All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXII

[robkelk]

Add it in!

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm... I'm seeing a lot of questions lately from Derivative asking why we haven't deleted pages yet, and an equal number of replies from Looney Toons saying deletion isn't warranted.

Should Derivative really be trusted with the mod bit?

EDIT: And now he's edit-warring with me about the very existence of Mind Game/YMMV.

[LulzKiller]

I deleted Mind Game/YMMV because the only example was a Fetish Fuel example, which Geth told me explicitly in private correspondence (Discord) I was totally allowed to delete all examples of. If a subpage of a work has no examples, it's an empty page, and therefore can warrant automatic deletion.

The reason I made a talk page regarding the ASM roleplay group was because I wanted consensus before proceeding (which is standard ATT procedure), I don't understand how me actually raising a debate about a page instead of instantly deleting it warrants a questioning of my powers. If I deleted it without asking, sure.

You are more than welcome to go through my deletion log and point out any errors, most of my recent deletions have been TVT images that I replaced with either Commons images, or otherwise superior equivalents.

[robkelk]

All The Tropes does not have an official Discord.

Wiki policy is not set on Discord.

Wiki policy is not set by a single admin. It is set by consensus of the Tropers.

I an already going through the deletion log, and I am becoming more convinced that you should not be trusted with the ability to delete pages. However, doing anything about that requires consensus.

[robkelk]

And this has spoiled my day. Troping is supposed to be fun.

I'll find something else to do with my day...

[LulzKiller]

All The Tropes does not have an official Discord.

Wiki policy is not set on Discord.

Wiki policy is not set by a single admin. It is set by consensus of the Tropers.

I an already going through the deletion log, and I am becoming more convinced that you should not be trusted with the ability to delete pages. However, doing anything about that requires consensus.

Wiki policy is not set by a single admin, but an Admin can ask a Bureaucrat (a superior) about what the current policy is.

An admin can then proceed with the knowledge of current policy and make good faith edits.

[GethN7]

All The Tropes does not have an official Discord.

Wiki policy is not set on Discord.

Wiki policy is not set by a single admin. It is set by consensus of the Tropers.

I an already going through the deletion log, and I am becoming more convinced that you should not be trusted with the ability to delete pages. However, doing anything about that requires consensus.

I was asked if we should delete Fetish Fuel content. We at ATT have decided not to host it since we started. That has been SOP since.

Why you are so upset over something like this baffles me, we have a clear policy on not keeping that sort of thing. I was asked a question via a Discord conversation on if it's a kill on sight if examples are posted trope, I said yes, because, as I stated, we have a policy that says as much.

Rob, I understand you have been very frustrated of late, but I'd like to advise you to calm down. Lashing out in anger at others is not conducive to helping anyone, and frankly, you've been on edge for a while now. You gave me grief over changing a template that had known errors, and because you hated one aspect of the fix, you lashed out at me even though that one undesired change could have been fixed with very simple CSS tweaks to the module for the template. On this current matter, you are giving undue grief to someone for deleting something that has been universally agreed should not have examples, and in LK's place, I would have deleted that page too for hosting Fetish Fuel examples only, pursuant to existing policy.

Unless the rules were changed on that without me knowing, that is.

Edit: And this was just uncalled for:

https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?tit...f582mxbd9z

Instead of offering anything constructive, you showed contempt for a legitimate question and just let your temper fly. Once is forgivable, but you've been showing a pattern and if it continues, I'm going to go on record saying I believe you need to step away until you can be more civil.

[robkelk]

Fine. Since people don't like me saying that what TV Tropes says has no bearing on ATT - which has been wiki policy since the fork - I'll step aside.

Let me know for how long.

[LulzKiller]

Fine. Since people don't like me saying that what TV Tropes says has no bearing on ATT - which has been wiki policy since the fork - I'll step aside.

Let me know for how long.

I don't think that the ASM tvt equivalent claiming ASM no longer existed (I never claimed TVT was some infallible source, just the only other source we had to go on, as is sometimes happens with some obscure work pages) was Geth's point at all. I don't want any wiki staff to step aside, but I do think that there's been undue hostility for what was a constructive conversation between me and LT on the existence of MIA pages; and me following what I thought was the standard policy regarding certain trope examples and image replacements. We're allowed to disagree, and disagreeing does not mean someone has to no longer be staff. I find you to be an effective administrator whose sandbox pages and second opinion when sought have significantly helped me do my job here better. The whole point is this is collaborative project, a wiki with only 1 staff view is essentially a book in web clothing.

[robkelk]

Let me know for how long.

Bump.

[GethN7]

Let me know for how long.

Bump.

Let me lay it out for you. People just want you to quit lashing out. We have no idea if something is going on we don't know about in your personal life that is making you cranky, and if so, we sympathize and hope it passes. That said, you've been lashing out with a lot of disproportionate anger over things that do not deserve half the vehemence you have displayed, and you've come off like, to be frank, a bit of a jackass.

All The Tropes is a collaborative project where respectful dissent and good faith actions are not causes to demand people be stripped of certain rights. It is a wiki, meaning mistakes can be fixed and are not permanent, and it is no one person's personal fiefdom, it belongs to the community to edit, we in authority simply are supposed to keep the wiki running smoothly. Further, as admins, we should be mature. Being vicious does not help our goals, causes more people to get upset, and solves nothing.

If we have disagreements or issues come up, we can resolve things without bitterness, or at least I hope we can. All we, and I speak on behalf of myself, Lulzkiller, and anyone else you have been unkind to, ask is you either try to be more civil than you have been or at least take some time off to deal with whatever has soured your mood lately, you have been really vicious of late and not only does it just make people angry. I personally would like to think you can be better than that. You're a good person, Rob, and your recent outbursts of wrath are troubling.

I hope that is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

[robkelk]

Let me know for how long.

Bump.

Let me lay it out for you. People just want you to quit lashing out. We have no idea if something is going on we don't know about in your personal life that is making you cranky, and if so, we sympathize and hope it passes. That said, you've been lashing out with a lot of disproportionate anger over things that do not deserve half the vehemence you have displayed, and you've come off like, to be frank, a bit of a jackass.

All The Tropes is a collaborative project where respectful dissent and good faith actions are not causes to demand people be stripped of certain rights. It is a wiki, meaning mistakes can be fixed and are not permanent, and it is no one person's personal fiefdom, it belongs to the community to edit, we in authority simply are supposed to keep the wiki running smoothly. Further, as admins, we should be mature. Being vicious does not help our goals, causes more people to get upset, and solves nothing.

If we have disagreements or issues come up, we can resolve things without bitterness, or at least I hope we can. All we, and I speak on behalf of myself, Lulzkiller, and anyone else you have been unkind to, ask is you either try to be more civil than you have been or at least take some time off to deal with whatever has soured your mood lately, you have been really vicious of late and not only does it just make people angry. I personally would like to think you can be better than that. You're a good person, Rob, and your recent outbursts of wrath are troubling.

I hope that is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

I'm getting mixed messages here.

I'm going to go on record saying I believe you need to step away until you can be more civil.

I've been a civil servant for enough decades to know what that means. I thought I was being gracious and saving face all around - all I wanted to know was whether this was temp- or perma-.

But now it looks like you don't want to ban me after all.


As for this post, if you want me to stop lashing out, stop giving me reasons to lash out.

You mentioned me getting upset with you about the template issues. You didn't mention that I brought the issues to your attention weeks earlier, and from what I could see on the wiki you never did anything about them. And now you've mentioned you knew how to fix the issue - but you never did. The only way I know to fix the damage was to do a rollback, and I said so before doing the rollback - and now you appear to be upset that I did what nobody told me wasn't necessary.

I've also been asking repeatedly for feedback on the infoboxes that you folks wanted created. I get nothing in response to my questions, except from Labster.

I've also been asking repeatedly for help with the image licenses project. I get nothing in response to my statements.

And now, LulzKiller mentions going to you in an off-wiki channel that we say is not connected to ATT (unlike the tenuous connection that we mention exists between this forum and the wiki) to have at least one conversation with you - which is one of the things that I remember everybody complaining about how the then-current admins at TV Tropes operated when the wiki was forked. Maybe I'm misremembering.

But if I am remembering correctly, why shouldn't I get upset?

You're asking for good faith - but I'm not seeing a lot of it in return.

So ... how long before I get what you're asking me to give?

[GethN7]

Let me know for how long.

Bump.

Let me lay it out for you. People just want you to quit lashing out. We have no idea if something is going on we don't know about in your personal life that is making you cranky, and if so, we sympathize and hope it passes. That said, you've been lashing out with a lot of disproportionate anger over things that do not deserve half the vehemence you have displayed, and you've come off like, to be frank, a bit of a jackass.

All The Tropes is a collaborative project where respectful dissent and good faith actions are not causes to demand people be stripped of certain rights. It is a wiki, meaning mistakes can be fixed and are not permanent, and it is no one person's personal fiefdom, it belongs to the community to edit, we in authority simply are supposed to keep the wiki running smoothly. Further, as admins, we should be mature. Being vicious does not help our goals, causes more people to get upset, and solves nothing.

If we have disagreements or issues come up, we can resolve things without bitterness, or at least I hope we can. All we, and I speak on behalf of myself, Lulzkiller, and anyone else you have been unkind to, ask is you either try to be more civil than you have been or at least take some time off to deal with whatever has soured your mood lately, you have been really vicious of late and not only does it just make people angry. I personally would like to think you can be better than that. You're a good person, Rob, and your recent outbursts of wrath are troubling.

I hope that is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

I'm getting mixed messages here.

I'm going to go on record saying I believe you need to step away until you can be more civil.

I've been a civil servant for enough decades to know what that means. I thought I was being gracious and saving face all around - all I wanted to know was whether this was temp- or perma-.

But now it looks like you don't want to ban me after all.


As for this post, if you want me to stop lashing out, stop giving me reasons to lash out.

You mentioned me getting upset with you about the template issues. You didn't mention that I brought the issues to your attention weeks earlier, and from what I could see on the wiki you never did anything about them. And now you've mentioned you knew how to fix the issue - but you never did. The only way I know to fix the damage was to do a rollback, and I said so before doing the rollback - and now you appear to be upset that I did what nobody told me wasn't necessary.

I've also been asking repeatedly for feedback on the infoboxes that you folks wanted created. I get nothing in response to my questions, except from Labster.

I've also been asking repeatedly for help with the image licenses project. I get nothing in response to my statements.

And  now, LulzKiller mentions going to you in an off-wiki channel that we say is not connected to ATT (unlike the tenuous connection that we mention exists between this forum and the wiki) to have at least one conversation with you - which is one of the things that I remember everybody complaining about how the then-current admins at TV Tropes operated when the wiki was forked.

Why shouldn't I get upset?

You're asking for good faith - but I'm not seeing a lot of it in return.

So ... how long before I get what you're asking me to give?

Y'know Rob, I'm gonna do you a favor. Lulz told me he has things like school he's gonna be more busy with soon so he plans to step away from ATT for awhile. Since it's obvious from your response my appeal to reason has fallen on what appear to be deaf ears, I'm going to follow suit. It's very obvious you consider both him and I utter incompetents whose presence you would rather not suffer because no matter what we do, you have an issue with it.

If that's how you truly feel, then I'm signing out for awhile too and taking a vacation. I want no part in any decision-making (just assume I don't contest whatever you and Bob want if nothing else), will not be assisting with anything, and will be stepping away to do other things. You obviously believe you and Bob are the only ones competent to decide what goes or even exercise anything resembling actual power of ANY sort, so I'm going to not fight you on that and let you prove it.

I'll come back at some time in the future when you feel my help is actually worth your time. For the time being, it's obvious you do not wish either myself or LK to assist because think rather poorly of us, and to be frank, we are both tired of you lashing out at us and getting spat on for trying to contribute at all, so consider us not a problem for however long you wish to be free of us.

[Labster]

This seems a lot like Rob trying to read into what is written to him, which is what you normally do, when talking to an autistic person who is usually quite literal.  You two seem to be talking right past each other.

Okay, so I know I'm the absentee administrator/bureaucrat here, so this is going to sound a little lame coming from me but: The wiki isn't that important.  In the scheme of things it's a place we talk about pop culture.  And culture is important, as is literary criticism, but gosh here we are fighting over low-content pages to assert principles that aren't even that important. There's like no objectively right way to run things, we do it the best we can.  I wrote the policies to internally oppose each other on purpose because of that.  Moreover, you are not the only person protecting the wiki.

Geth, thanks for walking away.  You didn't need to leave the parting shots; please don't do that again.  Rob, you need to walk away for a while.  I'm not going to force you to do it.  I wrote a section in our policy about what to do about conflict based on our experiences and best practice over at Davis Wiki.  In some ways, that was easier because we all lived in the same place so you could actually go talk to someone in person, but it also meant offline conduct spread online.  But the main thing is getting angry on the internet rarely solves any problem, and just makes yourself miserable.  Actually, it makes other people miserable too.

Here's something I read recently in Facebook is other people:

Millions of Americans are miserable. The internet has “gotten worse” because Americans are not ok. Near-universal internet access means that there are immiserated, lonely people spending many hours a day online. The breakdown in the social fabric, climbing "prime-age" unemployment and high rates of addiction and mental illness manifest themselves in our mutually-constructed online spaces. There is a misery that wants to make itself known--to inflict itself on the world--that social media enables. We are reaping what we've sown; the interconnectedness enabled by the internet and the gains from open communication/cooperation cannot succeed while so many are left behind.

I'm not really sure why I'm sharing that exactly, other than to say that the misery is real and we need to understand that in each other.  And that the answer isn't likely to be found online, but with reflection on what is really important.

I ask the people involved in this to take some time off, as much as you need.  It will all be here when you get back.  And please read and try to understand the other person's opinion.  You don't have to respond now.  The wiki is not very important, not compared to the people who participate.  You are far more important.

[Black Aeronaut]

CRY-MAH-NEE folks.

Okay.  Gonna weigh in as well here.

I know I'm not much of an active troper, or anywhere near being part of the administrative staff.  I just happened to be around when the original TVT meltdown happened under Fast Eddie's auspices. (Edit: I also have the dubious honor of holding User ID Number 2 on these forums. Which means I was the first guy in line to register my account after the Crap-a-Talk Exodus)

HOWEVER.

I'm ADHD+ASD myself, so I've noticed a few things here.  And also, ya'll try riding herd on a bunch of younger siblings that have HAPY-FUN-TIME mental disorders like Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

So, forgive me for sounding full of myself here, but I think this makes me uniquely qualified to weigh in on this ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FANTASTIC CRINGE FEST.

(And yes, you guys - BOTH OF YOU - have been making me cringe something fierce here.  Not cool.)

First and foremost: siding with Labster here.  Both of you should probably take one or two weeks off from working on ATT, and do something that's more fun for you.  I don't really see it as a punitive measure, but rather a bit of vacation time complete with prescription chill pills.

Secondly...

Rob, you're gonna have to cut Geth at least a bit of slack.  He's wired similar to me, but apparently even more severely afflicted.  What this means is that the ADHD part of his brain will make his eyes slide completely off of even official communiques and hyperfocus on things that capture his interest more.  And the ASD part makes this even worse in that he's not the best at communicating at times.

Geth, as I've said, I know you have your handicaps because I have them as well.  Which is probably why we've debated so effectively in the past - we both got a general idea of how the other is ticking.  (That is, the process and not the ideology.)

That said...  We're gonna have to come up with a more effective means of communicating intents here.

This is why I pushed so hard for solutions that have the capability for real-time collaboration in the TNB project.  For ADHD+ASD people like myself and Geth, the phrase "No time like the present" applies with spades and a vengeance.  Even if you don't catch each other quite at the same time, these things work wonderfully - like a game of chess being played out over the course of several days between room mates whose schedules don't quite line up.

The Unofficial ATT Discord NEEDS TO BE OFFICIAL.  Discord is absolutely rife with features than can make staff communications far more effective, and is capable of hosting bots that have ridiculous capabilities.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON NOT TO BESIDES AN IRRATIONAL IDEA THAT DISCORD HAS A BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU THING GOING ON.  DISCORD DOES NOT USE YOUR EMAIL/PHONE NUMBER FOR ANYTHING MORE THAN LOG-IN CREDENTIALS, TWO-FACTOR AUTHENTICATION, AND PASSWORD RECOVERY.  THE ONLY WAY TO REVEAL YOUR EMAIL/PHONE NUMBER TO OTHERS IS IF YOU DO SO YOURSELF.

THE ADMINS AND DEVELOPERS AT DISCORD TAKE YOUR PRIVACY VERY FUCKING SERIOUSLY AND ANYTHING YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT LEAKS OR OTHER SECURITY ISSUES HAVE EITHER BEEN PATCHED OR ARE RUMORS STARTED BY ALARMIST IDIOTS AND TROLLS.

*ahem*

Now that I got that out of my system...

I got a proposal here on how the ATT Wiki ought to be managed.  It is simple.  It is concise.  And it will curb any further acrimony on matters of page deletions.  Because even if a page no longer jives with policy?  Deleting a page on ANY WIKI is pretty serious business.

Simply put?

Only Bob can delete pages.

And even then, only after there has been a quorum on whether or not a page should be deleted.

Two-Thirds Quorum of Admins and Bureaucrats for automatic approval of deletion.

One-Half Quorum of Admins and Bureaucrats will require further discussion on the matter before deletion can take place - if for no other reason than to make sure that everyone is on the same page and aware of why the deletion has been requested.  And at this point, it will also require that ALL STAFF MEMBERS weigh in on the matter.

Deleting a page is technically easy to do, and I'm sure that Bob won't really mind being the only person that can do it, provided that he's not the person being saddled with the sole responsibility for making that call.  And in cases where there is more than a few pages to be pruned?  I'm pretty sure we can set up a bot automate that process.  All Bob will have to do is tell it which ones, and smash the GO button.

Thoughts?  Concerns?  Bric-a-brak?

[robkelk]

... to assert principles that aren't even that important. ...

If the principle in question isn't that important, why was All The Tropes forked from TV Tropes over it?

Serious question, and I'd like an answer to it.

Rob, you need to walk away for a while.

Let me know for how long. Because if there isn't at least a tentative timetable, experience shows me that it'll be permanent.

[LulzKiller]

Let me know for how long.

Bump.

Let me lay it out for you. People just want you to quit lashing out. We have no idea if something is going on we don't know about in your personal life that is making you cranky, and if so, we sympathize and hope it passes. That said, you've been lashing out with a lot of disproportionate anger over things that do not deserve half the vehemence you have displayed, and you've come off like, to be frank, a bit of a jackass.

All The Tropes is a collaborative project where respectful dissent and good faith actions are not causes to demand people be stripped of certain rights. It is a wiki, meaning mistakes can be fixed and are not permanent, and it is no one person's personal fiefdom, it belongs to the community to edit, we in authority simply are supposed to keep the wiki running smoothly. Further, as admins, we should be mature. Being vicious does not help our goals, causes more people to get upset, and solves nothing.

If we have disagreements or issues come up, we can resolve things without bitterness, or at least I hope we can. All we, and I speak on behalf of myself, Lulzkiller, and anyone else you have been unkind to, ask is you either try to be more civil than you have been or at least take some time off to deal with whatever has soured your mood lately, you have been really vicious of late and not only does it just make people angry. I personally would like to think you can be better than that. You're a good person, Rob, and your recent outbursts of wrath are troubling.

I hope that is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

I'm getting mixed messages here.

I'm going to go on record saying I believe you need to step away until you can be more civil.

I've been a civil servant for enough decades to know what that means. I thought I was being gracious and saving face all around - all I wanted to know was whether this was temp- or perma-.

But now it looks like you don't want to ban me after all.


As for this post, if you want me to stop lashing out, stop giving me reasons to lash out.

You mentioned me getting upset with you about the template issues. You didn't mention that I brought the issues to your attention weeks earlier, and from what I could see on the wiki you never did anything about them. And now you've mentioned you knew how to fix the issue - but you never did. The only way I know to fix the damage was to do a rollback, and I said so before doing the rollback - and now you appear to be upset that I did what nobody told me wasn't necessary.

I've also been asking repeatedly for feedback on the infoboxes that you folks wanted created. I get nothing in response to my questions, except from Labster.

I've also been asking repeatedly for help with the image licenses project. I get nothing in response to my statements.

And  now, LulzKiller mentions going to you in an off-wiki channel that we say is not connected to ATT (unlike the tenuous connection that we mention exists between this forum and the wiki) to have at least one conversation with you - which is one of the things that I remember everybody complaining about how the then-current admins at TV Tropes operated when the wiki was forked. Maybe I'm misremembering.

But if I am remembering correctly, why shouldn't I get upset?

You're asking for good faith - but I'm not seeing a lot of it in return.

So ... how long before I get what you're asking me to give?

There's been a whole discussion while I slept so I just want to respond to some things. I want to reiterate I never wanted anyone to leave, and that Geth's semi-ultimatum seemed to be in response to Rob's request that I lose my admin status for seeking consensus on whether to delete a page. I appreciate Labster's and Black Aeronaut's feedback on this. I want to respond to this post by Rob:

1) I've never made an infobox, and if there was something you specifically wanted, I'm sorry that I don't have good design skills, I appreciate that Labster gave you feedback, I thought I had already praised you for your infobox work on stuff like the Oscar Best Picture and a literature award, if I haven't; I appreciate it and I want you to continue doing good work on infoboxes.

2) I have been manually doing image licences for a decent bunch of TVT fork images that were unlicensed, is there something you wanted me to do differently or more?

3) I contacted Geth because it was around 11pm UK time, and I wanted to quickly confirm my then knowledge of what we do with FF examples, he confirmed that with me and I moved to do some edits of that nature. Out of my relations with staff, I am "closest" (whatever that means) with Geth, I can quickly DM him on Discord about various matters including but not exclusively ATT. Me joining ATT was me just repaying the favour to Geth for help in other internet projects I used to be involved him, and here I am 5 years later. Maybe Rob thought me quickly pinging Geth sometimes to confirm current knowledge of ATT Policy was underhanded (if so, it was not the intention of anyone). But I can confirm with the AWB instance of bot jobs for disambiguating links, I asked Geth, and he told me to gather consensus first because of the nature of it. Geth from my point of view, tried in good faith to help me be efficient with my wiki work.

4) The discord server you mention is linked by ATT as an unofficial fan discord, which is at least a tenuous connection. BA's idea of an official Discord might be a good idea, if wanted.

Per Geth statement of me walking away or something, I'm just starting a new uni year tomorrow, so I'll just be less active. I want to continue contributing if possible, and hopefully Rob continues to contribute, once this whole situation calms down. I don't want Rob gone, and I don't want Rob to want me gone.

I hope everyone (including Rob) reads https://allthetropes.org/wiki/All_The_Tr...Wiki_Staff because I think at some point this got lost here. I never tried to disrespect or insult anyone in this conversation. This situation has gotten out of hand.

[robkelk]

There's been a whole discussion while I slept so I just want to respond to some things. I want to reiterate I never wanted anyone to leave, and that Geth's semi-ultimatum seemed to be in response to Rob's request that I lose my admin status for seeking consensus on whether to delete a page. I appreciate Labster's and Black Aeronaut's feedback on this. I want to respond to this post by Rob:

Thank you for being willing to have a discussion in good faith.

1) I've never made an infobox, and if there was something you specifically wanted, I'm sorry that I don't have good design skills, I appreciate that Labster gave you feedback, I thought I had already praised you for your infobox work on stuff like the Oscar Best Picture and a literature award, if I haven't; I appreciate it and I want you to continue doing good work on infoboxes.

While I appreciate the compliments, they don't give me any feedback.

I have repeatedly asked:

• What am I doing right?
  
• What am I doing wrong?
  
• What should be added?
  
• What should be taken away?
  

Right now, I'm getting nothing back regarding the templates. I need something, even if it's an honestly-stated "don't change anything".

2) I have been manually doing image licences for a decent bunch of TVT fork images that were unlicensed, is there something you wanted me to do differently or more?

The license templates are useful. Thank you for creating them.

The issue that I have been raising for months years is the magnitude of the work. Looney Toons tells uploaders that we have a legal obligation (his emphasis) to have the information present; I have in my sandbox three autogenerated lists of files that do not have the information present (all directly linked from this page that includes instructions on how to do the work); and despite how many times I've said that I would appreciate assistance with adding license information to the files that need it, I don't get that assistance unless somebody happens to notice the absence on a file while doing something else that needs to be done. (I did once get a request to do more work here, from somebody who hasn't done any license identification. We have a trope for that now.)

One reason why I am reluctant to take a break is that I know those three lists will be sitting and waiting for me, either virtually or completely untouched, upon my return. Everybody, I would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong. Please.

3) I contacted Geth because it was around 11pm UK time, and I wanted to quickly confirm my then knowledge of what we do with FF examples, he confirmed that with me and I moved to do some edits of that nature. Out of my relations with staff, I am "closest" (whatever that means) with Geth, I can quickly DM him on Discord about various matters including but not exclusively ATT. Me joining ATT was me just repaying the favour to Geth for help in other internet projects I used to be involved him, and here I am 5 years later. Maybe Rob thought me quickly pinging Geth sometimes to confirm current knowledge of ATT Policy was underhanded (if so, it was not the intention of anyone). But I can confirm with the AWB instance of bot jobs for disambiguating links, I asked Geth, and he told me to gather consensus first because of the nature of it. Geth from my point of view, tried in good faith to help me be efficient with my wiki work.

It's the perception. "The admins at ATT are hiding things, just like the admins at TVT" - not a direct quote from anyone, but a perception that's easy to make.

4) The discord server you mention is linked by ATT as an unofficial fan discord, which is at least a tenuous connection. BA's idea of an official Discord might be a good idea, if wanted.

We would need to be able to create accounts on it - and I have not yet found a discord server that either does not require an email address or will accept one of my "spam trap" disposable email aliases.

We would also need to publish a regular report of any decisions reached on a discord. With decisions made here, we can simply provide URLs to the entire discussions.

Per Geth statement of me walking away or something, I'm just starting a new uni year tomorrow, so I'll just be less active. I want to continue contributing if possible, and hopefully Rob continues to contribute, once this whole situation calms down. I don't want Rob gone, and I don't want Rob to want me gone.

I don't want you gone, and I've never said I want you gone. I just want you to take the hair-trigger off of the delete button, as per #2 on https://allthetropes.org/wiki/All_The_Tr...Wiki_Staff

I hope everyone (including Rob) reads https://allthetropes.org/wiki/All_The_Tr...Wiki_Staff because I think at some point this got lost here. I never tried to disrespect or insult anyone in this conversation. This situation has gotten out of hand.

[robkelk]

Rob, you need to walk away for a while.

Let me know for how long. Because if there isn't at least a tentative timetable, experience shows me that it'll be permanent.

I have just added "Short-duration block requested by the user - NOT A PUNITIVE BAN" to the list of block reasons.

You can let me know for how long by using it, please.

[LulzKiller]

There's been a whole discussion while I slept so I just want to respond to some things. I want to reiterate I never wanted anyone to leave, and that Geth's semi-ultimatum seemed to be in response to Rob's request that I lose my admin status for seeking consensus on whether to delete a page. I appreciate Labster's and Black Aeronaut's feedback on this. I want to respond to this post by Rob:

Thank you for being willing to have a discussion in good faith.

1) I've never made an infobox, and if there was something you specifically wanted, I'm sorry that I don't have good design skills, I appreciate that Labster gave you feedback, I thought I had already praised you for your infobox work on stuff like the Oscar Best Picture and a literature award, if I haven't; I appreciate it and I want you to continue doing good work on infoboxes.

While I appreciate the compliments, they don't give me any feedback.

I have repeatedly asked:

• What am I doing right?
  
• What am I doing wrong?
  
• What should be added?
  
• What should be taken away?
  

Right now, I'm getting nothing back regarding the templates. I need something, even if it's an honestly-stated "don't change anything".

2) I have been manually doing image licences for a decent bunch of TVT fork images that were unlicensed, is there something you wanted me to do differently or more?

The license templates are useful. Thank you for creating them.

The issue that I have been raising for months years is the magnitude of the work. Looney Toons tells uploaders that we have a legal obligation (his emphasis) to have the information present; I have in my sandbox three autogenerated lists of files that do not have the information present (all directly linked from this page that includes instructions on how to do the work); and despite how many times I've said that I would appreciate assistance with adding license information to the files that need it, I don't get that assistance unless somebody happens to notice the absence on a file while doing something else that needs to be done. (I did once get a request to do more work here, from somebody who hasn't done any license identification. We have a trope for that now.)

One reason why I am reluctant to take a break is that I know those three lists will be sitting and waiting for me, either virtually or completely untouched, upon my return. Everybody, I would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong. Please.

3) I contacted Geth because it was around 11pm UK time, and I wanted to quickly confirm my then knowledge of what we do with FF examples, he confirmed that with me and I moved to do some edits of that nature. Out of my relations with staff, I am "closest" (whatever that means) with Geth, I can quickly DM him on Discord about various matters including but not exclusively ATT. Me joining ATT was me just repaying the favour to Geth for help in other internet projects I used to be involved him, and here I am 5 years later. Maybe Rob thought me quickly pinging Geth sometimes to confirm current knowledge of ATT Policy was underhanded (if so, it was not the intention of anyone). But I can confirm with the AWB instance of bot jobs for disambiguating links, I asked Geth, and he told me to gather consensus first because of the nature of it. Geth from my point of view, tried in good faith to help me be efficient with my wiki work.

It's the perception. "The admins at ATT are hiding things, just like the admins at TVT" - not a direct quote from anyone, but a perception that's easy to make.

4) The discord server you mention is linked by ATT as an unofficial fan discord, which is at least a tenuous connection. BA's idea of an official Discord might be a good idea, if wanted.

We would need to be able to create accounts on it - and I have not yet found a discord server that either does not require an email address or will accept one of my "spam trap" disposable email aliases.

We would also need to publish a regular report of any decisions reached on a discord. With decisions made here, we can simply provide URLs to the entire discussions.

Per Geth statement of me walking away or something, I'm just starting a new uni year tomorrow, so I'll just be less active. I want to continue contributing if possible, and hopefully Rob continues to contribute, once this whole situation calms down. I don't want Rob gone, and I don't want Rob to want me gone.

I don't want you gone, and I've never said I want you gone. I just want you to take the hair-trigger off of the delete button, as per #2 on https://allthetropes.org/wiki/All_The_Tr...Wiki_Staff

I hope everyone (including Rob) reads https://allthetropes.org/wiki/All_The_Tr...Wiki_Staff because I think at some point this got lost here. I never tried to disrespect or insult anyone in this conversation. This situation has gotten out of hand.

Always happy to have good faith discussions; and that is what I have usually known ATT to be focused on:

1) I think the perhaps lack of my own creating infoboxes on stuff like awards, etc is that I was perfectly happy with your infoboxes as they are, the only possible improvement I can think of immediately is the inclusion of maybe an image. Stuff like the Discworld needs years added to each of the novels too. Just minor things that are easily solvable

In terms of infoboxes like book/episode/trope etc at top of articles I propose these issues:

I interpret elevator pitch as the same as laconic, others might not. We need to reduce confusion here.

Where do we define "central themes" and what is acceptable in those boxes or not, I think Rateyourmusic.com do a fantastic example of this with their "descriptors" and we may look for inspiration there.

What was your thought process per comparing infobox book here and on WP? Why did you remove stuff like country published from the WP and keep others, insights like this might help us achieve a infobox standard for ATT policy.

2)

I have to burst a bubble here: I've already been doing that very slowly over time.

Instead of using your list, I was using https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?tit...ed_license as my goto, and licensing images that way, and then using some of the linked articles and fixing flaws, which is why you might have gotten the impression that I was only fixing images of articles I noticed, then sometimes it was the other way round. You may notice on the link how most of the number starting filenames are almost gone from the list, that was me, you can cross-reference with my contribs on files. I think because I am someone who does indeed do multiple different "projects" at once, to keep my ADD brain focused, can have helped make you feel that I was not working on them, I was. The NASA images I had to create the CC license that NASA Hubble used were an example of me using the link above.

I agree more should be done here, but IDK how to make the process faster. AWB is much better with text alone, than images. I don't know how to make it automate "ADD CATEGORY OF NAME OF LINKED PAGE", also I try to make actual judgements of the images themselves instead of just plastering fairuse on anything, so naturally with actors I try to check for commons images to replace them first. I try sometimes to reverse image search the original if there aren't.

This is something I also want to accomplish, and it is a frustration that we never communicated that to each other.

3)

I never meant to hide anything, and I understand a false perception may arise, if anything; I'm happy that this situation helped arise a very clear confusion regarding FF and CM examples. I thought all along all examples were kill on sight, and Geth had that perception too, it is clear both you and LT all along thought that only applied to the specific page itself. This is a classic example of how different intepretations can arise from the same text.

4)

I respect those who are concerned with privacy in regards to that. I think we should do the report with decisions made here too, due to this not being ATT/Miraheze

5) 

To be clear, the reason I think it escalated was that instead of your messages coming across as "I believe the wiki should be less deletionistic [towards defunct works] and I wish the staff should also not be so", it very explicitly came to multiple of us as "I really want [me] to no longer be staff".

Quotes:
"Should Derivative really be trusted with the mod bit?"
"I an already going through the deletion log, and I am becoming more convinced that you should not be trusted with the ability to delete pages. However, doing anything about that requires consensus."

Maybe you were frustrated, but this had the air of a rather hefty escalation of what was a misunderstanding per the FF examples, and a civil disagreement when it came to the ASM page. This naturally caused the argument between you and Geth to escalate, and now both of you want to take breaks, which is fine, but of course since both of you are valuable, this was a sad result to something that didn't need to happen.

Bob has at the start of the ASM talk made a solution I am interested with in terms of clarifying defunct works which are not accessible, and once were, I hope we can discuss how exactly to implement.

[GethN7]

As for me, I just don't want the drama, that's why I'm noping out for a bit. Besides, I have a few game reviews I want to finish up before the end of October and I'd like to not have to multi-task hashing out some asinine disputes. If you guys can settle stuff fine without me for awhile, wonderful, I'll be back when I'm not so busy, I just decided to nope out for a bit since I thought this was just some wounded feelings that needed mending and it mushroomed into something more melodramatic.

Basically, just consider me off doing some IRL things I need getting done. I just want this whole sad incident to be over and if you guys want to hammer out some policy guidelines to prevent future silly incidents, consider me an advocate and link me what is written, I'll take it to heart.

[Bob Schroeck]

Holy freaking crap. I spend half my weekend shopping and playing City of Heroes instead of reading the forums and this blows up behind my back. And there's so much of it now that I can't just absorb it all and give an off-the-cuff response that I can trust as being appropriate.

Rob, I apologize for not responding to your requests for help. I've had my own personal plans and priorities to address, as random as my edits may seem at times, but I'll see what I can do to help.

Lulz, I'll repeat what I said on the wiki. In general, works don't get deleted unless they're fake. This wasn't my proclamation, I should note. Four years ago I proposed deleting the page for a work that no longer existed and could no longer be found -- I forget which it was at this late date -- and the rest of the staff said "no", for the very reasons I echoed to you. I created the MIA template in response to that incident. Just... relax on proposing deletions. And if you've found something you're certain really does need it, add the delete template to the page and start a discussion about why on its talk page. Because I have to admit Rob isn't the only one who has recently developed a perception of you as having an itchy trigger finger for deletes.

[LulzKiller]

Holy freaking crap.  I spend half my weekend shopping and playing City of Heroes instead of reading the forums and this blows up behind my back.  And there's so much of it now that I can't just absorb it all and give an off-the-cuff response that I can trust as being appropriate.

Rob, I apologize for not responding to your requests for help.  I've had my own personal plans and priorities to address, as random as my edits may seem at times, but I'll see what I can do to help.

Lulz, I'll repeat what I said on the wiki.  In general, works don't get deleted unless they're fake.  This wasn't my proclamation, I should note.  Four years ago I proposed deleting the page for a work that no longer existed and could no longer be found -- I forget which it was at this late date -- and the rest of the staff said "no", for the very reasons I echoed to you.  I created the MIA template in response to that incident.  Just... relax on proposing deletions.  And if you've found something you're certain really does need it, add the delete template to the page and start a discussion about why on its talk page.  Because I have to admit Rob isn't the only one who has recently developed a perception of you as having an itchy trigger finger for deletes.

That's a fair response. I think I just have a real aversion to pages I think only existed as long as it was connected to a random TVT user's involvement with that subject; if that makes sense; which is why my deletion proposals only usually apply to fan works and roleplay groups and the like (I've never proposed deletion on Films, TV shows, Video Games etc that weren't fake). I think I am also more cynical than the rest of you on viability for these works to be still existing somewhere. I saw them as part of the debris that the fork gave us. Since what you were mentioning 4 years ago I have tried to always get consensus first.

I've never had an issue being outvoted in a deletion proposal. I hope any future discussion naturally doesn't get to what you just had to walk into.

[robkelk]

2)

I have to burst a bubble here: I've already been doing that very slowly over time.

That bubble needed bursting.

Thank you for the help, and I apologize for saying that I wasn't getting it from you.

Rob, I apologize for not responding to your requests for help. I've had my own personal plans and priorities to address, as random as my edits may seem at times, but I'll see what I can do to help.

I understand - you 're busy with the moderation queue and catching issues that could put the wiki at risk.


Since you've mentioned "not responding":

... to assert principles that aren't even that important. ...

If the principle in question isn't that important, why was All The Tropes forked from TV Tropes over it?

Serious question, and I'd like an answer to it.

Rob, you need to walk away for a while.

Let me know for how long. Because if there isn't at least a tentative timetable, experience shows me that it'll be permanent.

Bump.

[robkelk]

Since nobody's answered despite me asking four times, I assume I don't need to take a break from the wiki after all.

So...

This trope candidate. I don't see anything with the same name (which I think is a concise, clear, and clever name, BTW) on TVT. The only reason I'm wondering whether it might be there is because I just changed a CamelCase redlink to point to an existing work page. Could somebody with better TVT-search-fu double-check whether this is original, please?