[OOC][PLOT][ARC 1] Planning for Season 1 - The Retcon

[Labster]

I still don't get what this fight is about.  Black Aeronaut is the one who told us that we would all be better off if Benjamin never existed, and Rob wrote a story along those lines to help process his feelings.

The problem is the way Rob has it set up.  Look carefully at this part from Belldandy's letter.

...but there are a few people who we approached in this version of reality that we did not approach in the reality of your birth, and vice versa.

This does not remove Benjamin from the setting.  It only removes him from any active story telling.  He is still there, technically speaking.  And I don't want any sort of wiggle room on this.  I do not want anyone to think that maybe I can and should come back.

Oh don't worry, I don't think there's any chance of that happening after this thread.

 ... I do not want any seeds of doubt and/or hope for that left behind.  And not just because someone says so, but also because its there in the writing.  There will be no way to bring him back because he was never, in any incarnation of TNB, there in the first place.

If you think no one is gonna think that, then recall what Dartz said earlier - that it leaves a way for me back into the setting.  And he's part of the project, even if not all that active.  (EDIT: Dartz explicitly says, "All the data is still there."  And if the data is still there?  Then so is Benjamin.)

This is actually a good argument, in the parentheses.

There is also the hidden message in the context of what Rob has set up.  Why would Rob Donaldson remake the universe so Benjamin wasn't an apartment manager?  In a deconstructionist setting, that cannot have been accidental on his character's part.  The only possible explanation is that Rob Donaldson did that on purpose.

wait let me pull from later down...

And as far as many people are concerned, myself included, Death of the Author does not apply to Self Insert characters.

So there's a hidden message different from what the author is saying, but death of the author can't apply.  Right. 

Also those "many people" are flat out wrong, and this is basic fucking common sense.  When ancient Egyptians died, they didn't get to tell their own story and Osiris was like "okay you sound good", no, Ma'at put your heart on the scales with her feather and tested it out.  Even when you're the author of your own story, you don't tell the truth.  You don't fully understand your own societal context. 

There are so many negative implications for that.  And these are the sort of implications that are utterly toxic to projects like TNB.  Even if it's not Rob's intent, it implies a willingness to hurt another Author by fucking over their SI.  And besides, only the Author of a said SI has the right to do that to their character.

And while arguing against death of the author, you've assumed a whole lot about the intent of the SI and the author that I simply do not see.  If continuity is rewritten, how can he possibly hurt?  He never existed, so how can he feel harm?

And there is also what I said earlier - if you're just rewriting everything else so Benjamin was never there, then why bother with this?  It's superfluous and unneeded.  The ONLY reason you would have something like this is if you are trying to send some sort of message.  The connotations of this particular message are not good at all.

To me what the message expresses is pure grief.  Sadness over what was lost, and what could never be spoken.  How it puts a metaphysical weight on the Belldandy in the same way it does on the author.  And it doesn't matter if Rob leaves this story in, or not.  Belldandy will still know.  She will know if Ben still exists happily in some quiet corner of the setting but only in my mind, or if Ben never existed, she will know what could have been.

And as far as many people are concerned, myself included, Death of the Author does not apply to Self Insert characters.

The only possible way to make this so that there are no negative implications or connotations is to fully acknowledge that my character exists in the setting.  Even if you don't drop his name, you have to say that this person existed, and that Rob Donaldson explicitly meant him no harm.

That is why I do not want this to be in Rob's story.  And they have little to do with what I actually want, save for my wanting my character out, and without harming the project any more than my departure has to.

The amount of times that we have all accepted stories in which you're dealing with your emotions, it's really amazing how much you can attack someone else for doing the same thing.  It's incredibly selfish.  You're making a point of assuming the worst about people.  You're telling people that you're completely out of the project, and also have been telling us what we can and cannot write nonstop.  A lot of this you have the right to do, but it's the lack of empathy for what it's like to be on the other side of this breakup that really gets to me.

We're doing all of this work because you got upset at us, for basically no reason.  Well, not quite no reason, just a really dumb one.  It's because Rob wrote a character that, God forbid, did not like your SI.  A character with lots of issues who didn't like you too even though you also have issues.  I mean, characters not liking other characters is called drama.

Oh right, and I said that one paragraph seemed too Mary Sue, and the character should be focused on herself more than on SI!Benjamin.  Isn't the point of team writing to have criticism?  I mean, gosh, critiques means someone actually read the story.  Warms the cockles of my heart, it does.  But time after time I've offered constructive criticism, and you've taken it as a personal attack.  I had to learn to never say anything bad about your SI because you would project everything as an attack on yourself.  That's what you're doing right now -- projecting.  You're seeing a sad mystery as an attack on your person, just like everything else.

At first I was sad to see you go, because you've done some of the best writing in this project, particularly in the action scenes.  But you've also done some of the very worst writing, so on second thought, maybe I'm glad.  I had to avoid writing any kind of close collaboration with you or your SI, because I would never be able to speak my mind.

For example, all of the stuff sexualizing children.  That is totally fine as a writing topic, really.  It's definitely part of the human condition.  But not one I ever wanted to participate in.  I mean, okay, Nanoha and Fate are functionally adults in children's bodies.  But then there's the stuff with Homura.  And giving a five-year old character orgasms.  And, like, fuck, that is not what I signed up for.  You have a right to write these kinds of stories.  But I could never criticize.  I had to keep Yomi and Tomo away from Ben, because if they thought Kimura-sensei was a huge pervert for liking high school girls, what on earth would they think of Ben?  And Skuld, oh man, what would Skuld think?  Of course I could never write those characters' natural reactions because you would take it as a deep personal insult.  And God, the recent stuff where you essentially came up with a compulsion spell so your SI could rape Hagall, that's not cool.  Again, fair game for writing, but not in a place where other characters could never criticize.

I mean, seriously, I was telling my parents about us and the phone calls, and when I explained you, my mother asked, "Why have a writing circle if you can't take criticism?"  I honestly can't answer that.  Maybe it's just your need for praise, I guess?  Was that what it was about?

I guess that's what the giant Marty Stu was about.  Last week you were talking about how your SI's ability would just casually make Ranma really weak.  Or all of the girls that would fall for Ben, because he's so cool, but also has all of this emotional baggage that he likes to talk about in excruciating detail.  It may shock you to learn this but this is not how reality works.  Females do not choose mates based on whether or not they deserved to suffer, but on fitness, and all of that stuff would chase nearly all women away.  Most human relationship behavior is about hiding flaws until the other side is willing to tolerate them.  You put that all out in the open, which is kinda typically autistic.  But damn, does it lack verisimilitude.  It comes across as pure wish fulfillment.  Again, it's fine to write this, but it's not what I signed up for, and not what I ever wanted to participate in -- and especially so if I cannot offer criticism.

What I did sign up for was the writing prompt, most obviously.  You're a very good /r/writingprompts, Black Aeronaut.  But working with you hindered my integration into the setting, and I could never truly collaborate with you.  Even writing at the margins of the world meant I had to deal with a setting of straight up goofy stuff like a mad scientist levitating random buildings because ???, alternate universe Benjamins, and OOC Sailor Uranus in tears for daring to make one mistake for what she thought was justice because it hurt poor little Benjamin.  And we could never get you to kill your darlings, not even once, not even the ones not about your SI.

And this whole thing about you leaving got started because you couldn't tolerate a fucked-up fictional character dissing your SI, who is not even you.  An imaginary mental case saying they don't like an imaginary version of you caused you to freak the fuck out, and abandon a project you worked on for years.  You interpreted this as Rob giving you a big fuck you.  No, that's not how most people work.  For example, this post is me telling you off.  There's none of that subtle bullshit that you interpret as imaginary slings and arrows.  No, it's me just calling you a total nutcase, because you can't distinguish between yourself and a fictional version of yourself that impresses underage girls by firing antimatter out his ass.

I'm tired of dealing with calming you down over imagined slights and I'm tired of staying quiet about things that could really improve the story.  I'm tired of listening to you read stories about how your family sucked, but you're this strong kind man everyone immediately respects and now it's time to have transform into a girl and have sex with my underage-looking robot friend Taiga.  Ugh, it's so cringe.  And most of all, I'm tired of you telling other people what things they can and cannot write, while you yourself would erupt in anger or depression if anyone suggested change your writing a little bit.

Seriously, go away.  We don't want you to rejoin the group.  There's no chance of it.  There, now Rob doesn't have to change his story, because there is no chance that Ben can ever be part of the story again.  Everyone gets what they want.

[Bob Schroeck]

I wouldn't have put it quite the way that Brent has, but yeah.

I'm not going to go into detail on my thoughts on the matter, but I will say that the primary reason that TNB!Bob and TNB!Peggy have absolutely no powerups (in my notes, in the wiki, anywhere other than idle thought) is because TNB!Ben's unending escalation with new powers gained seemingly hourly made it a joke. TNB!Ben had so much and demanded so much more that there was no point in taking even minor enhancements, not even Washuu-provided healthcare. If we were going to be so outclassed, we might as well be outclassed at baseline, instead of baseline+1.

And when did the story turn into something about the landlords anyway? We were supposed to be a convenient device for deconstructing the SI phenomenon as well as giving the displacees allies and homes. We were supposed to have been (mostly) background features, not main characters. TNB!Ben becoming the Silver Age Superman, ramping up to a level where he could simultaneously depose both Hild and Kami-sama -- this is a violation of the original concept you sold us on. Our SIs weren't supposed to be the protagonists, according to that pitch. Was that a lie? Was the whole purpose of this to get a captive audience to watch while you turned your SI into Twister-Plus? If so, that's not what I signed up for.

You don't need us to write an all-powerful SI whom everyone loves and everyone must love. Just... take your stuff and write it on your own. Brent, Rob and I are going to try to write the story you sold us on, before the bait-and-switch.

[robkelk]

You don't need us to write an all-powerful SI whom everyone loves and everyone must love.  Just... take your stuff and write it on your own.  Brent, Rob and I are going to try to write the story you sold us on, before the bait-and-switch.

Agreed. My SI has one last gift to receive, and then he'll be perfect as a Companion to The Doctor Mizuno. In the mean time, isekai-deconstruction awaits.

[Bob Schroeck]

For example, all of the stuff sexualizing children. That is totally fine as a writing topic, really. It's definitely part of the human condition. But not one I ever wanted to participate in. I mean, okay, Nanoha and Fate are functionally adults in children's bodies. But then there's the stuff with Homura. And giving a five-year old character orgasms. And, like, fuck, that is not what I signed up for.

Oh yeah, and that. What Brent said. More bait and switch -- I did not expect the project I joined to produce borderline child porn.

Ben, copy all that material to your local storage, like right now. Because this is something that I will be deleting outright. No argument, no justifications. If you don't already have a local copy, make one now, and let me know when it's made. When you do -- or shortly after Memorial Day, which ever comes first -- it's getting permanently deleted from the forums.

[Black Aeronaut]

I've removed the story posts from the thread, as well as my part of the discussion towards the end.

When you're ready, you may delete the rest.

[robkelk]

Step 1 of the retcon on the wiki has been completed - the work has been identified.

Now to actually carry out the work.

[robkelk]

Step 1 of the retcon on the wiki has been completed - the work has been identified.

Now to actually carry out the work.

Or maybe not - somebody marked a few pages as okay while they still linked to pages that are being archived-and-removed.

[Labster]

I think that can be solved by looking at Special:WantedPages when this is all over, and unwanting the pages.

[robkelk]

I'm looking at "What Links Here" for now...

[robkelk]

So... a real life geographic feature is standing in for a fictional one.

"The role of Lake Wobegon is being played by Kranz Lake, located close to the center of the same county as the fictional lake."

[robkelk]

Something for a background scene during the Halloween Party re-write: Utena, Kurumi, and Chibiusa, as the core of "The Pink-Headed League", debate whether Akari, Sora Naegino, and Hikaru Shidou have hair that's pink enough to let them join.

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, and we also need an epic mock-sword battle between Gomez, Utena (and friends) and the Magic Knights, with everyone wearing roses rescued from the floor of Morticia's greenhouse. Possibly leading into the discovery that the entrance to the dueling arena can now be found in Buena Vista Park across the street...

[Norgarth]

A 'mock-sword' battle?  is that a fight where you use sticks, umbrellas, foam/Nerf swords and such?

[Labster]

It's kind of sad that the way we're going, I'll have to scrap a whole lot that I had written for the Halloween party. Tomo can't become a baroness, which means Book doesn't get his scene with Artoria, and then we'll have to do some rewriting of the dream, and of course Tomo won't get to offer to take over for Minako. A lot of butterfly effect.

[robkelk]

Why can't Tomo become a baroness? If she storms a gazebo at Addams Mansion, Gomez will be right there beside her - and that'll count for something in Minako's eyes.

What it'll count for, I'm not sure, but something.

[Bob Schroeck]

A 'mock-sword' battle?  is that a fight where you use sticks, umbrellas, foam/Nerf swords and such?

You know, that's not what I had in mind, but that could be a lot of fun. No, I was thinking more of a mini rose tournament, for the fun of it.

Once Gomez got it through his head that the guests are not as... resistant to injury as the average Addams.

Why can't Tomo become a baroness? If she storms a gazebo at Addams Mansion, Gomez will be right there beside her - and that'll count for something in Minako's eyes.

What it'll count for, I'm not sure, but something.

What Rob said. I would hate to lose that -- and the "Prince Tomo" sequence while trick-or-treating, while we're at it.

[Labster]

I'm having trouble getting in the right headspace for it. Does Tomo act the same way if the real Utena is around, nearby? Or even decide to dress up as her at all? And SF is not San Antonio. I mean I know kids are mean but it's also harder to see a kid being hurt for crossdressing there. I mean, I can leave the scene in, but it just makes less sense than it did before. Everything else is a consequence of that one scene being removed, that's all.

[Bob Schroeck]

Mm. Good point about SF and crossdressing, as well as being immediately Utena-adjacent. Damn, though, I thought that entire passage was a fantastic character moment for Tomo.

[robkelk]

Well, I wasn't going to post the recton to Donaldson en Kazakiri until we'd heard from Inquisitive Raven, but now it's become necessary... Note that this is still tentative, pending updates if somebody wants to write the characters named in it.

This turns the Retcon into a Cosmic Retcon, which as a writer I much prefer to simply saying "that didn't happen any more".

Based on discussion and feedback from yesterday's teleconference, this is now how Donaldson en Kazakiri ends. This is no longer tentative. A complete copy of the entire story will be posted to its dedicated story thread later, once the retconning is complete.

And, yes, the "time of great emergency" that Belldandy mentions has already been decided upon.

---

---

Yggdrasil
December 21, 2016
15:49 UTC

"I hate having to talk that way," Skuld continued after passing through the portal from Niflheim. "It's so old-fashioned! But Hel insists, and it's her realm." She let go of Rob and Hyoga.

Rob laughed. "And you're always at the cutting edge, aren't you, milady Skuld?" Then he turned to Skogul. "It was my wyrd, eh? I saw what you did there."

Skogul shrugged her shoulders. "Calling upon Wyrd - Urðr - Urd couldn't hurt."

"And I did hear your call." Urd smiled as she very carefully re-packed some fragile alchemical flasks into a very-strongly-bound box. "Do the two of you understand what Garm commanded of you?"

"I'm not sure, milady Urd."

Belldandy smiled. "Then I will give you the same tasks that Garm did. Rob, you must not sit by when a wrong is to be righted, when an innocent needs help, when injustice is ascending over justice. You must take action - and that action needs to be more than merely 'liking' a post on Facebook."

"I accept that burden gladly, milady Belldandy. And I don't even have a Facebook account."

She smiled. "And your first call to action is on behalf of your companion. Hyoga, you need to accept that, despite your celestial abilities, you are no longer simply a concentration of other people's metahuman powers given human form; you are a human, with a human need for companionship and family."

Hyoga put her arm around Rob's waist. "And I know without knowing how I know that Rob will be a part of that family."

Belldandy smiled. "And you, Rob, need to not only accept that Hyoga is important to you, but you must also tell other people that she is important to you - before the day is out."

"Of course." He smiled while replying. "I've always thought that Hyoga is somebody important; she's just a bit closer than that now. We need to figure out who we're going to tell first, though. After we tell our apartment-mates, of course."

"And then San Antonio," Hyoga added.

Rob looked puzzled. "San ... Antonio? Is there a residence there?"

And with that question, plus a Meaningful Look from Belldandy that Rob couldn't see, Hyoga realized that they had not reassembled the well at Hvergelmir to be exactly the same as it was before Urd had quiesced reality. She wondered how many other changes they had made, but all she said was, "I'm sorry; it's been a long day. I should have said San Francisco."

Rob grinned. "Yes, Gomez would probably take the entire account in stride, wouldn't he? Tell him first, and let him build up our confidence before telling the others."

Then Hyoga asked a question to distract Rob from her unknowing blunder. "What if somebody objects to the two of us being together?"

Rob reached for her hand and held it reassuringly. "That's their problem. Even if it was Mii and Ami who were the ones to object. The two of us have literally been to the Gates of Hel together and lived to tell the tale, and you've been reborn in the process. As far as I'm concerned, you already are a part of my family, Hyoga." Rob drew her into an embrace. "We'll need to see how you fit into our family, but you'll have a place of some sort there."

Skuld turned away. "Tell me when they're gone, okay?"

But before Urd and Belldandy sent Rob and Hyoga home, Belldandy quietly slid an envelope into Hyoga's pocket - a pocket that had not existed before she did so.

---

Blossom Apartments, Ottawa, ON, Canada
December 21, 2016
15:52 UTC (10:52am ET)


"I could sleep the entire day away," Rob said as he fell into his own bed from the portal from Yggdrasil.

"So could I," replied Hyoga, immediately beside him. "But I don't want to sleep." She made no move to get out of bed.

"Hyoga... We really shouldn't."

"I know. Even if it would be the best Christmas present ever." She sat up in bed. "Remember, I'm human now; what the Book of Enoch says about that doesn't apply any more, if that is what I feel for you. Wait, did you promise Mii that she would be the first of the women here to share your bed that way?"

Rob thought carefully for a long moment. "No. What I promised her was that I would share her bed the day after her eighteenth birthday, and I made the same promise to Ami. What I'm thinking is that the two of us shouldn't do anything until after my fiancées know."

"And approve. You're right, of course."

"C'mon, sleepyhead. Out of bed."

"Are you talking to me or to yourself?"

"Both of us. We have to tell everyone else that you're part of my family now, remember?"

"And you have a new ability to explore."

Rob grinned. "I think we both do. Come on, let's go get some lunch."

---

Blossom Apartments, Ottawa, ON, Canada
December 21, 2016
1:07pm ET


Alone in her apartment (which wasn't where she remembered it being yesterday), Hyoga opened the letter that Belldandy had given her without Rob's knowledge.

"My dearest Hyoga,

(For a moment, she wondered who the "dear Hyoga" and "dearer Hyoga" were, that made her the "dearest Hyoga".)

"I know that this will be hard for you, but you will need to live with the fact that you are one of the few beings who remember how the universe existed before you and Mr. Donaldson repaired Hvergelmir. Most things remain the same, but there are a few people who we approached in this version of reality that we did not approach in the reality of your birth, and vice versa.

"Here are the most important changes that people will expect you to know. Firstly, the Juraians are living in Vancouver, in their own home and under the very light guidance of a liaison named Garnett Iwasaki; there is not yet a residence in San Antonio. Secondly, my husband and his comrades from Whirlwind are living in New Brunswick, along with your friends in Hokago Tea Time. Thirdly, you are already friends with Hokago Tea Time. Fourthly, the Pensacola residence is being managed by Harley Waters. Fifthly, the Halloween Party was held in Addams Mansion, and that is where Yui Hirasawa and Shinji Ikari first met. Sixthly, the TSAB girls are living in Philadelphia with Admiral Harlaown. Seventhly, because of her ties to the Time Gates, Ms. Meioh also has scattered memories of the previous version of reality and would appreciate being able to speak with somebody about them. I know that this will mean that you will be unable to accompany Mii and Ami on their trip to Windsor next week.

"There are more changes, but I will leave them for you to discover."

(Hyoga smiled at that comment; she had already noticed that there was another floor to the building where she lived.)

"Please be assured and remember that you can call on us in a time of great emergency.

"Belldandy"

As the letter disappeared into motes of light, Hyoga wondered why Mii and Ami would be going to Windsor next week.

[robkelk]

So... Our new building manager in Florida, the politically conservative but not rabidly so Harley Waters.

With the name "Harley", he's going to have a definite opinion about motorcycles. And in Florida he can ride year-round, hurricanes notwithstanding. But which opinion does he have? Love 'em, hate 'em, don't show him anything that wasn't made in the USA, give him a Ducati instead of an Indian, something else altogether?

And if he is a biker, does he have the stereotypical build and beard?

[Dartz]

Somebody with a name like Harley is going to hate Harley Davidsons because they likely had one of those parents who loved the damned things.


Might I recommend a Moto Guzzi? They're a little unique, a little weird and Italian without being a Ducati. I like the style.

[robkelk]

And the stereotypical build and beard go with the HDs, at least around here.

Don't know whether I can fake a Moto Guzzi with the bikes I have for Daz Studio, though. Maybe a full-custom build, in-universe from Whirlwind? Something tuned to Keiichi Morisato's specifications would be a racer, not a runabout.

[Bob Schroeck]

Hm. This might make Pensacola a destination for an excursion by the Bakuon!! girls. Call it two weeks, maybe taking the old Route 9 instead of interstate 95 for the off-the-beaten path scenic route. Might be a good story in there. Maybe they're part of a combined road test/delivery run for his bike...

Heh. Anyone want to ship Harley and Raimu (AKA "Stig-sempai")? <grin>

[robkelk]

The more important question here is "How many of the Children are going to want to become bikers?"

EDIT: Just added to Harley's wiki page:

He used to ride a Moto Guzzi - you can't get much farther away from Harleys unless you get a custom bike, but he couldn't afford a custom bike. However, he took his "signing bonus" in the form of a Whirlwind special, which was delivered in mid-March 2017.

So... road trip!

[Bob Schroeck]

The more important question here is "How many of the Children are going to want to become bikers?"

Well, I've already added it to Rei Ayanami's page. I've decided that for reasons she gets along well with Harley and sort of catches motorcycle-interest from him. I don't see Shinji really wanting to. Asuka.... reply hazy; ask again later.

Meanwhile, in other news, I just realized we have someone better suited to teaching swordplay than Gomez Addams: Katsuhito Masaki, who canonically trains Tenchi and has something of a small dojo. (And there was a great crossover fic long ago -- Kakumei Muyo -- that leads me to suggest that Utena might go to him to expand her skills, too.)

EDIT: How's this? Asuka wants to try motorcycling, but Rei got there first, and she can't bear to look like she's playing catch-up or follow-the-leader to "Wonder Girl" so her ego requires her to pretend motorcycles are uninteresting or worse.