All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII

[Labster]

Copyright notices in images are used as proxies for "the author doesn't want reuse".  But legally, that's not what it means.  Works with or without a copyright notice are the same under law, and the latest copyright treaty has changed "all rights reserved" into a ritual incantation with no legal effect.

TVT was assuming "we didn't know it was copyrighted" was an excuse (it isn't).  I'm sure many tropers just spent 90 seconds in mspaint to cut off the copyright notice, and uploaded the files anyway.  Fair use applies regardless of the author's intent; a person who holds the copyright can release it under a single use license, permissive license, or dedicate it to the public domain (copyright message and all).  Basically this line of policy is asserting ignorance of copyright status as an excuse when it isn't -- the remedy is always the same: the rightsholder or his agent sends a takedown request, and if it disappears everyone is happy.  So yeah, that line can disappear.

This looks like a very old trope, Herodotus ends book nine of "The Histories" with something similar, circa 415 BCE.

Yes, the original link mentions Herodotus as the Ur Example, along with many more examples I didn't feel like retyping.  I mean, seriously, it's about ten thousand words or more on a trope and how historic it actually is.  And with a page image for free!  Some of the examples are of how cultures were mythologized - Celts by the English and differently by the Scottish (see Boadicea), Gauls by the French because the Franks were too German.  I would like to see a few more intentionally-fiction examples of this trope.  I think he mentioned a couple first-season ST:TNG episodes?

[Bob Schroeck]

TVT was assuming "we didn't know it was copyrighted" was an excuse (it isn't).

TV Tropes is and always was a bstion of Artistice License Law, between Feddie and Fighteer.

I say strike that passage from our guidelines, replace it with a link to the appropriate licensing passage on the appropriate page, and leave another bit of TVT corruption behind us.

Oh, and let whoever it was pointed you at this -- I'm too lazy to go to recent changes right now and see -- that it's a non-issue now.

[robkelk]

Goo Monster, and I agree that we shouldn't have it in our guidelines. Thanks, everyone.

EDIT: And done.

---

As to our problem child... Bob, I saw your proposal and seconded it.

[Bob Schroeck]

As to our problem child... Bob, I saw your proposal and seconded it.

For those who haven't, it's my (current) last post in this thread.  Summary:  I reread all the posts on Jason taylor's talk page, and realized he's been more trouble than he's really worth.

[Labster]

I don't keep track of Recent Changes, so I don't really have any input on him, sorry.

That history blog has been pretty interesting.  I've been learning some things and, well.  I don't know exactly how this cancel culture thing is supposed to work, but I think I'd kind of like to cancel Laconic.  Not the actual content, just the word.

The word "laconic" is a reference to Laconia, the home province ruled by Sparta.  And particularly, how Spartans were given to pithy statements.  And, like, Sparta was really bad.  Most of the contemporaneous sources say that they were harsh on their slaves, which always says a lot when other slave owners think maybe you should cool it.  Maybe it was the annual five-day slave hunt, or maybe it was how boys graduated into adulthood by stalking and murdering a slave, but they sure had a lot of slave revolts.  Oh, and that school the elite spartiate boys graduated from?  It's nearest modern counterpart is the Lord's Liberation Army, made for indoctrination and brainwashing and not, as popularly thought, a kids school of military strategy.  So they were pithy not because it was valued in the culture, but honestly because they weren't really capable of complex speech or art or philosophy.  It's not just that Sparta was bad, it's that it was bad by the standards of its times and neighbors.

In the long term, I had wanted to move the laconic content into the page itself, and display it in search results.  But that really wouldn't need to be quite so jokey, just concise and summarizing. That would take programming work on my part though, which is in short supply.  But it's really silly to hide this away on subpages.

[Bob Schroeck]

I wonder if we couldn't have a page somewhere contrasting the pop culture Sparta (perhaps with snapshots of how they were seen at various points in the last few centuries) with the real Sparta. It seems to me to be the kind of thing that fits in with the wiki's mission.

Regarding Jason taylor, I note that he's been lying low for a few days now. I suspect he's hoping that if he's not visible for a while, we'll forget again. Following that assumption, I've given him an ultimatum; allowing for the American Thanksgiving holiday, he has until Sunday evening to make any kind of response before he gets a permanent ban.

[robkelk]

I wonder if we couldn't have a page somewhere contrasting the pop culture Sparta (perhaps with snapshots of how they were seen at various points in the last few centuries) with the real Sparta.  It seems to me to be the kind of thing that fits in with the wiki's mission.

Call it "This! Is! Sparta!" and break all the redirects that haven't been re-pointed to "Punctuated! For! Emphasis!"...

And then add a section to the welcome page for TVTropes refugees. "Trope names here aren't always the same as they are at TVT. "This! Is! Sparta!" is about Sparta, not punctuating for emphasis. "Red Baron" is about the Red Baron, not sobriquets. Please make sure the word means what you think it means."

Regarding Jason taylor, I note that he's been lying low for a few days now.  I suspect he's hoping that if he's not visible for a while, we'll forget again.  Following that assumption, I've given him an ultimatum; allowing for the American Thanksgiving holiday, he has until Sunday evening to make any kind of response before he gets a permanent ban.

His one-week tempban ends on Saturday. If he edits without making the requested reply, then I'll permaban him before your deadline for purposefully being disruptive.

[Bob Schroeck]

Sounds reasonable.

[robkelk]

We got a mention in the commentary of today's Darths & Droids! (And links to two pages, to boot.)

So that's one more geek-friendly place where readers now know there's an alternative to TVT.

(EDIT by Bob: fixed URL markup)(Thanks, Bob.)

[robkelk]

I just started a new category - feel free to add images to it.

We had a non-negligible number of these "Iconic $WORD" categories even before I created this one. Any ideas for a name for a super-category for them?

[robkelk]

TVT was assuming "we didn't know it was copyrighted" was an excuse (it isn't).

TV Tropes is and always was a bstion of Artistice License Law, between Feddie and Fighteer.

I say strike that passage from our guidelines, replace it with a link to the appropriate licensing passage on the appropriate page, and leave another bit of TVT corruption behind us.

Oh, and let whoever it was pointed you at this -- I'm too lazy to go to recent changes right now and see -- that it's a non-issue now.

Just noticed and fixed another Artistic License Law statement in the same section. They claimed that screenshots of a CC-BY-SA wiki were fair use. They aren't - the "SA" means that derivative works such as screenshots are also CC-BY-SA. EDIT: And "No Derivatives" means "no resizing, because that's a derivative". And other weirdness. I just fixed a lot of errors and put a yellow banner across the top of the page telling people to re-read the section.

Honestly - did nobody at TV Tropes read the legal documents that they chose to function under?

[robkelk]

Regarding Jason taylor, I note that he's been lying low for a few days now.  I suspect he's hoping that if he's not visible for a while, we'll forget again.  Following that assumption, I've given him an ultimatum; allowing for the American Thanksgiving holiday, he has until Sunday evening to make any kind of response before he gets a permanent ban.

His one-week tempban ends on Saturday. If he edits without making the requested reply, then I'll permaban him before your deadline for purposefully being disruptive.

Well, he didn't edit. And he hasn't edited yet today, either.

It's after 17:00UTC, so I've reminded everybody who's subscribed to the thread that the clock runs out in less than five hours.

[robkelk]

It is now 00:18 UTC the day after the deadline we gave jason. No response has been made.

Dropping the hammer:

Repeatedly refusing to learn from honest mistakes, repeatedly making the same honest mistakes after they have been pointed out, and repeatedly ignoring wiki moderators - see https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Vxxnts526ir6gwcz

[Bob Schroeck]

I just started a new category - feel free to add images to it.

We had a non-negligible number of these "Iconic $WORD" categories even before I created this one. Any ideas for a name for a super-category for them?

"This Category is Iconic"?  "Iconic Category"?

[Labster]

Isn’t it Iconic, Don’cha Think?

[Bob Schroeck]

You know, i actually kinda like that.

[robkelk]

Having never been married, I have no idea what rain on my wedding day is like. But we can trim it down...

"Isn’t it Iconic" it is.

Oh, and I've tossed a painting into Iconic Image. A Norman Rockwell painting, of course.

[robkelk]

Suddenly I discover how sheltered my life has been.

This page (no pun intended) needs a re-write and probably a new (or supplementary) image because of this announcement... and I have no idea what pronouns to use. Is there even an accepted pronoun for "non-binary transgender"?

Help. please.


EDIT: Onpon4, who did such a good job re-writing our "Transgender" page, hasn't edited on ATT for a year, but does have an email address in the system. I've just sent a site email to Onpon4 asking whether we can coax him or her (or ...?) back to help with the re-write.

[Mamorien]

and I have no idea what pronouns to use. Is there even an accepted pronoun for "non-binary transgender"?

I didn't click through to that specific article, but I've seen in other articles that Page's pronouns are he/they.

[robkelk]

and I have no idea what pronouns to use. Is there even an accepted pronoun for "non-binary transgender"?

I didn't click through to that specific article, but I've seen in other articles that Page's pronouns are he/they.

That helps, thanks.

What do we say when talking about when he was called Ellen, though?

[LynnInDenver]

and I have no idea what pronouns to use. Is there even an accepted pronoun for "non-binary transgender"?

I didn't click through to that specific article, but I've seen in other articles that Page's pronouns are he/they.

That helps, thanks.

What do we say when talking about when he was called Ellen, though?

Speaking as a transwoman, use the current name and pronouns. That's pretty much the simplest and most respectful way to handle it. And the specific article follows that exactly.

[robkelk]

Thanks, everyone.

Work's all done, including replacing the page image that showed his deadname with a newer image from Commons, and going in to each page that links to the character page and making sure the pronouns are right ("him" for the actor, "her" for the character)... except for deleting the redirect that was in place to make sure the internal links weren't broken. I'll do that at the end of the week once the news has had a few days to become known.

[robkelk]

So, with the image, image description, page quote, and page quote attribution, is Metasyntactic Variable a Self-Demonstrating Article yet?

[Bob Schroeck]

Only if it can substitute for any other article. <grin>

[robkelk]

Thanks, everyone.

Work's all done, including replacing the page image that showed his deadname with a newer image from Commons, and going in to each page that links to the character page and making sure the pronouns are right ("him" for the actor, "her" for the character)... except for deleting the redirect that was in place to make sure the internal links weren't broken. I'll do that at the end of the week once the news has had a few days to become known.

I think that's long enough. Also, this. Redirect has been deleted.