All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part VIII

[GethN7]

We got another suggestion to change a long-term trope name for reasons of accuracy and usefulness to writers as opposed to flogging a long ago joke based on reference few might get now, and I agree enough I made a topic here to put a change up to a vote:

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Tnon4y6kifoi8eqa

If it is changed, I will take full responsibility for changing all pages with the term in question via my bot

[LulzKiller]

I'd like to take a note to commend SelfCloak for the creation of the Oscar Best Picture navbox. I have been one to always think that more of such would be to the better of ATT and to distinguish it from its competition.

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... st_Picture

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh yeah. What kinds of things can we do navboxes for? Right now we just have the trope lifecycle and the Oscars. Continue the award theme? Emmys, Grammys, Tonys? If the Mechanics of Writing material were a bit more substantial, I'd suggest that we do one for it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

Maybe we should expand the Oscar ones beyond just Best Picture first, and then proceed to do so for the rest of the EGOT.

[robkelk]

Oh yeah. What kinds of things can we do navboxes for? Right now we just have the trope lifecycle and the Oscars. Continue the award theme? Emmys, Grammys, Tonys?

Pulitizers, Gillers, Peabodys, "Canada Reads"?
Grammys, Junos, FPRAs?

If the Mechanics of Writing material were a bit more substantial, I'd suggest that we do one for it.

Why not make a "Mechanics of Writing" navbox? Trust in Wiki Magic to turn the red links blue.

Hmmmmm... this one might be too big, even if it's set as collapsed by default: http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... y_Cartoons
Scrap it altogether or drop sections from it?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

Oh yeah. What kinds of things can we do navboxes for? Right now we just have the trope lifecycle and the Oscars. Continue the award theme? Emmys, Grammys, Tonys?

Pulitizers, Gillers, Peabodys, "Canada Reads"?
Grammys, Junos, FPRAs?

 

There's a reason I earlier suggested the EGOT, naturally as a wiki we can cater to as many as we so wish, but as a practical basis we need to see things from a more "mainstream" route per significance per public perception; with room to expand as necessary or warranted.

If the Mechanics of Writing material were a bit more substantial, I'd suggest that we do one for it.

Why not make a "Mechanics of Writing" navbox? Trust in Wiki Magic to turn the red links blue.

Hmmmmm... this one might be too big, even if it's set as collapsed by default: http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... y_Cartoons
Scrap it altogether or drop sections from it?

Three different templates if you want to keep it (whether you do is your own judgement but I would recommend re-naming any of these templates to those that are less cast-iron and objective as "noteworthy".

1. 50 Greatest Cartoons + runners-up
   
2. 100 Greatest Looney Toons
   
3. Censored Eleven
   

I think that would suffice as both concise as templates and useful for putting as footers in articles.

[robkelk]

Oh yeah. What kinds of things can we do navboxes for? Right now we just have the trope lifecycle and the Oscars. Continue the award theme? Emmys, Grammys, Tonys?

Pulitizers, Gillers, Peabodys, "Canada Reads"?
Grammys, Junos, FPRAs?

 

There's a reason I earlier suggested the EGOT, naturally as a wiki we can cater to as many as we so wish, but as a practical basis we need to see things from a more "mainstream" route per significance per public perception; with room to expand as necessary or warranted.

The Pulitizer is extremely "mainstream", even outside of the country where it's awarded - it's second only to the Nobel.

As for the other awards, I'm completely in favour of anything that makes All The Tropes less US-centric.

Hmmmmm... this one might be too big, even if it's set as collapsed by default: http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... y_Cartoons
Scrap it altogether or drop sections from it?

Three different templates if you want to keep it (whether you do is your own judgement but I would recommend re-naming any of these templates to those that are less cast-iron and objective as "noteworthy".

1. 50 Greatest Cartoons + runners-up
   
2. 100 Greatest Looney Toons
   
3. Censored Eleven
   

I think that would suffice as both concise as templates and useful for putting as footers in articles.

That works for the 50 and 100 lists, but the "Censored Eleven" only has the one page currently and the subject matter is such that Wiki Magic might not be able to work.

And if these cartoons aren't noteworthy, I don't know what would be...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

Pulitizers, Gillers, Peabodys, "Canada Reads"?
Grammys, Junos, FPRAs?

 

There's a reason I earlier suggested the EGOT, naturally as a wiki we can cater to as many as we so wish, but as a practical basis we need to see things from a more "mainstream" route per significance per public perception; with room to expand as necessary or warranted.

The Pulitizer is extremely "mainstream", even outside of the country where it's awarded - it's second only to the Nobel.

As for the other awards, I'm completely in favour of anything that makes All The Tropes less US-centric.

Hmmmmm... this one might be too big, even if it's set as collapsed by default: http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... y_Cartoons
Scrap it altogether or drop sections from it?

Three different templates if you want to keep it (whether you do is your own judgement but I would recommend re-naming any of these templates to those that are less cast-iron and objective as "noteworthy".

1. 50 Greatest Cartoons + runners-up
   
2. 100 Greatest Looney Toons
   
3. Censored Eleven
   

I think that would suffice as both concise as templates and useful for putting as footers in articles.

That works for the 50 and 100 lists, but the "Censored Eleven" only has the one page currently and the subject matter is such that Wiki Magic might not be able to work.

And if these cartoons aren't noteworthy, I don't know what would be...

I misintrepreted your earnestness for sarcasm per what we should be giving navboxes to per awards. If the Nobel for Literature is your priority, I don't object to you doing it. I was assuming you didn't have priority, so I was suggesting some of the most well known and regarded as starting points.

If it's mostly red links, maybe that specific part of the template should be saved for another day; especially if you don't see a short-term fix.

The noteworthy thing doesn't have the context of why they were given that status, as it mentions nothing about the author who wrote about these in the books in which those three sections come from. You're inevitably going to get users/readers who know nothing about the context that we both know about it asking why a Disney section wasn't added in, or a Hanna-Barbera section; god forbid a fucking Cartoon Network or Dreamworks one. Are you beginning to understand where I'm coming from there; especially since you're talking about keeping templates small. What becomes noteworthy versus exceptional; this is where personal bias really begins to kick in.

[Labster]

Where you're coming from Lulzkiller, is ED which has too damn many large navigation templates.  I'm not opposed to lots of them, if they're kept pretty small.  Media franchises could each get their own.
But in the grand plan, I'd almost like the Wikipedia right-side infobox.  Things that would be listed: Genre, Medium, Episode count/volume count, production dates, laconic description, [[Central Theme].  We need to avoid the whole wtf-is-this-page phenomenon.    A trope equivalent would be laconic description, older than..., namer, ur example, maybe categories?  And I think doing this would more worthwhile than making navigation templates, but likely much harder.
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

Ooh, I like that.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LulzKiller]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... t_Director

Adding my own contribution, 1/2 red links but it's good enough

[robkelk]

Where you're coming from Lulzkiller, is ED which has too damn many large navigation templates.  I'm not opposed to lots of them, if they're kept pretty small.  Media franchises could each get their own.

But in the grand plan, I'd almost like the Wikipedia right-side infobox.  Things that would be listed: Genre, Medium, Episode count/volume count, production dates, laconic description, [[Central Theme].  We need to avoid the whole wtf-is-this-page phenomenon.    A trope equivalent would be laconic description, older than..., namer, ur example, maybe categories?  And I think doing this would more worthwhile than making navigation templates, but likely much harder.

I have experience with this sort of infobox - we use them extensively on the freebie wiki.

Before I code one, let's decide what we want in them, because re-coding them if the specs change is a right royal pain. It might be best to make a selection of infoboxes, since what makes sense for a record album doesn't make sense for a TV series...

EDIT: For example, the front-end to a possible manga infobox - data copied from Anime News Network.

{{infobox manga
| title = Oh My Goddess!
| image = Bell-keiichi2.jpg
| caption =
| author = [[Kousuke Fujishima]
| artist = [[Kousuke Fujishima]
| publisher = Kodansha (Japan)Dark Horse Comics (North America)Titan Books (UK)Pika Édition (France)Grupo Editorial Vid (Mexico)Planeta DeAgostini Comics (Spain)Edizioni Star Comics (Italy)Egmont Manga & Anime (Germany)Japonica Polonica Fantastica (Poland)Egmont Kärnan (Sweden)Tong Li Publishing Co., Ltd. (Taiwan)
| genre = [[Magical Girlfriend]
| volume count = 48
| first publication dates = 1989-08-23 - 2014-07-23
| laconic = She shows up to grant him a wish. He wishes for her.
| Central Theme = Being the best person you can be, no matter what the circumstances are.
}}

I can even code the infobox to add "Categoryages Needing Images" to the page if the "image" line is left blank. I might be able to code a SUBST to add the page name as the title if the "title" line is left blank, but I won't promise that; it might be processor-intensive.

RE-EDIT: I have a busy weekend this weekend - if somebody could copy Template:Infobox and its prerequisites over from Wikipedia (not the Commons) to All The Tropes, I'd appreciate it. We might want to grab the template's doc page at the same time, so that other folks can code custom infoboxes as well.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... t_Director

Adding my own contribution, 1/2 red links but it's good enough

That's a better percentage than the one I just posted:
http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Template: ... ds_Winners
(Out of 16 entries, 1 is not a redlink.)

Then again, the tropes wikis have always been better at covering moving-pictures than they have been at covering dead-trees.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LulzKiller]

Tropers do love literature, just of a very certain sort...

[robkelk]

Posted for consideration: a second possible infobox.

If I don't hear any feedback about this or the manga infobox a few posts up by Wednesday, I'll assume nobody has any suggestions on how to change them.

{{infobox episode
| title = Necessary Evil
| image =
| caption =
| show = Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
| season = 02
| episode = 08
| first airdate = November 14, 1993
| preceded by = [[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine/Recap/S02/E07 Rules of Acquisition|Rules of Acquisition]
| followed by = [[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine/Recap/S02/E09 Second Sight|Second Sight]
| elevator pitch = When Quark is shot, Odo re-opens a five-year-old murder case.
}}

EDIT: changed "series" to "show" - a UK series is a US season, and a US series is a UK show, so let's avoid the confusion right from the start.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

(dope-slaps own head)

Or I could just copy infoboxes from Wikipedia...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Here's an idea for one:

Animation Timeline: The Silent Age of Animation, The Golden Age of Animation, The Dark Age of Animation, The Renaissance Age of Animation.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

I personally dislike the idea of simply tossing an entire section of examples. Is anything in it prurient or actionable? (I'm at work, I'm not going to look at it until I'm at home, just to be on the safe side.)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

I personally dislike the idea of simply tossing an entire section of examples. Is anything in it prurient or actionable? (I'm at work, I'm not going to look at it until I'm at home, just to be on the safe side.)

Nothing in Professional Sex Ed#Real Life is prurient. There are five entries: two are general cases, two reference particular books (so we can say we were reporting on the contents of those books if we're sued), and one is an aversion.

However, there's also Too Kinky to Torture#Real Life (not including a link here)... Thirteen examples, some of which might be prurient, actionable, or both.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Labster]

Rob, maybe edit the template to make your stock phrases default options?  Like {{noreallife|squick=1}}
I feel like real life sections should, in general, be limited to notable things.  I'm just imagining an example for Freudian Trio like "* [[This Troper] and his two friends.  Geth is the id, Brent is the superego, and Bob is the ego."  It might be interesting to the poster, but does anyone else care?
Anyway, the real reason I'm posting is because I wanted to get y'all's input on alphabetization rules.  Style Guide stuff.  Now that I have a bot that has been automatically alphabetizing tropelists, I need a clear set of rules, because some of the changes surprised me. 

• I decided that tropes should not be alphabetized based on English articles.  This means that [[The Dragon] would float up to the D's, soon to be joined by [[A Day in the Limelight].  [[La Dolce Vita] will not be joining them.  But it looks like the existing rule put the "A" tropes at the top while mixing in the "the"s.  Was my choice the correct one?
• I have a general belief that spaces should be sorted before non-spaces.  So "Modern Tropes" would sort before "Modernism".  Should I ignore the spaces instead?  This seemed to be the TVT standard, because of sorting on CamelCase.
• What about punctuation?  Should hyphens be considered in sort order?  Should commas or quote marks?  We've got a lot of parentheses, too.  Both spaces and punctuation are part of the unicode standard's 'variable' block (see UTS #10), which means the programmer SHOULD choose how to handle it.  Right now I'm ignoring punctuation for sort order (well actually considering at level 4, "tiebreaker").  Is this the best approach?

As usual Unicode is a rabbit hole of natural language edge cases and implementation problems, but at least it gets you to think about the right questions.
-- ∇×V

[robkelk]

We could edit the template, sure. We'd just need to update the existing uses of the template so that they wouldn't be broken if the template is changed.

I'm old enough to remember how telephone books sorted entries:

• Ignore articles (a, an, the, le, la, les, and so on) at the beginning of the name but keep them in the remainder of the name
  
• Ignore spaces
  
• Ignore punctuation
  
• Ignore case
  
• Treat accented characters as non-accented characters
  
• Spell out numbers
  

(Although that last condition has ambiguities - for example, does one spell "1984" as "one thousand nine hundred eighty four" and sort it under O or as "nineteen hundred eighty four" and sort it under N?)

On the freebie wiki, we're using the "ignore articles at the beginning of the name" and "treat accented characters as non-accented characters" rules, but otherwise sorting by Unicode UTF-8 order (which means sorting on spaces) ... although I am cheating slightly by giving all index pages a defaultsort key of a single space so that they appear together in category listings.

I like the "ignore articles at the beginning of the name" rule, and I know Bob also uses it - but we grew up with it. Has anybody commented on it one way or the other? If general users hate it, we should stop implementing it; if general users like it or don't care, we should continue implementing it and get those "A " pages where they belong.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[GethN7]

Brent recently decided to restore my mod bit, as can been seen in the user rights log, and while I do plan to use it for ATT related duties when needed, I have other matters I'm working on now.

In accordance with private matters the two of us have discussed, I will be refraining from certain activities that necessitated why I demodded myself willinglly for however long is needed in accordance with things we discussed privately.

In the event I am seen as causing a disruption that could bring harm to ATT, on or off wiki, call me out again, and I will willingly hand over power for however is seen as justifiable, as the last thing I want to do is bring harm to ATT by my actions, either directly or indirectly.

[Bob Schroeck]

Standard alphabetization rules that I grew up with included:

* Ignoring the article, which I think we're all in agreement on. I've been setting DEFAULTSORT on anything starting with "a/an/the" so that they're ignored by automatic sorting on the wiki.
* Space counts, and comes before letters.
* Ignore punctuation. I've been setting the occasional DEFAULTSORT to handle this as well.
* Numerals before letters; don't sort as though they were spelled out.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

All this talk about alphabetization rules and leading articles made me realize we didn't have a page for the '80s UK post-punk band "The The" - so I slapped together a stub, and am waiting for the 504 and 503 errors to stop so that I can actually add it to the wiki.

Yes, I've included {{DEFAULTSORT:The, The}} in the text. I know that in this particular case it does nothing, but it's there to show we know about the definite article at the start of the page name.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Labster]

So I think I had already implemented what Bob suggested.  Specifically I'm doing:
Unicode::Collate->new( variable => 'shifted', entry => "0020  ; [.0209.0020.0002] # SPACE
"  )
Which is to say to use the use the UCS 10 collation, using punctuation and whitespace as the last level tiebreaker, but to treat a normal space as a standard character and consider it at level 1 instead.  In theory I should add some of the other whitespace characters, like maybe full-width space, but I really doubt that's going to be an issue.
From the standards document:[table]