COVID-19 & US healthcare system - thread relapse

[SilverFang01]

Is spreading coronavirus a crime?


I can't believe that people are actually weaponizing COVID-19... wait, yes I can.

Remember in the last decades of the previous century, when it was believed that the Information Age would connect everyone and put the sum of human knowledge at our fingertips bringing understanding and enlightenment?

[SilverFang01]

Mitch McConnell (R-Russia) being all heart:
McConnell Says States Should Consider Bankruptcy, Rebuffing Calls for Aid

Senator Mitch McConnell took a hard line on Wednesday against giving cash-short states more federal aid in future emergency pandemic relief legislation, saying that those suffering steep shortfalls amid the coronavirus crisis should instead consider bankruptcy.

“I think this whole business of additional assistance for state and local governments needs to be thoroughly evaluated,” Mr. McConnell, Republican of Kentucky and the majority leader, said in an interview with the conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt. “There’s not going to be any desire on the Republican side to bail out state pensions by borrowing money from future generations.”

[Matrix Dragon]

Wait, isn't stealing money from everyone else the Republican and McConnell way?

[hazard]

And haven't the Republicans been rather aggressively been borrowing money from future generations since long before this current president's administration?

[classicdrogn]

Trump will soon be making noises of "hydroxychloroquine? Never heard of it"

It may've brought covfefe for him once or twice.  Or was that Stephanie Grisham?

But give them some credit - they're absolutely sure it was COVID nineteen, not COVID one, or fifteen or seventeen. I don't know anything about her or if she even ever worked there but it's perfectly legal, I can tell you that!

[robkelk]

Georgia Governor orders state re-opened on Friday.

Yes. This Friday.

Despite all of the medical advice to the contrary.

Well, nice of them to volunteer as (bad) example/petrie dish  

...

Not sure how well that's going to work.

Hugh Acheson says he will not be opening his four restaurants in Georgia, U.S., despite the governor's plans to allow food establishments to reopen on Monday.

You might know of Hugh Acheson from Top Chef or Iron Chef.

The Governor might be able to force the mayors into going along with this scheme, but he can't force the actual people affected to go along... and if enough refuse to re-open, the physical distancing will continue no matter what.

[hazard]

The problem is that there is definitely going to be a sizable section of the population that will reopen under the presumption things are going on as normal and that the disease has been beaten. And that section will be large enough that by the time it becomes clear it was not, there's going to be a whole lot of cases that need attending.

[LynnInDenver]

Yeah, I did inform my husband that we were waiting at least a couple of weeks before we even have ones or twos over to the house once they start relaxing the orders. Technically we're still going to be doing "safe" at home, while not mandatory, it's still highly recommended in Colorado to only do "essential" trips, most retail is going to start at curbside pickup and highly limited occupancy, and I expect a lot of places still won't open, either because it's not economically viable until the restrictions are at 20% or less of where we've been, or because of the whole "lack of confidence" issue.

I do agree that the ones that are like, "we beat this, and it was an overreaction, let's get back to what we were doing" is going to be large enough that we're going to have a serious spike. Hopefully not exceeding the expanded hospital capacity.

[hazard]

Your optimism is wonderful.

I fear it's going to be misplaced.

[Dartz]

We're beating it - but it doesn't feel like an overreaction.

It got into the nursing homes through the rotating staff and ate the elderly alive.

[SilverFang01]

Today during the briefing:

“We’re very close to a vaccine,” Trump said, before immediately contradicting himself. “We’re not close on testing” the vaccine, he clarified.

Does any of that make sense?

The president said “you won’t even believe” how the virus reacts to sunlight.

“Supposing you brought the light inside the body - either through the skin or some other way,” Trump wondered.

Now we are trying to recreate an episode of Star Trek

He also mused about ways to use disinfectants on people, “by injections inside or almost a cleaning.”

“It’d be interesting to check that,” the president said. “You’d have to use medical doctors.”

The DHS’s Bryan is asked about the president’s suggestions that disinfectants be injected into a person. “We don’t do that within our lab,” Bryan said.

“Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work,” Trump interjected — but disinfectants like isopropyl alcohol definitely has an effect on “stationary objects.”

I am NOT taking an injection of Clorox. I don't care what the president* says.

“Medical doctors,” should see “if there any way to apply light and heat to cure”, the president said. He asked Dr Deborah Birx if that’s possible.

“It’s just a suggestion,” Trump said. “If heat is good and if sunlight is good, that’s a great thing as far as I’m concerned.”

<facepalm>

[Labster]

We all need to start treating these daily presidential briefings with the degree of seriousness reserved for other bad improv comedy.

[hazard]

Today during the briefing:

“We’re very close to a vaccine,” Trump said, before immediately contradicting himself. “We’re not close on testing” the vaccine, he clarified.

Does any of that make sense?

Sort of. IIRC there's something like 70 different vaccines being worked at for COVID-19, many of which are taking absurdly short routes to testing for effectiveness and safety. And I mean absurdly short routes, several vaccines have already had the requirement for animal testing waved for them because SARS-COV-2 is so new a virus we don't have a test animal we can use to do the animal trials on, and the work necessary to determine which animal if any is the best option would delay the vaccine testing process by months at best.

Many vaccines are getting to the stage they can be tested however, which means that in theory we do have a functional vaccine nearly to completion. We just don't know if any of those vaccines are sufficiently safe to use compared to the risk of not using the vaccine.

The president said “you won’t even believe” how the virus reacts to sunlight.

“Supposing you brought the light inside the body - either through the skin or some other way,” Trump wondered.

Now we are trying to recreate an episode of Star Trek

Radiation therapy is very good and useful for a variety of illnesses. The sort of large area and high power irradiation of the body that would be needed to deal with a virus like this would do massive damage on its own, and that's if it doesn't outright kill you from radiation poisoning.

He also mused about ways to use disinfectants on people, “by injections inside or almost a cleaning.”

“It’d be interesting to check that,” the president said. “You’d have to use medical doctors.”

The DHS’s Bryan is asked about the president’s suggestions that disinfectants be injected into a person. “We don’t do that within our lab,” Bryan said.

“Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work,” Trump interjected — but disinfectants like isopropyl alcohol definitely has an effect on “stationary objects.”

I am NOT taking an injection of Clorox. I don't care what the president* says.

Disinfectants also have an effect on non-stationary objects, and that effect is usually that the previously non-stationary object is definitely and fatally stationary now.

“Medical doctors,” should see “if there any way to apply light and heat to cure”, the president said. He asked Dr Deborah Birx if that’s possible.

“It’s just a suggestion,” Trump said. “If heat is good and if sunlight is good, that’s a great thing as far as I’m concerned.”

<facepalm>

Light and heat could be part of the effort to excise COVID-19 from society. It's just that when it's inside a body, the sort of conditions that would be necessary to destroy the disease would do massively greater damage to the body it's in.

[SilverFang01]

This is a piece on why America has so much trouble building things. The short answer is that all institutions -- including
private sector ones -- have become "vetocracies." Power is dispersed in a way that makes it easy for any of a widely distributed group of actors
to veto any significant initiative. These factors all existed before, but have grown radically over the last 40 years. Some of this is in
reaction to previous abuses, and not all vetoes are bad. But the combination of vetoes taken together becomes overwhelming.

In a viral essay, venture capitalist Marc Andreessen makes a simple exhortation: It’s time to build. Behind the coronavirus crisis, he writes, lies “our widespread inability to build.” America has been unable to create enough coronavirus tests, or even enough cotton swabs to fully utilize the tests we do have. We don’t have enough ventilators, ICU beds, personal protection equipment. The government hasn’t built the capacity to quickly get money to people or businesses who need it.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/22/21228469/m...oronavirus

[hazard]

I will point out that the EU's top level government is entirely dependent on every nation in the EU not vetoing an agreement. And generally the EU does get things done.

[LynnInDenver]

I will point out that the EU's top level government is entirely dependent on every nation in the EU not vetoing an agreement. And generally the EU does get things done.

I'd suspect that's in part because they've dealt very directly with the ultimate consequences of what happens when vetocracies form.

[DHBirr]

Light and heat could be part of the effort to excise COVID-19 from society. It's just that when it's inside a body, the sort of conditions that would be necessary to destroy the disease would do massively greater damage to the body it's in.

Cautery, in other words.

[robkelk]

Today during the briefing:

“We’re very close to a vaccine,” Trump said, before immediately contradicting himself. “We’re not close on testing” the vaccine, he clarified.

Does any of that make sense?

Sort of. IIRC there's something like 70 different vaccines being worked at for COVID-19, many of which are taking absurdly short routes to testing for effectiveness and safety. And I mean absurdly short routes, several vaccines have already had the requirement for animal testing waved for them because SARS-COV-2 is so new a virus we don't have a test animal we can use to do the animal trials on, and the work necessary to determine which animal if any is the best option would delay the vaccine testing process by months at best.

Many vaccines are getting to the stage they can be tested however, which means that in theory we do have a functional vaccine nearly to completion. We just don't know if any of those vaccines are sufficiently safe to use compared to the risk of not using the vaccine.

While SARS-COV-2 is new, SARS as a family of virii is not. I suspect the "it's new so we can't do animal testing" excuse doesn't hold water, but I'm not a biologist of any sort.

And if a vaccine is released without testing, I will insist that the people who allowed it to be released without testing be the first to receive it.

...

He also mused about ways to use disinfectants on people, “by injections inside or almost a cleaning.”

“It’d be interesting to check that,” the president said. “You’d have to use medical doctors.”

The DHS’s Bryan is asked about the president’s suggestions that disinfectants be injected into a person. “We don’t do that within our lab,” Bryan said.

“Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work,” Trump interjected — but disinfectants like isopropyl alcohol definitely has an effect on “stationary objects.”

I am NOT taking an injection of Clorox. I don't care what the president* says.

Disinfectants also have an effect on non-stationary objects, and that effect is usually that the previously non-stationary object is definitely and fatally stationary now.

Related to my comment above: If the Nicknamer-in-Chief really thinks this is a good idea, he can set an example and do it himself first.

[RMH999]

The big thing (in my mind) to be concerned about with the vaccines and lack of/reduced animal testing is that there is some evidence of Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE) in Covid, and it's definitely present in SARS and evidence for MERS as well (one of the reasons they stopped with trying to get a SARS vaccine). ADE means that if you have antibodies (either from previous exposure or a vaccine) it makes the effects of the disease worse the second time. The antibodies enhance uptake of the virus into various cells. Dengue fever is the best known for ADE effects.

[SilverFang01]

Man pulls knife on journalists covering anti-lockdown protest, California police say

A 36-year-old man pulled a knife Friday on a television news team covering an anti-lockdown protest in Huntington Beach, California, the Los Angeles Times reported.

Christien Francis Petersen of Costa Mesa has been jailed on suspicion of exhibiting a deadly weapon other than a firearm and kidnapping, The Orange County Register reported.

Petersen approached a KTTV cameraman and reporter, produced a pocket knife and forced them into a news van to delete any footage in which he may have appeared, the station reported.

The journalists had been covering a Huntington Beach protest against a state shelter-in-place order issued to try to curb the spread of coronavirus, the Los Angeles Times reported.

This is what these groups have wrought.

[Matrix Dragon]

Christ almighty, fucking loons...

[robkelk]

If you don't want to be on TV, don't go some place where a reasonable person would expect TV cameras to be present. Duh.

[hazard]

While SARS-COV-2 is new, SARS as a family of virii is not. I suspect the "it's new so we can't do animal testing" excuse doesn't hold water, but I'm not a biologist of any sort.

The problem is that just because we know the family doesn't mean that we automatically know which species are good test subjects. It's not so much 'it's new so we can't do animal testing' as it's 'it's so new we don't know which animals are cost effective to test or give a response to this virus and anything we can use to treat the disease it creates that we can accurately translate to humans. Never you mind both'.

What you are basically saying is 'dogs are canine, wolves are canine, hyenas are canine, dingoes are canine and coyote are canine, so the way I treat my well trained and domesticated lap dog will work exactly the same for all those other canines'. And that's presuming SARS-COV-2 is that closely related, because in microbiotics, like bacteria and virus', figuring out how closely related two different subjects are can be quite difficult. The problem with the common cold is that it's actually a massive range of different pathogens, not all of which are closely related to other pathogens that are none the less dropped under the title of 'common cold'.

And if a vaccine is released without testing, I will insist that the people who allowed it to be released without testing be the first to receive it.

The situation is not to the point that the various medicine safety organisations have waived all safety systems. What they've done is waive for one stage of safety trials for some of the vaccines under development. In any sensible system that means that when they proceed to human trials the test groups are even more thoroughly monitored than usual because of the increased risk.

[SilverFang01]

This is sweet
https://twitter.com/scalzi/status/125367...54020?s=21

[robkelk]

While SARS-COV-2 is new, SARS as a family of virii is not. I suspect the "it's new so we can't do animal testing" excuse doesn't hold water, but I'm not a biologist of any sort.

The problem is that just because we know the family doesn't mean that we automatically know which species are good test subjects. It's not so much 'it's new so we can't do animal testing' as it's 'it's so new we don't know which animals are cost effective to test or give a response to this virus and anything we can use to treat the disease it creates that we can accurately translate to humans. Never you mind both'.

What you are basically saying is 'dogs are canine, wolves are canine, hyenas are canine, dingoes are canine and coyote are canine, so the way I treat my well trained and domesticated lap dog will work exactly the same for all those other canines'. And that's presuming SARS-COV-2 is that closely related, because in microbiotics, like bacteria and virus', figuring out how closely related two different subjects are can be quite difficult. The problem with the common cold is that it's actually a massive range of different pathogens, not all of which are closely related to other pathogens that are none the less dropped under the title of 'common cold'.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything of the sort. And please put the goalposts back where they were.

I said "animal testing", not "cost-effective animal testing". Considering how many billions of dollars are being thrown around during the pandemic response, financial concerns are - or at least should be - nonexistent.