All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XX

[robkelk]

Geth, you're not supposed to change the look of the Work pages that drastically without consensus... I've reverted your change to Template:Work

[GethN7]

Geth, you're not supposed to change the look of the Work pages that drastically without consensus... I've reverted your change to Template:Work

Whoops, I was trying to import my stuff from FANDOM since I updated some pages more there and accidentally bundled their changed templates in the import by mistake.

[Bob Schroeck]

I think there might be an extension for that. Remind me tomorrow to look, please.

If I remember to, I will.

Reminding a day late.

[Bob Schroeck]

"Still" might be overstating it.  I think he's fled the site, either out of embarrassment or because he thinks he's being persecuted.  That was the only thing he'd edited in nearly two days, after all.

And no, I'm wrong.  He just put a single edit in the moderation queue this morning at 8:40 EDT.

[GethN7]

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Wi...rom_ATT%3F

Someone other than me should handle this, this guy nicked lots of content from TV Tropes in whole or in part and I axed it for plagiarism, and their original edits were of poor quality. He wants to know if he can roll his mistakes uphill and if I have any say on Miraheze, and I'm wisely going to not antagonize the situation.

[robkelk]

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Wi...rom_ATT%3F

Someone other than me should handle this, this guy nicked lots of content from TV Tropes in whole or in part and I axed it for plagiarism, and their original edits were of poor quality. He wants to know if he can roll his mistakes uphill and if I have any say on Miraheze, and I'm wisely going to not antagonize the situation.

I see Bob answered before I could.

---

I think there might be an extension for that. Remind me tomorrow to look, please.

If I remember to, I will.

Reminding a day late.

I see an extension to create stub categories for all categories redlinks, but it's greyed out.

I also wonder whether we want all categories auto-created... especially considering the ability of some tropers (myself included) to misspell common words.

---

While looking for extensions, I found Extension:EditNotify on the list of available extensions. Should we activate it?

[GethN7]

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Wi...rom_ATT%3F

Someone other than me should handle this, this guy nicked lots of content from TV Tropes in whole or in part and I axed it for plagiarism, and their original edits were of poor quality. He wants to know if he can roll his mistakes uphill and if I have any say on Miraheze, and I'm wisely going to not antagonize the situation.

I see Bob answered before I could.

---

I think there might be an extension for that. Remind me tomorrow to look, please.

If I remember to, I will.

Reminding a day late.

I see an extension to create stub categories for all categories redlinks, but it's greyed out.

I also wonder whether we want all categories auto-created... especially considering the ability of some tropers (myself included) to misspell common words.

---

While looking for extensions, I found Extension:EditNotify on the list of available extensions. Should we activate it?

On that first extension, it wouldn't be a technically sound idea. Not only would it cause backend issues if we ever had a mass creation of new categories, it would make keeping track of what needs fixed harder, especially if it went horribly wrong and started outputting garbage, it would still count the category page as "created"

As for the second, it MIGHT be a good idea, but it would possibly require manual backend tweaks to some extent, so if we did use it, we should have a good idea what tweaks we might want before submitting a request and activating it.

[Bob Schroeck]

I'm not entirely sure what EditNotify actually gives us that we need...

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, and I added a new note to that thread with the guy from FANDOM, pointing him at our copyright policy, and trying to explain it in words of one syllable.

[robkelk]

I'm not entirely sure what EditNotify actually gives us that we need...

It appears to me that it gives notifications about a lot of things, rather than people needing to watch for boldface entries on the Recent Changes list. I think.

Oh, and I added a new note to that thread with the guy from FANDOM, pointing him at our copyright policy, and trying to explain it in words of one syllable.

I've replied, as well.

[robkelk]

An admin who has a clue about IRC needs to address this, now that we've had a vote about it.

[GethN7]

An admin who has a clue about IRC needs to address this, now that we've had a vote about it.

Left a response.

[robkelk]

An admin who has a clue about IRC needs to address this, now that we've had a vote about it.

Left a response.

Which somehow erased the first post in the thread and deleted the title. I've repaired what I could.

[GethN7]

An admin who has a clue about IRC needs to address this, now that we've had a vote about it.

Left a response.

Which somehow erased the first post in the thread and deleted the title. I've repaired what I could.

Well crap, no idea how that happened. Looks like the backend had a brainfart when I submitted my post and farbled up the thread.

Anyhoo, what we need to do is redirect IRC to Libera and change all links for that, and set up a Libera instance if we don't have one already.

[GethN7]

Making a separate post because finally got word back from FANDOM: My expulsion is permanent, my appeal was denied.

That said, so be it, I'll honor that, I even promised them in my response to the denial of my appeal that I would honor their wishes. I was specifically informed the community could vote for a new bureaucrat to replace me and FANDOM would authorize it, so with that said, they can go on without me, already sent proper notices via Discord to them.

I have released a longform statement on this here: https://gethn7.blogspot.com/2021/06/my-f...icial.html

[Bob Schroeck]

Since we have no staff in common any more, should we disown the Fandom branch, maybe even ask that they no longer call themselves "All The Tropes"?

[robkelk]

That would prevent confusion between the two wikis.

[GethN7]

Works for me.

[robkelk]

I do believe that this is the first time I've put a warning message on a category.

So far, we work well together despite having differing political views, as a PM this week reminded me. I'd rather include the occasional disclaimer than risk that willingness to work together.

[GethN7]

I do believe that this is the first time I've put a warning message on a category.

So far, we work well together despite having differing political views, as a PM this week reminded me. I'd rather include the occasional disclaimer than risk that willingness to work together.

Prudent course of action. We might pages on Mein Kampf and Das Kapital because they are works of media in the public domain and thus tropable, but our internal purpose is simple to cover them as works of media and the tropes they use. Hopefully said warning proves unneeded, but in case we get anyone offended, hopefully, that will serve to remind them we simply wish to discuss works of fiction for the tropes they use, we do not let political views of any slant censor their discussion in the academic sense insofar as they are not inherently illegal to discuss.

[Labster]

So, I haven't commented much lately, but let me start with saying that the Fandom decision is pretty bad. What GethN7 posted was terribly ignorant, but people are ignorant on the internet all the time and they don't ban all of those people. Instead of trying to correct someone who was trying to follow the rules after years of service, they just banned him. This is cancel culture at his dumbest.

But let's go back to the ignorance. What he wrote shows he hasn't thought things through that much. You didn't even define transgender correctly; no hormones or body alteration is required to be trans. Do you even know any trans people, Geth? I have three friends, and three more acquaintances, who are trans women. You didn't think about it from their perspective, obviously. But you're failing at the religious perspective, too. First principles is: "Love the Lord your God and love your neighbors as yourself." Does what you said show love to these people? I think it fails at that. There is perhaps an argument to be made on the last clause about whether trans people love themselves, but that's neither here nor there because it's honestly not your business. You know what can overcome "immutable reality"? Faith, that's what. Sheesh.

But back on the original topic of Fandom, I recall that we granted Geth a license to reuse our trademark on Wikia. Since Geth is no longer affiliated with Wikia/Fandom, they no longer have a license to use the trademark "All The Tropes" and are currently violating our intellectual property. At a minimum, we should write a cease and desist on using the trademark over there, and should follow up with any legal action necessary.

[LynnInDenver]

So, I haven't commented much lately, but let me start with saying that the Fandom decision is pretty bad.  What GethN7 posted was terribly ignorant, but people are ignorant on the internet all the time and they don't ban all of those people.  Instead of trying to correct someone who was trying to follow the rules after years of service, they just banned him.  This is cancel culture at his dumbest.

I would agree that Geth should have been given the opportunity to prune his views off the post first before being banned. The pointing out of the views and how he's having to stifle them because of the local rules was, shall we say, absolutely and utterly unnecessary even in the context. It doesn't help prove the point in the discipline he was metting out, and indeed may have also harmed his position because, "well, maybe you should be fighting for me instead of asking me to follow these 'asinine' rules."

But let's go back to the ignorance.  What he wrote shows he hasn't thought things through that much.  You didn't even define transgender correctly; no hormones or body alteration is required to be trans.  Do you even know any trans people, Geth?  I have three friends, and three more acquaintances, who are trans women.  You didn't think about it from their perspective, obviously.  But you're failing at the religious perspective, too.  First principles is: "Love the Lord your God and love your neighbors as yourself."  Does what you said show love to these people?  I think it fails at that.  There is perhaps an argument to be made on the last clause about whether trans people love themselves, but that's neither here nor there because it's honestly not your business.  You know what can overcome "immutable reality"?  Faith, that's what.  Sheesh.

A big part of what I saw was the mixing up of sex (the physical construction) and gender (basiically what the person prefers to present as), and the issue of society insisting that one MUST follow the other in lockstep (and resulting in a high toxicity for anyone who doesn't fully align with what society says is acceptable for each). Which does include that, as a trans woman, for me, it's literally a choice between making the best that I can of my mental and physical disconnects, versus making myself miserable shoving myself into a box on a day to day basis that I absolutely do not feel comfortable in, and that more importantly, that most people involved in providing treatment, that it's typically much better (not easier) to roll out the other boxes than to try to make me feel more comfortable trying to shove myself into that box that doesn't really fit.

And regarding the "trans people love themselves", I... didn't like the person I was being by trying to deal with it in the way Geth implies that I should, by finding ways to deal with it without altering my presentation from "obviously and unambiguously male". I had a LOT of destructive behaviors, both internally (various self-abusive behaviors and anger management failures) and externally (toxic relationships, seeking the wrong sorts of outside affirmation), that were difficult to abate in any way absent altering my presentation to match the way that made me comfortable, or involving being so heavily drugged (either by prescription or self-treatment, which were not options for me for various reasons) I wouldn't really be a person anymore.

[GethN7]

In my defense, I was actually trying to point out, since the post was directed at a huge rash of users who thought they could get by wiping their butt with rules on plagiarism, that FANDOM made me enforce a lot of things I disagreed with for personal and moral reasons, and without belaboring it again, I stand by every word, but I digress. The point was that despite my disagreements with FANDOM's rules, I made a point to enforce them to the letter regardless of my disagreement, and if I had to submit to what I didn't like, the people the post was addressed to needed to submit to the rules on not plagiarizing since some of these people came up with the dumbest excuses why they should be allowed to get away with it.

My favorite was someone who claimed they just plagiarizing so they could rewrite in their own words and that it was just a placeholder reference for them since they had autism. There were other dumb excuses and people blatantly plagiarizing and thinking I wouldn't check I had to deal with, and I was getting tired of it.

I had no idea I would wind up kicked out for it (had I been told to never post anything like it again, I would have complied), but apparently, obedience was not enough, I was to be a mindless drone, even obedience with noted reservations but still being compliant was not tolerated. I was clearly kicked out for having politically incorrect opinions (which I said would not affect my duties to enforce FANDOM will, but said profession of loyalty meant nothing apparently), and frankly, while I was not planning to suicide my FANDOM account, I already had indications they were going to purge people based on ideology prior and was sure sooner or later I might be hit by said purge. And if the price of sticking around was to put up with that, so be it, I'm out, wouldn't want back even if they reconsidered.

That said, I concur our trademark should be taken off the FANDOM fork since I'm no longer around thus we have no staff in common anymore.

[Bob Schroeck]

Okay, then, how are we going to get a proper C&D written? I presume we're going to make a friendly request first, but we should be ready to issue a formal notice if/when that friendly request is rejected.

[GethN7]

Okay, then, how are we going to get a proper C&D written?  I presume we're going to make a friendly request first, but we should be ready to issue a formal notice if/when that friendly request is rejected.

I've already informed SelfCloak via Discord we'd like that changed ASAP and informed him how to do so, and how we are considering a C&D to effect that change. I also informed him we want at least the current logo, text title, and favicon removed, and while the URL would require a FANDOM request to redirect it to the new title, the first three can be removed by the local admin.

I don't know if how they changed the interface may require someone to have bureaucrat rights to do all this now, they are voting on a new one to replace me at present, but either way, I made it clear we'd like this changed ASAP.

UPDATE: Done. See here:

https://allthetropes.fandom.com/wiki/Spe...lversion=2