[OOC][PLOT] Planning for Arc 2 - Crisis on Infinite Earths

[robkelk]

I'm using more of a Canadian system than a British one, and Elizabeth II is "Her Royal Highness" here. (The Sovereign hasn't been "His Majesty" here since they gave up the title of Emperor of India back in the late 1940s.)

[Dartz]

Being a staunch republican (Not the American sort,) I find the idea vaguely appalling

There's going to be some Legend of the Galactic Heroes thing here, isn't there?

[robkelk]

No doubt. But not right away... maybe in Arc 4.

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm... Pulling a few ideas together because of a piece of fan art I stumbled across.

We're bringing in pretty much all of Star Trek (at least up to Voyager) in Arc 2, aren't we? And Trek had that "Mirror Universe" thing that was so popular - and not just for Spock with a goatee.

And we've had pocket dimensions since day one, what with Washuu-chan's lab and all. So we could have a mirror universe - just put it in a pocket dimension.

So... evil versions of everybody we already have or are planning to introduce? Maybe with a DS9 style conflict between the two sides? Can't have goatees on the women, though... but the usual solution there is an Evil Eyepatch instead.

It might be fun for a story or two. Or longer, if we get a few refugees from the mirror dimension moving in.

As for the fan art...

Spoiler

Okay, Saori doesn't seem to be that evil, compared to the other four.

Source

[Norgarth]

Of course, a Mirror Universe means Good versions of villains as well.

[Bob Schroeck]

I'm using more of a Canadian system than a British one, and Elizabeth II is "Her Royal Highness" here. (The Sovereign hasn't been "His Majesty" here since they gave up the title of Emperor of India back in the late 1940s.)

Gotcha.  My info is clearly out of date.

Then again, I acquired it for my AD&D campaign years ago, so it was accurate for what I needed it for...

[Bob Schroeck]

And we've had pocket dimensions since day one, what with Washuu-chan's lab and all. So we could have a mirror universe - just put it in a pocket dimension.

So, like, a pocket mirror... universe?  I'm envisioning someone taking it out to check how their counterpart looks every once in a while.

EDIT: And boy, did that joke fall flat.

[Labster]

One highly-skilled computer/persocom specialist will be offered a knighthood from one of the more tech-savvy nobles, citing the precedent of the UK where a knighthood is offered for continued excellence in sciences, arts, or sports. After this happens, that precedent from the UK could be followed in other fields... but who gets the nod?

So we're not giving most of the knighthoods to the civil service?  Sir Humphrey would be a bit concerned.

As for who doesn't get one... The Juraiians have their own noble or royal titles, so offering any of them a knighthood would be an insult, not an honour. (The implication would be that Usagi considers herself to rank above the Emperor of Jurai.) Likewise, offering the small-d democrats at Penscacola a title from a monarchical system would be just as much of an insult.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  Honours like this are pretty common as part of diplomatic relations among royals.  Like, look at this list of honours held by the Heisei emperor.  Even Queen Victoria was a member of the Order of Kamehameha.  For nations at peace, it seems like the kind of thing that makes for an excuse for a state visit, so that you can get closer ties.

Any suggestions for additional knights?

Sakaki should be one, if only because it makes my inner Kaorin go "squee" at a loud volume.

Being a staunch republican (Not the American sort,) I find the idea vaguely appalling

There's going to be some Legend of the Galactic Heroes thing here, isn't there?

Our source material is lousy with princesses.  That's just a fact.  I get where you're coming from, because I'm the one not picking princesses and powerful people for my apartment complex.  And the few rich people I have would gladly give it up for the person they love.  And the one baroness I have is the biggest idiot in the cast.

Being part of a republic, I get that.  At the same time, I'd trust Usagi with absolute power, but she's wise, merciful, and incorruptible.  It's hard to imagine a world where her monarchy isn't a better place to live than a republic... as long as she's alive, that is.  The problem with kings is that you get good ones and bad ones and it's hard to replace the bad ones.

Honestly, I'm in it for the idea of a dominion on the Moon, and terraforming the lunar surface to restore the putative lunar biosphere.  There should be lots of stories there that don't require the Important people.

[robkelk]

One highly-skilled computer/persocom specialist will be offered a knighthood from one of the more tech-savvy nobles, citing the precedent of the UK where a knighthood is offered for continued excellence in sciences, arts, or sports. After this happens, that precedent from the UK could be followed in other fields... but who gets the nod?

So we're not giving most of the knighthoods to the civil service?  Sir Humphrey would be a bit concerned.

One might possibly notice that, in the interests of endeavouring to ensure ease of communications within the residence designated "Blossom Apartments", that there is a noticeable dearth in the population of titled servants who hold senior positions within Her Majesty's government in residence at that particular abode to the point that a hypothetical casual observer would consider said dearth to be a complete absence.

(tl;dr: Sir Humphrey isn't here.)

As for who doesn't get one... The Juraiians have their own noble or royal titles, so offering any of them a knighthood would be an insult, not an honour. (The implication would be that Usagi considers herself to rank above the Emperor of Jurai.) Likewise, offering the small-d democrats at Penscacola a title from a monarchical system would be just as much of an insult.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  Honours like this are pretty common as part of diplomatic relations among royals.  Like, look at this list of honours held by the Heisei emperor.  Even Queen Victoria was a member of the Order of Kamehameha.  For nations at peace, it seems like the kind of thing that makes for an excuse for a state visit, so that you can get closer ties.

Those are all senior orders of honours, though - they aren't people who "work for a living", as BA described it some months ago.

Usagi hasn't thought things through. She wanted a simple system to begin with, not realizing that real-world systems are complex for reasons.

Any suggestions for additional knights?

Sakaki should be one, if only because it makes my inner Kaorin go "squee" at a loud volume.

Dame Kozue, who is in the service of... hmmmmm... the Count of the Lacus Excellentiae, perhaps? He knows what it's like to be a ferret part-time, after all.

Or maybe she'd be in service to the Baroness of Ameno Uzume... nah, I'm not seeing that happen.

Being a staunch republican (Not the American sort,) I find the idea vaguely appalling

There's going to be some Legend of the Galactic Heroes thing here, isn't there?

Our source material is lousy with princesses.  That's just a fact.  I get where you're coming from, because I'm the one not picking princesses and powerful people for my apartment complex.  And the few rich people I have would gladly give it up for the person they love.  And the one baroness I have is the biggest idiot in the cast.

Being part of a republic, I get that.  At the same time, I'd trust Usagi with absolute power, but she's wise, merciful, and incorruptible.  It's hard to imagine a world where her monarchy isn't a better place to live than a republic... as long as she's alive, that is.  The problem with kings is that you get good ones and bad ones and it's hard to replace the bad ones.

Honestly, I'm in it for the idea of a dominion on the Moon, and terraforming the lunar surface to restore the putative lunar biosphere.  There should be lots of stories there that don't require the Important people.

Oh, definitely. We might even steal... er, borrow some plots from shows we aren't including in the Metacontinuity.

[Dartz]

I sense a great in-character rant on this subject at some stage.

"Why don't we ask how the people of the Congo feel about King Leopold, the Russians feel about Tsar Nicholas, half of the Pacific Rim about the Emperor Hirohito, and this little country right here the Family Windsor next door.

A monarchy isn't just the monarch, and no matter how just and honourable the monarch may be the very system itself is the apex of evil. It is the admission that not only is a natural hierarchy where there are betters or lessers okay, but that it is an inevitable and even desireable state of affairs. There are some people naturally better than others - not everyone can be a fucking baron, or a knight - someone's got to be on the bottom for there to be a top. Somebody has to be the bottom brick in the wall.

Monarchy is also an admission that objective morality doesn't matter. Morality is now simply a function of your position in the hierarchy. Because moral people are always at the top, and immoral people at the bottom. The morality of actions is relative more to the person taking the action, than the actual action itself.

I like living in a Republic. I like the idea of having a President that - at the end of the day - is still a citizen of the state and a servant of the State rather than the incorporation of it. The president is a representative of the people to the world, the face of a nation and who we are now. A president is an acknowledgement of a changing world and a changing culture rather than a desire for stagnation. At the end of the day, the president stands in line with everyone else at the ATM. Anybody can be President. I also like the idea of the President getting the legal shitcan when he's a lunatic.

Just because you elected one shit president doesn't mean you should turn over the entire system to the ghost of one possibly decent Queen. "

I might need to rewrite that for eloquence. Or ineloquence.

There is one other fact the innocent young rabbit won't know. Monarchs have enemies - a lot of them. A monarch needs to live a lucky life - because those enemies will only need one lucky day.

[robkelk]

I might need to rewrite that for eloquence. Or ineloquence.

I'll let you do that (or announce that you won't) before commenting on it...

There is one other fact the innocent young rabbit won't know. Monarchs have enemies - a lot of them. A monarch needs to live a lucky life - because those enemies will only need one lucky day.

"Usagi, you have both a protector and a bodyguard." Rob nodded at Mamoru and Minako, respectively. "Haven't you ever wondered why?"

[Dartz]

I wouldn't mind, the reference I wanted to use was deleted between me coming up with the idea, and actually starting to type. Annoying really. It was about how certain bands in politics tended towards the assumptions that hierarchies were natural and indeed even desireable things, how morality was determined not by the result of the action, but by the hierarchical position of the actor. The higher ups are inherently good and deserving - the people on the bottom are inherently bad and undeserving. The inherently moral deserve the boons of life. The inherently immoral deserve to be made to suffer.

It's the ones who deem themselves to be real-life's protagonists justifying themselves being the moral centre of things because they're the ones with the titles.

No matter how noble the nobles, a monarchy is an inherently evil institution, and only becomes more evil the more power concentrates on the throne. It denies people their right to change and redefine themselves and be something more and instead demands they find their place in the hierarchy and stay there.

---

I'd be kind of curious to see what Rajvik's contribution to that would've been..... because, well, on the one hand....

We can roll it through later and see what can be assembled. What ideas work and what doesnt and who the fuck is this John Galt fella anyway? I really wouldn't mind some help framing this....

[Labster]

It's kind of hard for me to see monarchies characterized as inherently evil, because I'm a Christian, and the Bible does a lot of talking about the Kingdom of God.  And it's not really a literary, metaphorical way of expressing divine power either.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end.

The Levant seemed to have a lot of kings, but it seems possible that Isaiah could have known about the poleis in Greece which were democratic or republican.  I doubt the writing here would have required the use of monarchical terms if they didn't apply.  And of course, when we go forward in time to Paul, he certainly would have known about the Roman Republic.  Yet all of the writing enthrones God or pseudo-alternately Jesus as King (or at least Prince!).  In either case, it's presented as a good thing, right rule, and so it's really hard for me to say that heritable monarchy is a bad thing. Jesus seems like a pretty cool guy.

(Also the Bible kind of goes out of its way, especially compared to contemporaneous books, to criticize its leaders and royalty.  Even King David who gets pretty good press overall is condemned for his cruelty to Uriah the Hittite.  So royalty is definitely not universally good!)

If we're going to bring in the whole "No gods or kings, only man" thing, it sort of clashes with the idea that we do in fact have gods.  They're not all good (see DW5), but they do have power.  Lately Professor Deveraux's series on Practical Polythism has been kicking around my head.  The last part of that series gets into how emperors came to be deified, for the simple reason that they were also entities who wielded vast powers with just a word, and must be appeased with offerings.  In any case, the powers do exist if we like it or not, and need to be appeased.

I think though, fundamentally I'm a pragmatist on the issue.  Hierarchies may or may not be desirable, but they are inevitable in any political system.  Kings do bad things and get people into stupid wars where they treat their own subjects as cannon fodder.  But then republics do bad things too.  From the genocide of the Carthaginians to the genocide of the Native Americans, republics have been capable of vast amounts of violence too.  Constitutional monarchs with limited powers usually have a moderating influence on their society, but sometimes don't (the King of Italy was fairly chummy with Mussolini for quite some time).  But really I'll side with whoever is actually being a beacon of happy goodness right now.

The trappings of monarchy aren't interesting to me.  I don't need the hero worship, and thinking about the lords and ladies as being superior humans is stupid.  They're just better dressed.  I live unfortunately close to Prince Harry and Meghan, who seem to be failing as both royalty and commoners at the moment.  I do like heraldry though, which is mainly because I like flags.

[robkelk]

Girls und Panzer planning:

Ahem.  However, Douglass Gardens is a low-drama zone (at least so far).

That's all right - the St. Gloriana girls are (on the whole) very good at the stereotypical calm British resolve.

They're such an even-tempered bunch that it would have been amusing to have them in San Antonio.  Imagine having this little island of Britain in the Westwoods courtyard where the young ladies are playing strategy games over tea while observing the low-key mayhem going on around them...  And they'd simply laugh politely and comment on how delightfully spirited everyone else was.

Ah well.  We could probably have them visit.  After all, Camp Bullis is practically tailor-made for Sensha-Do....  At least, once Season 2 kicks off and we don't have to bother the US Army+Marine Corps to use it.

You oughta see a topographical map of the place.  Actually, I'll do ya one better...

BIG!

The girls would have an absolute blast in this place.  Hell, it'd probably go very quickly to the top of everyone's list for "Favorite Venues for Sensha-Do".

PS: If the meme of "Australians are just British Texans" is true, then so is the reverse: "Texans are just American Aussies", and therefore Texas would be just as much of a novelty to the British as Australia is to Americans. 

Speaking of Sensha-do and "Australians are just British Texans"... if I'm reading the hydrological charts right, the Tasman Sea is deep enough for the school ships. They can't come all the way in to Sydney Harbour, but they can get closer than they can get to Halifax or Corpus Christi.

And we don't have any (known) displacees south of the Equator.

Thoughts about putting these floating islands Down Under?

[Black Aeronaut]

I'd be fine with it. It might take a bit longer to set up visits to places like San Antonio, but that's quite the logistical job anyhow. Fortunately, we have an airfield that regularly flies the C-5 Galaxy, so at least most aircraft can take off and land here.

Although I suspect the issue will be rendered moot pretty early on in Season 2 since they can just bring the city to them instead. :V

[Labster]

And we don't have any (known) displacees south of the Equator.

Thoughts about putting these floating islands Down Under?

I'm not sure but I think Southern Cross Island is probably far enough south to see the Southern Cross.

[robkelk]

As for who doesn't get one... The Juraiians have their own noble or royal titles, so offering any of them a knighthood would be an insult, not an honour. (The implication would be that Usagi considers herself to rank above the Emperor of Jurai.) Likewise, offering the small-d democrats at Penscacola a title from a monarchical system would be just as much of an insult.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  Honours like this are pretty common as part of diplomatic relations among royals.  Like, look at this list of honours held by the Heisei emperor.  Even Queen Victoria was a member of the Order of Kamehameha.  For nations at peace, it seems like the kind of thing that makes for an excuse for a state visit, so that you can get closer ties.

Those are all senior orders of honours, though - they aren't people who "work for a living", as BA described it some months ago.

Usagi hasn't thought things through. She wanted a simple system to begin with, not realizing that real-world systems are complex for reasons.

When she does realize, well... Aeka and Sasami will be the first two inductees into the Order of Tranquility. (At the top level of a three-level Order.) This is now on the wiki.

[robkelk]

Something for Arc 2... because I remember somebody wanting a fleet to take command of.

---

"Luna, you used to be an admiral, right?"

The Mau - currently in cat form - turned away from her family and looked up at Rob's question. "That's right. I was one of Queen Serenity's military advisors during the Silver Millennium."

"That implies you and she had a navy. How big was your fleet?"

She sighed deeply. "Before or after Metaria's youma attacked?"

Rob had the grace to look chagrined. "Sorry." After a moment, he continued, "I was hoping that there might have been a few ships somewhere near the ruins of the capital, but that isn't very likely, is it? Even if there was a military base that close to the palace, they would have deployed every ship they had to defend the capital, wouldn't they?"

Artemis turned to Rob. "Why wouldn't there be a military base at the capital, Rob? There's a Canadian Forces Base here in Ottawa, after all."

"And each princess had a yacht that was hangared there, that last day," Luna added. "They refused to use them to escape - they stood and fought, and died, protecting the civilians."

"I don't suppose you remember where the hangars were?"

Luna gave Rob "the look" that all the females at Blossom had learned from Mikoto Misaka. "They were right beside my own office."

"I hadn't asked you that yet. But I'll ask the $64,000 question now: can you give directions to the hangars that Yuuno and Fujitaka could follow?"

---

I have more, but it's going on the wiki.

So, just what do Silver Millennium ships look like?

I'm thinking "the more graceful sort of flying wings" because they don't have corners (ask Commander Hadfield why that's important in space), they're atmosphere-capable, they scale up well (to establish scale, I've already decided Mercury's yacht was rigged as an ambulance/medevac ship, and the royal yacht was larger than any of the others), and they kinda-sorta-vaguely look like Moon Tiaras.

However, if anybody has any better ideas, I'm open to suggestions. EDIT: As long as we aren't copying from any other fanfic. I've deliberately not gone looking for any fanon Silver Millennium ship descriptions.

[Black Aeronaut]

Hrm....

....Give me a few days to cook something up. I got some old stuff knocking around in the back of my head that might just fit the bill. I'd only have to change things up slightly to fit the "flying tiara" part.

[robkelk]

A couple of size-comparison videos from MBS, for Arc 2 (or later).


Fictional PLANETS Size Comparison





DRAGONS Size Comparison

(one of these dragons is not like the others)

[robkelk]

If we were doing seiyuu gags, we could have Mio end up in Orario during the "let's go explore the fantasy Earth" part of Arc 2... and by her voice alone be mistaken for the most powerful goddess in the city. (Her figure is close, too, but the hair colour's all wrong.)

[robkelk]

As I just posted in Crossovers That Should Not Be:

Don't let the Sailor Senshi visit Ferenginar. They'll try to banish every last Daimon.

[Black Aeronaut]

Snrk.  Some might say that'd be an improvement, and that the sexist little toads would have gotten what was coming to them.

[robkelk]

As long as we're bashing Starfleet...

It makes for a good science-fiction adventure to have the captain say something along the lines of "prime directive be damned." It makes for much better science-fiction, however, to have the captain able to say in frank honesty "I have no idea what this prime directive concept is, and it sounds like foolishness that belongs in another universe entirely. Go away. I have work to do." If you persisted in whining about native cultures, that captain would have no choice but to shoot you.

-- Howard Tayler, in the author's note to the Schlock Mercenary strip for February 5, 2002.

[Dartz]

The Prime Directive makes for good drama, but the basic ethos makes a sense.

You don't get involved because interplanetary politics becomes a race to find uncontacted Civ's to get them involved
Uplifting Civis is a lot like putting a Turtle on a Post - it's fun at first -- but they'll probably fall off and hurt themselves if you don't spend a lot of time trying to keep them there.

And generally, even when Contact has been entirely peaceful and well intended - the contacted Civ tends to get fucked over hard and end up mostly dead. Lets not be King Leopold in Space ---- too much Sci-Fi is like that.