[OOC][Brainstorming] Intelligent Devices for non-"Lyrical Nanoha" mages

[robkelk]

Black Aeronaut mentioned in a recent post in another thread that he expects the Sailor Senshi will end up with Lyrical Nanoha style Devices eventually. This thread is to brainstorm what those Devices might be... and we may as well generalize it to all the spellcasters. As usual with brainstorming sessions, no idea is too off-the-wall to not mention, although some ideas might be quietly dropped from consideration because they go in odd directions.

Let's start off with a list of what I'd like to discuss to begin with. Brainstorming sessions often go off on tangents, and that's a good thing, but we need a starting point for the tangents to go off from.

As I understand it, the average Midchildan or Belkan Intelligent Device (and the above-average ones like Raising Heart, Bardiche, and Graf Eisen) assist their masters by casting minor spells (usually but not always defensive) by drawing upon their masters' magical power reserves, and help with their masters' mathematical calculations for the really big spells. I don't know how much help the Sailor Senshi, or Sakura and Shaoran, or the Fate/Stay Night mages, or the Madoka Magica girls would get from that sort of device, since their magic doesn't appear to have a mathematical component. (Also, Ami already has the Mercury Computer.)

(Interestingly, some of the Academy City espers might find this sort of Device useful, since some Skills - including Electromaster, Teleport, and Aero Hand - have mathematical components in their use. Washuu-chan might have already implanted the equivalent of one in Accelerator to offset the brain damage he took in canon when he was shot while healing Last Order.)

However, the Belkans had something else which the Senshi could use: Unison Devices. A well-designed Unison Device offsets its master's weaknesses and supports its master's strengths, at the cost of having two minds in one body. And we've seen an example of the dangers of a malfunctioning Unison Device: the control program of the Book of Darkness before Hayate renamed it "Reinforce".

Who would risk using a Unison Device? (Consider that the TSAB isn't around to help debug them... but Washuu-chan is.) And what would they do, and what would their personalities be like?

Of the Sailor Senshi, only Usagi has flight capability - and that's winged flight, no hovering. Hyoga is also a winged flyer. Sakura can fly (and hover) with The Fly. Kero-chan and Yue can fly. Everybody else is grounded... so flight capability would be useful.

Defense would be good - most of the mages in the setting are glass-cannons, compared to the average metahuman. (Hyoga's the obvious exception here - you'd almost think she was a Evangelion Angel, not a Judeo-Christian one.) But what sort of defense?

And what else would be useful?

The floor is now open for discussion.

[Norgarth]

Could Ami upgrade the Mercury Computer into a Device?

[Labster]

Could HAL upgrade the Mercury Computer into a Device? It always seemed to me that the technical part was more limited than the magic part.

In the manga canon, all the sailor senshi had interplanetary spaceflight capability while transformed. Usagi and Galaxia had interstellar flight speeds. And uh, they all appear to fly in the S opening. Which is all my way of saying: are you sure they can't fly? Are they sure they can't fly? I think it's time to try defying gravity.

Is the Ginzuishou a Device?

Sakura also has Float in addition to Fly. And uh, can fly with other cards, say Create + Firey for lighter-than-air travel. Or Change to become a bird. TIMTOWTDI. Her cards are probably each intelligent devices with a limited scope. Shaoran could probably use a Device, since he relies on ofuda and that compass thingy for a lot of his magic, it might be useful to centralize it -- especially if it can be used as a physical weapon too.

Uh, Brent might be crazy enough to try out a Unison Device. (Which is to say, I might be crazy enough to do it.) Unless Yomi talks him out of it.

[Epsilon]

Well, I mean the obvious analog for the Devices in the Sailor Moon manga are:

https://sailormoon.fandom.com/wiki/Sailo..._Guardians

or maybe

https://sailormoon.fandom.com/wiki/Sailo...7s_Castles

So basically they have (in the manga at least) helper AI who can boost their powers already to turn them into higher form Senshi by drawing on magitech marvels. It's just their versions are giant floating palaces around the planets.

So if they're on Earth with no Castle they may have been weakened until someone fixes the issue.

[Labster]

Oh right, I've got two more capable of flight, Sora and Layla.  And probably Sugar, Salt, and Pepper.  And Entchen, our only character with non-magical, non-technological flight so far. I guess Aria House is lousy with fliers.

Actually, where are Phobos and Deimos?  (Maybe they found a place on rooking.com?)

Magic theory spoiler

Now it's a choice of whether to give Entchen a device, or to let Sakura make her one, kind of on first principles.  Entchen does not have Drosselmeyer's gem, nor does she know where Fakir is.  She can still transform, but without a focus it's very difficult, and she can't keep human form.  When transformed, instead of the normal red gem, it will be her pure heart crystal.  Using one's own soul as a focus is great for extreme cases, but is generally suboptimal.

Sora and Layla don't have great ability in flight, but that's because it works more like Sakura's Faith card than her Fly card.

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm... The Sailor Power Guardians (and the castles) are manga-only, and I'm using the anime continuity - but their designs can certainly be used as inspirations for the Senshi's Unison Devices.

Can they fly already? Maybe... but normal-human lead characters in other anime also fly in their shows' opening credits.

Is the Ginzuishou a Device?

Intriguing question. We've had a scene where Rin Tohsaka used it as a gem (and didn't drain it completely), but she was looking at it through her own magical paradigm.


Oh, and quoting from Rei's page on the wiki: "Rei's familiars/guardians/spirit-guides haven't shown up yet... maybe they're waiting for spring." This is what's known as a hint (especially since I've already uploaded an image of them).


(EDIT: And I just noticed: If you have Firefox set up with the separate search box on the search bar, you can add https://www.acronymfinder.com to it as a custom search location. You can also add https://allthetropes.org/ or any other MediaWiki wiki to it, but I knew that already.)

[robkelk]

Okay, let's try an example: Guardian Jupiter. Obviously, she's going to be Sailor Jupiter's Unison Device. Poke holes in this, please.

Appearance and personality: Looks like Makoto Kino, but 1/12 scale (so 14 cm tall). Body by Piffle, processor by Washuu, linker core (in forest green) and Unison capability by Hayate, Sakura, and Usagi. Just for fun, get somebody to sample Emi Shinohara's performances as Makoto to assemble her voice file. (Since we've established that the displacees don't sound like their seiyuu, Guardian Jupiter won't sound exactly like Makoto but will sound like the "Sailor Jupiter" stereotype.) Her personality is complimentary to Makoto's; the most obvious difference that Guardian Jupiter has less of a tendency to need to prove herself than Makoto does.

Magical support capability: Pre-programmed with all the "electric" magic from the Mercury Computer and the Tome of the Night Sky / Book of Darkness.

Main defensive spell: Electric Shield. Visually equivalent to a Midchildan "Round Shield", but electrostatic instead of mage-force... which means it's a more powerful defense against electromagnetic and ferrous-metal attacks than a Round Shield is, but a less powerful defense against other attacks.

Flight capability: As per what Bob worked out in... Bob, have you published the chapter of Drunkard's Walk where you describe how electrokinetics fly? (Sometimes being a prereader sucks. Just where did I read that tidbit? Anyway.) Faster than Nanoha for as long as the electrons keep coming, not as fast as Fate even on Guardian Jupiter's best day and Fate's worst.

Other Support: Pre-programmed with all the recipes from Sasami's cookbook that she's willing to share, and at least a basic knowledge of flower arrangement.

Obvious hole in the programming: No martial arts skills. (If Makoto wants to get better there, she'll just have to spar with Mii and learn the skills the hard way.)

Introduction in the story: "Body by Piffle" means the earliest that the work can even start on her is mid-January 2017, and that's only if they drop everything they're working on to get a persocom production line going and work on this instead. More likely, development work would start in spring 2017 (roughly when Phobos and Deimos are "scheduled" to show up)... and Reinforce Zwei comes before any other Device. Guardian Jupiter might not show up until Makoto's 17th birthday, in December 2017.

[robkelk]

Another example, completely off-the-wall: Chibi-Mimi, Mimi Hanyu's Unison Device. Again, poke holes in this, please.

Appearance and personality: Looks like Mimi Hanyu, but 1/12 scale. Body by Piffle, processor by Washuu, linker core (orange with black highlights) and Unison capability by Hayate, Sakura, and Usagi. Much like Guardian Jupiter, get somebody to sample Mika Kanai's performances as Mimete to assemble her voice file. No, that will be suggested, but Mii and Ami will point out that Mimi's trying to avoid reminders of her time as Mimete - a substantially less squeaky-kawaii voice is in order here. (Maybe ask Mimi herself to read the phoneme script used to program Chibi-Mimi's voice synth?) Her personality will have a lot of "don't be evil" locks in it, because Minako, Luna, and Kuroko still don't trust Mimi (and Luna probably never will trust her completely).

Magical support: Pre-programmed with a broad range of simple spells - the Midchildan equivalent of everything from the GURPS Basic Set that doesn't have a prerequisite spell, require any levels of Magery, or is from the Mind Control college: Detect Magic, Haste, Ignite Fire, Itch, Light, Purify Air, Seek Earth, Seek Water, and Sense Foes. She's also have the equivalent of Deflect Energy and Shield because they're needed for Round Shield, and the equivalent of Shape Fire because that's needed for Deflect Energy.

Main defensive spell: the bog-standard Midchildan Round Shield (which is more powerful that the GURPS "Shield" spell because it doesn't need to be in front of the caster).

Flight capability: "Are we sure we want Mimi flying? What if she's still Mimete?" So... no, sorry, you're stuck on the ground.

Other Support: Pre-programmed with the skills she needs to teach her pre-programmed spells and skills to Mimi (SI-Rob wants Mimi to learn her own spells, but she'll need at least a few spells as examples), business administration skills (Mimi's (becoming) an actress; she needs somebody to make sure she isn't getting ripped off by an unscrupulous agent), and the scripts to many of the more famous plays that are in public domain.

Obvious hole in the programming: Lots of them, due to Luna, Minako, and Kuroko's paranoia. Primarily, Chibi-Mimi has no offensive capability whatsoever... until she and Mimi figure out ways to use what they do know offensively.

Introduction in the story: After Guardian Jupiter.

[Bob Schroeck]

Flight capability: As per what Bob worked out in... Bob, have you published the chapter of Drunkard's Walk where you describe how electrokinetics fly? (Sometimes being a prereader sucks. Just where did I read that tidbit? Anyway.) Faster than Nanoha for as long as the electrons keep coming, not as fast as Fate even on Guardian Jupiter's best day and Fate's worst.

One of the places that's in is the fight with Jadeite at the end of DW-S 2, so yeah, it's been published.  <grin>

It took me only an afternoon to figure out how Silverbolt flew
instinctively, not long after she joined the Warriors.  Figuring
out how to do it *myself* -- that took me nearly four decades.  
But once I'd mastered it, I could do it almost without thought
with the right song:  a set of rotating and counter-rotating
currents creating a "harness" with which I hung myself on the
Earth's own magnetic field, paired with a pure brute force ion
drive built from more current-driven fields, strong enough to
push me at a couple hundred KPH in atmosphere.

[robkelk]

Thanks.

[Dartz]

Nanoha magic is just really fancy math?

.... like what cybernetic brains are capable of?

Nah.... I should finish writing what I have on my plate first.

[robkelk]

Finish what you have going... then we can figure out how to give the 33-Ss and Data some Linker Cores so they can cast spells.

[Black Aeronaut]

I'll get to this in a bit.  Lately my brain has been kinda fried what with everything that's been going on here, so it's hard for me to give this my usual sort of focus. 

[Labster]

Finish what you have going... then we can figure out how to give the 33-Ss and Data some Linker Cores so they can cast spells.

This event is considered by most historians to be the end of the Human Age, and the onset of the 1.0 Electronic Age.

[Dartz]

Finish what you have going... then we can figure out how to give the 33-Ss and Data some Linker Cores so they can cast spells.

This event is considered by most historians to be the end of the Human Age, and the onset of the 1.0 Electronic Age.

The human age is overrated.

When your consciousness has been adapted to a boomer frame, you will understand.

[robkelk]

Meh - there will always be a need for more human brains. Right Agent Smith?

---

More seriously, no comments about the proposed Unison Devices?

[Labster]

> (Mimi's (becoming) an actress; she needs somebody to make sure she isn't getting ripped off by an unscrupulous agent)

There's no power in the 'verse that can stop Hollywood accounting. Not even magic.

I don't have much to say beyond, "seems cool", you know. I'm not an expert on Midchildan magic. I don't know GURPS, so I can't get at the mechanics of that. The one GURPS game I played in, I managed to completely derail about midway through the first session -- which, given the setting was Discworld, I wear as something of a badge of honor. Yeah, I think Mimi would want one. I mean, I want one. A miniature Yotsuba Koiwai would be amazing, thanks.

I had forgotten that Mimi didn't appear until January. I think that might put off a battle I'm having. Does Mimi actually understand how the Witches 5 tech works, or did she just use it? Didn't Eudial invent the Witches Electric Warp, but it was too dangerous to use? Just curious if Mimi knows how to make one of guns Eudial had, the ones that shot Pure Heart Crystals out of people. Asking for a friend.

<osaka>Oh, and Chiyo can use her twintails to fly, right guys?</osaka>

[robkelk]

The idea is for Mimi to get a selection of what D&D calls "cantrips" - minor spells of minor utility - but enough of them so that she can figure out how they work and make her own spells on the same principles.

And, according to the what the Sailor Moon wikia says about the supplementary works, Mimi really liked using magic, and she was working in a research environment. I could see her knowing the principles behind Witches magic, even if using it would remind her of being Mimete.

[Black Aeronaut]

If being reminded of her time as Mimete is an issue for her, then remind her that she's breaking the mold that was Mimete because she's not using it for evil purposes, and she is therefore not Mimete.

[robkelk]

As I understand it, the average Midchildan or Belkan Intelligent Device (and the above-average ones like Raising Heart, Bardiche, and Graf Eisen) assist their masters by casting minor spells (usually but not always defensive) by drawing upon their masters' magical power reserves, and help with their masters' mathematical calculations for the really big spells. I don't know how much help the Sailor Senshi, or Sakura and Shaoran, or the Fate/Stay Night mages, or the Madoka Magica girls would get from that sort of device, since their magic doesn't appear to have a mathematical component. (Also, Ami already has the Mercury Computer.)

Okay, I got at least part of that wrong. Quoting from All The Tropes: "Some of the math questions that appear on the board in Puella Magi Madoka Magica for an eighth grade math class are taken from, among other places, the entrance exam for Tokyo University. More information here." So at least these magical girls can use an Intelligent Device... even if only to help with their homework.

[Black Aeronaut]

Just knowing the basics puts them ahead of the curve.

And Tokyo-U!?!? The hell is up with that school!? I thought it was just an upscale middle school!

[Labster]

Todai is pretty interesting. Within Japan, it's considered on par with how we consider Harvard or Oxford in the English-speaking world. Random facts I did not know from the wikipedia page:
* The lower division is a separate campus one attends for two years, which essentially makes it Japan's most prestigious junior college.
* More grads than undergrads -- kinda like Harvard
* Size is only 28k students, which seems kinda small when you went to a UC school :/

@Rob all those math problems do is remind me how much I hate pure mathematics. I can do them all except the Fermat's little theorem one. I was never taught modular arithmetic in school -- but I do use it a bit for work. I worry about making making our magic too mathy, otherwise we'll get Donald Duck kicking butt straight out of Mathmagic Land. (Yet another temptation to put Stella Anatium somewhere up there in the galaxy.)

[Black Aeronaut]

Todai is pretty interesting.  Within Japan, it's considered on par with how we consider Harvard or Oxford in the English-speaking world.  Random facts I did not know from the wikipedia page:
* The lower division is a separate campus one attends for two years, which essentially makes it Japan's most prestigious junior college.
* More grads than undergrads -- kinda like Harvard
* Size is only 28k students, which seems kinda small when you went to a UC school :/

@Rob all those math problems do is remind me how much I hate pure mathematics.  I can do them all except the Fermat's little theorem one.  I was never taught modular arithmetic in school -- but I do use it a bit for work.  I worry about making making our magic too mathy, otherwise we'll get Donald Duck kicking butt straight out of Mathmagic Land.  (Yet another temptation to put Stella Anatium somewhere up there in the galaxy.)

Yeah, Todai is THE SHIT over there.  It's like someone combined the prestige of Oxford, Harvard, and Johns Hopkins all into one little school.

What's more, to be able to say something like "I teach English American Literature at Tokyo University" would probably be one helluva feather in your cap.

Re: Donald Duck - you say that like its a bad thing~.

*Imagines TSAB calling dibs on the former US Navy duck...*

[robkelk]

Todai is pretty interesting.  Within Japan, it's considered on par with how we consider Harvard or Oxford in the English-speaking world.  Random facts I did not know from the wikipedia page:
* The lower division is a separate campus one attends for two years, which essentially makes it Japan's most prestigious junior college.
* More grads than undergrads -- kinda like Harvard
* Size is only 28k students, which seems kinda small when you went to a UC school :/

If anybody who has appeared in the stories is qualified to attend Todai, it's Ami. And Skuld, of course, but I see her attending Nekomi Tech (Chihiro, Keiichi, Megumi, and Sora's school) instead if she bothers to attend a mortal school.

@Rob all those math problems do is remind me how much I hate pure mathematics.  I can do them all except the Fermat's little theorem one.  I was never taught modular arithmetic in school -- but I do use it a bit for work.  I worry about making making our magic too mathy, otherwise we'll get Donald Duck kicking butt straight out of Mathmagic Land.  (Yet another temptation to put Stella Anatium somewhere up there in the galaxy.)

Yeah - I used to think I had a talent for math, but what I really had a talent for is arithmetic. (Hey, somebody has to do it.) All of those problems went over my head, although I can puzzle out the provided answers.

(Interestingly, when I put "Stella Anatium" into DuckDuckGo, the first result that came up was the "Watsonian Versus Doylist" page on All The Tropes. I think this is a sign.)

[Labster]

Oh Fermat's little theorem is part of modular arithmetic. No wonder I don't know it, then.

I'm tempted to say Chiyo is qualified to attend Todai, but she would have a very hard time getting in due to her age -- which is why it was a plot point that she was going to America. Sakaki probably could too, but no veterinary school. Having attended a vet med school, it makes me aware of how few there are. Oh, right, and in Japan you begin veterinary school as an undergrad, unlike here.

I mention Donald Duck, but I'd probably be the one to have to write him. I'm the one with like 300 issues of DD and U$. I'd go with the Barks and Rosa stories which sets the technology level to the 1960s. Although I do have a soft spot in my heart for Brigitta MacBridge, as I do for all tsunderes. I guess if I want to get back on topic, does Magica de Spell need a Device?