All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXI

[robkelk]

One thing that I've learned on the freebie wiki is that, when people start using categories, they set up their own hierarchies that make sense to them. Whether they make sense to me (as the mod in charge of the wiki's organization) is pretty much irrelevant.

If we start taking categories away, somebody's going to complain. I can guarantee that. Especially if we do so unilaterally.

Thus, this is not the place to be asking these questions. This is the place to be asking these questions.

[GethN7]

One thing that I've learned on the freebie wiki is that, when people start using categories, they set up their own hierarchies that make sense to them. Whether they make sense to me (as the mod in charge of the wiki's organization) is pretty much irrelevant.

If we start taking categories away, somebody's going to complain. I can guarantee that. Especially if we do so unilaterally.

Thus, this is not the place to be asking these questions. This is the place to be asking these questions.

Done.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Wi...s_an_issue.

Left a sitenotice link to the thread because I agree entirely and would like us to hash this out before any false move steps on toes. I'm putting an immediate freeze on any further cleanup projects that could affect this topic before I do anything as well.

[robkelk]

Technical issue.

If we're going to tell people to start a new section and use the template, the way we do here, we need to:
a) figure out how to activate the "start a new section on this page" functionality on a wiki that uses that thrice-damned Flow extension; and
b) figure out how to get templates to load into new sections.

EDIT: I assume that mods are actually paying attention to that page, BTW.

[Bob Schroeck]

<sigh> New user EmberFist has three multi-kilobyte edits in moderation limbo, two of which have been waiting for approval for two days, and they all seem to have the same pattern of bad grammar and usage and endless run-on sentences. I really don't have the energy to deal with them right now thanks to crazy stuff at work. Could someone else handle at least the oldest of the three? Thanks.

[GethN7]

<sigh>  New user EmberFist has three multi-kilobyte edits in moderation limbo, two of which have been waiting for approval for two days, and they all seem to have the same pattern of bad grammar and usage and endless run-on sentences.  I really don't have the energy to deal with them right now thanks to crazy stuff at work.  Could someone else handle at least the oldest of the three?  Thanks.

I handled it.

One of the things that appears to be bad grammar but technically isn't is including no space after an asterisk, used at the beginning of a line to form a bullet point in MediaWiki syntax. If no space is created in the editor, it is added on the client-side anyway. 

The rest of the actual grammar looks readable enough client-side IMO.

[Bob Schroeck]

...Thanks, but... now that I'm a little less fried, I went in and handled a lot that you let pass, which is kind of what I was asking someone to do for me. In short, what I just spent about half an hour doing was, and I quote my edit summary: "fix grammar, fix run-on sentences, fix multiple cases of bizarre and nonstandard usage, deleted redundant/irrelevant details, inserted *many* missing words; commented out incomplete sentence with mod note, fix typos, added missing pucntuation, added xrefs, fixed random capitalization, fixed numerous style errors, commented out entries which are Word Salad".

[robkelk]

(goes and looks)

Oh, dear.

Yeah, Bob and I are the only ones here qualified to handle that kind of cleanup. That was barely grade-school literacy.

if that's what we're getting in the moderation queue, I'm going to have to let the freebie wiki run on autopilot for a while and pay more attention to ATT.

[GethN7]

...Thanks, but... now that I'm a little less fried, I went in and handled a lot that you let pass, which is kind of what I was asking someone to do for me.  In short, what I just spent about half an hour doing was, and I quote my edit summary: "fix grammar, fix run-on sentences, fix multiple cases of bizarre and nonstandard usage, deleted redundant/irrelevant details, inserted *many* missing words; commented out incomplete sentence with mod note, fix typos, added missing pucntuation, added xrefs, fixed random capitalization, fixed numerous style errors, commented out entries which are Word Salad".

I tend to read a lot of technical stuff and books with lots of really detailed descriptions, comes with being a nut for absurdly detailed history texts, so I guess I have a bit of a blind spot for word salad and over descriptiveness. My apologies for this. Still not excusing my being asleep at the wheel, I was and I own it, mea maxima culpa.

I'll give this some more care from now on.

Left some tips on grammar practice here:

https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?tit...23i2uz5f2x

[Bob Schroeck]

'Sokay, Geth. I was unnecessarily snarky to you -- I wasn't quite as un-fried as I thought, looking back on last night after 8 hours' sleep.

And thanks for leaving the note.

[LulzKiller]

FYI, TV Tropes will not allow a page on Stonetoss because they think Stonetoss is a bigot, despite him using a stereotype (as shown above), to make a legitimate point about the irony of Israel's immigration laws. By FANDOM's new rule, you'd be unable to discuss this too. Both are banning discussion of things over an attempt to be politically correct and not offend people even if the offending content is legal speech that can be analyzed and troped.

I'm obviously not familiar with this situation between you and Umbire, but Stonetoss has legitimate reasons to consider him a bad person. Most forget that a previous webcomic the creator was known for was RedPanels. I enclose a comic in which he espoused holocaust denial:


If there's anything I missed since I was last here, let me know; I finally got this year of uni out the way after all the covid related fuckery that it caused.

[GethN7]

FYI, TV Tropes will not allow a page on Stonetoss because they think Stonetoss is a bigot, despite him using a stereotype (as shown above), to make a legitimate point about the irony of Israel's immigration laws. By FANDOM's new rule, you'd be unable to discuss this too. Both are banning discussion of things over an attempt to be politically correct and not offend people even if the offending content is legal speech that can be analyzed and troped.

I'm obviously not familiar with this situation between you and Umbire, but Stonetoss has legitimate reasons to consider him a bad person. Most forget that a previous webcomic the creator was known for was RedPanels. I enclose a comic in which he espoused holocaust denial:


If there's anything I missed since I was last here, let me know; I finally got this year of uni out the way after all the covid related fuckery that it caused.

This is an obvious joke. The joke being the hippie is saying "open your mind". Guy in question takes that to it's logical conclusion with the holocaust denial (which is being open-minded, as in, not sticking to approved opinions only). Hippie immediately contradicts himself.

The meaning of the joke is this: Open-mindedness is fine, but only the "right" kind of open-mindedness. It's not promoting holocaust denial, it's more pointing out the hypocrisy in the hippie's political takes. Sure, the hippie is just and dandy with telling "the Man" off, but as soon as HE gets offended, he agrees with "the Man" on telling you to be silent.

If you take the joke at face value, then yes, it looks like holocaust denial. Once you realize the structure of the panel is this, then the real joke is clear:

1. First character tells second to let no one restrict his thinking.
2. Second character considers not letting his thoughts be restricted.
3. Second character then puts that into practice.
4. First character proves an immediate hypocrite to what was espoused in panel one.

As tropers, we are supposed to analyze media, and if you don't do that, then a shallow look at something with a deeper message will make it seems like one thing. Since the purpose of this comic is political humor, and since a lot of Stonetoss (and Red Panels by proxy if your allegation is true) focus on the use of political irony for the purposes of telling a point in the name of using humor to sell the point, then analysis of the point will reveal the real message.

And even when the purpose of the media in question is blatantly obvious, like Hitler's works (which I've troped extensively) which are unironically and honestly espousing racism and other horrific topics as their actual point, analysis of them from a scholarly perspective enables us as tropers to understand the tropes Hitler played on to sell his message, which were based on a lot of fallacies, emotional appeals, and alternate history interpretation. Realizing this would allow us by that analysis to better tell the difference between using the concept of an offensive idea being espoused to make another point and when actual offensive ideas are being espoused AS the actual point.

[robkelk]

Folks, I'm looking at EmberFist's current changes that are sitting in moderation.

I'll take this one for the team, whimpering all the way.

(Yes, we know that the example is an example of the trope. it's on the example list. You don't need to lampshade it every time...)

EDIT: Or somebody else will approve them. I'll undo the train-wrecks

[robkelk]

Has anyone received any reply to our messages to EmberFist?

[LulzKiller]

Sorry for approving, they looked OK at first glance as i'm not familiar with the material, i'll sit out forthwith

[robkelk]

No worries. You had no reason to know that we've been watching this particular new troper more closely than usual.

[robkelk]

Style question... In one of his edits either today or yesterday, Bob moved "Sports" out from under Real Life and into its own section. A while ago, I had moved Sports from its own section to a subsection under Real Life on the same page.

Which way do we want to go? I was basing my edit on the fact that we don't usually list athletes as creators, extrapolating that to considering athletics as a part of real life. I'm not committed to that, though.

[GethN7]

Style question... In one of his edits either today or yesterday, Bob moved "Sports" out from under Real Life and into its own section. A while ago, I had moved Sports from its own section to a subsection under Real Life on the same page.

Which way do we want to go? I was basing my edit on the fact that we don't usually list athletes as creators, extrapolating that to considering athletics as a part of real life. I'm not committed to that, though.

One could argue Sports are a form of media like Live Action TV. Unlike the unscripted reality of most IRL things, sports take place in a setting with firm rules, a degree of scripted and mandated things that must happen as part of the sports demonstration, and is often billed as a subset of television programming when broadcast.

[LulzKiller]

Under such a system, would professional wrestling continue to be it's own submedia?

[robkelk]

Professional Wrestling includes kayfabe - it isn't fake, but it is scripted.

[LulzKiller]

BTW somehow we hadn't an article on Harper Lee, with hundreds of redlinks, so I did some basic framework off WP.

[robkelk]

First bot run under the new rules is now complete. I didn't need the entire window that I asked for.

[Bob Schroeck]

I made that move for sports because over the past couple weeks I had seen a number of pages with "Professional Sports" sections and thought they made sense. However, I'm not wedded to the idea nor will I put up a fight if people want to keep/move those entries under Real Life.

[LulzKiller]

I'm not against a (non fiction) sports section but it might be better as a subsection under either RL or LATV, if that makes any sense.

[Bob Schroeck]

After sleeping on it, I have to agree that professional sports is better placed under real life, as it's not a medium itself. My apologies for imposing a systematic error on the wiki in the last couple weeks.

[robkelk]

BTW somehow we hadn't an article on Harper Lee, with hundreds of redlinks, so I did some basic framework off WP.

There are quite a few creators who we have hundreds of redlinks for - and most of these redlinks are in various "these works won an award" infoboxes.

Thank you for creating this one!