser_rights

EDIT:
http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=17397

Labster, John is now blaming you for this whole situation, which is really nice of him considering how much work and money you provide to Miraheze.

[GethN7]

http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=17398

If we aren't taken seriously after this, I really do think it might be time we parted ways with Miraheze.

Edit;:

http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=17401

John has made himself clear on this, so I will to all fo you:

Any further actions ATT takes as a whole concerning Miraheze from this point onwards I leave to all of you to decide, I will support you however I can.

[LulzKiller]

If we were to god forbid leave, we would need to find out what the best wiki farms to migrate too would be.

[Bob Schroeck]

Joy. And just when I thought we'd settled in for good.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, and before I forget -- I just resurrected a lost trope page in the Workshop. "Cute Kids and Robots" -- now renamed "Kids and Cute Robots" to properly match the source of the name -- was deleted from TVT just before the fork. I rescued it from the Wayback Machine and have rewritten it to address some of the criticisms that led to the deletion. I'd like it if people would give it a look and help me whip it into something that is a bit more than "shows that have kids and robots in them" (with optional "that I don't like" grousing).

Thanks.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

I'll say we wait until Proposal 1 obviously passes and then remind John that the community has spoken and that we want a amicable end that means that both John and ATT can stay on Miraheze, because the loss of the biggest wiki on Miraheze wouldn't be great for either side.

If he decides to then throw another fit, then we can make contingency plans for moving.

[robkelk]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's rare I consider invoking the waving of this particular sword, but this is starting to not only piss me off, but it worries me considering the stability and security of our continued hosting on Miraheze.

Therefore, I want to make it clear if this situation continues, I believe our continued future with Miraheze is in heavy doubt.

I speak for myself alone at this point, but I wanted to make it clear this situation concerns me that greatly.

I will add to this: Wherever the All The Tropes wiki is hosted, the Poser and Daz Studio Free Resources wiki will follow.

These are the two largest public English-language wikis currently on Miraheze, so their presence or absence should be obvious.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012