All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXV

[robkelk]

Both of these sound good to me.

[Bob Schroeck]

Regarding Happybirthday, what do you suggest? I'm having trouble thinking of an appropriate response (I find my thoughts drifting to permaban and queue purge, and I'm sure there's something less extreme to try first).

I like the idea of making the visual editor a manual opt-in. (Personally I would like to get rid of it entirely, but I acknowledge that other editors might like it.)

[robkelk]

I see from the moderation queue that he still isn't adding markup to his examples even after having had that pointed out. Refusing to learn from a mistake that's been pointed out is specifically grounds for a tempban.

Do we want to play whack-a-mole?

[Bob Schroeck]

If we all have hammers, it won't be as much work for any one of us...

Call him on it, maybe even cite the sockpuppet thing. (We need to make that a formal policy. <adds another item to monstrous list>)

[Bob Schroeck]

Regarding Happybirthday's mod queue entries, a number of them were actually free from problems, mostly by virtue of being very short. I've passed them and left four problematic edits in the queue.

[GethN7]

Dunno if you guys are interested, but due to being very busy, I mostly just use my sandbox to gather tropes for some pages I'd like to make but lack the time for. If any of you want to poach my work and flesh it out yourselves, be my guest, just leave a reason if you edit or remove content to start your own page here:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/User:GethN7/sandbox

[robkelk]

Thanks for that permission, but I don't recognize anything on your list.

[robkelk]

I know that this shows two tropes, and one of them is "Running Gag". The other one... is not "Big Breasts, Big Deal". What is it?

Danbooru link - this particular 4koma should be safe for work, but it is on Danbooru.

[Bob Schroeck]

Victoria's Secret Compartment is clearly involved, although I don't think we've got anything about losing stuff in there.

[Bob Schroeck]

So what should we do about this asshole?

[robkelk]

So what should we do about this asshole?

My reply:

Of course this needs a different name - the Yanks never learned how to spell "artefact" correctly. :)

Let's see whether the point is taken.

[Bob Schroeck]

In the course of dealing with WD Studios ("this asshole" cited above), I realized that while we have frequently cited the guidelines for how to get a page name changed, we never actually wrote them down anywhere. So I just drafted the following, based in part on our "How to Get a Rule Changed" page (which we may want to modify based on what I wrote here, as it's a little loose and flippant). Anyway, presented for admin review and approval before adding it to the site:

How to Get a Page Name Changed

Because of the potential for vandalism and [[Edit War]]s, the ability to rename pages -- called "Move" by MediaWiki for those unfamiliar with the wiki software -- has been limited to the wiki admins and moderators. However, this does not mean it is impossible to change a page's name. Like [[All The Tropes:How to Get a Rule Changed|other ways to change things at ATT]], it's a matter of conensus.

The process is simple:
* First, start a thread on the talk page of the page you want to rename or in the ATT forums, in which you propose the name change and lay out the reasons why you think it's both appropriate and necessary.
** You are responsible for contacting as many users as possible and asking them to weigh in on your proposal. Not all users pay attention to the forums or even talk pages, so you can't rely on anyone just stumbling over your thread and offering their opinion.
* Convince the other users of the wiki you're right.

You or an administrator can call for a vote at any time, with the following caveats:
* You need to establish a consensus -- AKA a clear majority -- that the change is wanted. This is at least three more "Yes" votes than there are "No" votes. (In the simplest case, this means three users need to vote "Yes" with no one opposing.)
** Your own vote counts, so you should always have at least one "Yes" vote.<ref>If you don't, why are you even proposing the change?</ref>
* Lack of response by the other users is not to be considered approval of the change. You need explicit "Yes" votes, not simply an absence of people saying "No". Disinterest or apathy from other users means you haven't made your case.
* Voting periods should run at least 48 hours. Not every user is on every single day.
* All votes are final. Once a consensus one way or the other has been determined, that's it. No retries, no begging the Governor of Georgia to find extra votes in your favor.

If at the end of the voting the consensus is to make the change, a moderator or admin will move the page and note that it has been done in the thread.

== Some hints: ==

* It helps immensely if you are an established editor with a history on the site. While we won't dismiss a newbie out of hand, having "street cred" will get more (and more serious) attention paid to your suggestion.
* Be polite (or at least calm), even if — ''especially'' if — the discussion isn't going your way. Getting snarky or insulting because you're not finding the support you want is not going to win you points with ''anyone''.

[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]
[[Category:Wiki Policy]]
[[Category:Wiki FAQs]]

[robkelk]

I have no issues with anything presented immediately above.

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, I should add a "don't do a TVT move -- creating a new page and copy'n'pasting the old page's contents" section.

[GethN7]

I'm leaving our problem child a message to cool his jets while he can.

[robkelk]

In the course of dealing with WD Studios ("this asshole" cited above), I realized that while we have frequently cited the guidelines for how to get a page name changed, we never actually wrote them down anywhere.  So I just drafted the following, based in part on our "How to Get a Rule Changed" page (which we may want to modify based on what I wrote here, as it's a little loose and flippant).  Anyway, presented for admin review and approval before adding it to the site:

How to Get a Page Name Changed

Because of the potential for vandalism and [[Edit War]]s, the ability to rename pages -- called "Move" by MediaWiki for those unfamiliar with the wiki software -- has been limited to the wiki admins and moderators.  However, this does not mean it is impossible to change a page's name.  Like [[All The Tropes:How to Get a Rule Changed|other ways to change things at ATT]], it's a matter of conensus.

The process is simple:
* First, start a thread on the talk page of the page you want to rename or in the ATT forums, in which you propose the name change and lay out the reasons why you think it's both appropriate and necessary.
** You are responsible for contacting as many users as possible and asking them to weigh in on your proposal.  Not all users pay attention to the forums or even talk pages, so you can't rely on anyone just stumbling over your thread and offering their opinion.
* Convince the other users of the wiki you're right.

You or an administrator can call for a vote at any time, with the following caveats:
* You need to establish a consensus -- AKA a clear majority -- that the change is wanted.  This is at least three more "Yes" votes than there are "No" votes.  (In the simplest case, this means three users need to vote "Yes" with no one opposing.)
** Your own vote counts, so you should always have at least one "Yes" vote.<ref>If you don't, why are you even proposing the change?</ref>
* Lack of response by the other users is not to be considered approval of the change.  You need explicit "Yes" votes, not simply an absence of people saying "No".  Disinterest or apathy from other users means you haven't made your case.
* Voting periods should run at least 48 hours.  Not every user is on every single day.
* All votes are final.  Once a consensus one way or the other has been determined, that's it.  No retries, no begging the Governor of Georgia to find extra votes in your favor.

If at the end of the voting the consensus is to make the change, a moderator or admin will move the page and note that it has been done in the thread.

== Some hints: ==

* It helps immensely if you are an established editor with a history on the site.  While we won't dismiss a newbie out of hand, having "street cred" will get more (and more serious) attention paid to your suggestion.
* Be polite (or at least calm), even if — ''especially'' if — the discussion isn't going your way.  Getting snarky or insulting because you're not finding the support you want is not going to win you points with ''anyone''.

[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]
[[Category:Wiki Policy]]
[[Category:Wiki FAQs]]

Just had a thought... Are we going to apply these rules to "grammar fix" page renames? (For example, changing "Batman the Animated Series" to "Batman: The Animated Series".)

Why or why not?

[Bob Schroeck]

No -- fixing grammar, capitalization and punctuation is a maintenance issue. These rules should only apply to more substantial changes.

And I'll add a paragraph to that effect in the text, and post the newest version below once I do.

[Bob Schroeck]

And here's the revised (and larger) page proposal:

---

Because of the potential for vandalism and [[Edit War]]s, the ability to rename pages -- called "Move" by MediaWiki for those unfamiliar with the wiki software -- has been limited to the wiki admins and moderators. However, this does not mean it is impossible to change a page's name.

Changes in grammar, punctuation and capitalization to match our [[All The Tropes:Style Guide|Style Guide]] are an automatic thing -- point it out and an admin will take care of it after confirming it's needed. Quite honestly, though, it's unlikely (though not impossible) that any pages remain that require this level of renaming. We've been at this for nearly a decade as of early 2022 -- all the low- and medium-hanging fruit has been taken care of, and we're pretty sure we've gotten all the high-hanging fruit as well. But you never know...

Likewise, correcting a work name is an automatic approval as well. Even collectively, the mods can't possibly know the proper form for every work's title, and [[TV Tropes]] was (and still is) a bit slipshod when it came to work names. So there may well be things out there that need correction. We'll make that correction without a fuss.

However, sometimes name changes are bit less... cut-and-dried. More subjective. Like renaming a trope. Then things can get a bit more complicated. But not by much -- like [[All The Tropes:How to Get a Rule Changed|other ways to change things at ATT]], it becomes a matter of conensus.

If you want to propose a change to the name of a trope or other page without an objectively "correct" name, the process is simple:
* First, start a thread on the talk page of the page you want to rename or in the ATT forums, in which you propose the name change and lay out the reasons why you think it's both appropriate and necessary.
** You are responsible for contacting as many users as possible and asking them to weigh in on your proposal. Not all users pay attention to the forums or even talk pages, so you can't rely on anyone just stumbling over your thread and offering their opinion.
* Convince the other users of the wiki you're right.

You or an administrator can call for a vote at any time, with the following caveats:
* You need to establish a consensus -- AKA a clear majority -- that the change is wanted. This is at least three more "Yes" votes than there are "No" votes. (In the simplest case, this means three users need to vote "Yes" with no one opposing.)
** Your own vote counts, so you should always have at least one "Yes" vote.<ref>If you don't, why are you even proposing the change?</ref>
* Lack of response by the other users is not to be considered approval of the change. You need explicit "Yes" votes, not simply an absence of people saying "No". Disinterest or apathy from other users means you haven't made your case.
* Voting periods should run at least 48 hours. Not every user is on every single day.
* All votes are final. Once a consensus one way or the other has been determined, that's it. No retries, no begging the Governor of Georgia to find extra votes in your favor.

If at the end of the voting the consensus is to make the change, a moderator or admin will move the page and note that it has been done in the thread.

'''IMPORTANT:''' Do ''not'' take it upon yourself to do a [[TV Tropes]]-style "rename": that is, creating a blank page with the new name then cut'n'pasting the original page's content into it. For one thing, that breaks the chain of history associated with the page, which is something the Move function preserves, and which we ''need'' to preserve under the terms of our Creative Commons license. Second, it will ''not'' endear you to the admin staff and is liable to get you tagged as a vandal, ''especially'' if you've gone ahead and made such a change without a consensus. We can undo such a "rename" in seconds (unlike TVT) and it ''will'' be undone as soon as we see such a thing has been done, even if the rename has been approved.

== Some hints: ==

* It helps immensely if you are an established editor with a history on the site. While we won't dismiss a newbie out of hand, having "street cred" will get more (and more serious) attention paid to your suggestion.
* Be polite (or at least calm), even if — ''especially'' if — the discussion isn't going your way. Getting snarky or insulting because you're not finding the support you want is not going to win you points with ''anyone''.

[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]
[[Category:Wiki Policy]]
[[Category:Wiki FAQs]]

[Bob Schroeck]

Okay, if there are no objections or other changes to make, I'll put this up on the wiki at some point later today.

[robkelk]

No objections here.

[Bob Schroeck]

It's later. <grin>

[Black Aeronaut]

It's later.  <grin>

Now there's a trope...

"I'm going to save this for later...  ........  ...It's later!"

[robkelk]

So what should we do about this asshole?

Said asshole tried to rules-lawyer out of Geth's warning. My reply.

Somebody else deal with him, please.

[robkelk]

Oh, and I've finished going through Category:Example Sectionectomy. The pages where I didn't ask whether there should have been a sectionectomy won't be getting questions about their sectionectomies from me.

[robkelk]

Does this belong on Black Sheep Hit/Quotes, or should it go somewhere else?

{{quote|You know, there's an irony to this. Lenny [Kravitz] writes all of his own songs, but guess what was the biggest record of his career? "American Woman".
|[[Burton Cummings]] (frontman of [[The Guess Who]]), May 8, 2020}}