All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXVI

[Bob Schroeck]

And I just dropped him a warning. Let's see how he reacts.

[GethN7]

Well, I think this is progress. The troper we warned to be chill and be constructive is doing just that, check this edit in Moderation (if you're an admin), it actually fleshes out the ED page and provides examples of what it does more:

https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?tit...odid=17421

[Umbire]

So much of my time lately's been spent catching up on a Link to the Past randomizer tourney - one such video linked here - and I was wondering, with how plentiful randomizers are, would they warrant a trope page of their own? At the least they're a specific type of Challenge Run that deserves coverage, though they just as often see use for "casual" play.

It might be a good subtrope for Self-Imposed Challenge.

Here's a rough draft if you're interested in contributing by some off chance - I'm working more on polishing my current candidates the best I can to make room for this both focus and Workshop-wise.

[Umbire]

Oh whoops - turns out another semi-consistent way to provoke Miraheze into barfing up 504s is to try and search a phrase, any phrase, that you placed in quotes.

[robkelk]

...

And I'm not sure we quite have the proper categories for that.  Of course I was never really happy with "Web Original" and "New Media" either.  I mean, it's been 400 years and we still have the "novel", and here we are doing the same thing again.

...

Here you go - one proposal.

EDIT: To be consistent, I suppose we should rename "The New Tens" and "The New Twenties" as well. Preferably before we end up calling the 2110s "The Newer Tens", the 2210s the "Even-Newer Tens", and so on.

[Labster]

The Pandemic Twenties and uh... the Gay Tens?

Because the hook that was used to generate HideSection has been deprecated, I finally got around to rewriting it.  Of course, it wasn't deprecated in favor of a new hook, it's just going away, so I was able to replicate that with a mess of javascript.  On the up-side, it should now work better if you want a div to span multiple headers (until you start hiding sections... yeah there's only so far I'm willing to go).  In any case let me know there's some feature you want here.

And incidentally, when I said to look at Category:Website, what I really wondered is if we really need all the conservative Wikipedia clones?  The page on eBay is kind of weird too but it's mostly a trope page.  And also some things need split off like Steam and Uplay as content distributors.  Maybe a category like "Online Publisher"?  "Web Store"?

[Umbire]

The Pandemic Twenties and uh... the Gay Tens?

Because the hook that was used to generate HideSection has been deprecated, I finally got around to rewriting it.  Of course, it wasn't deprecated in favor of a new hook, it's just going away, so I was able to replicate that with a mess of javascript.  On the up-side, it should now work better if you want a div to span multiple headers (until you start hiding sections... yeah there's only so far I'm willing to go).  In any case let me know there's some feature you want here.

And incidentally, when I said to look at Category:Website, what I really wondered is if we really need all the conservative Wikipedia clones?  The page on eBay is kind of weird too but it's mostly a trope page.  And also some things need split off like Steam and Uplay as content distributors.  Maybe a category like "Online Publisher"?  "Web Store"?

If it exists, y'all trope it I guess - "No Such Thing As Notability" after all.

As to why they got so much disproportionate focus, I'd wager that was an artifact of how things were done after the fork, but before Miraheze. I've noticed artifacts of a conservative bias (a less kind interpretation would be "reactionary") all over the site.

Far as Steam + UPlay, I'd certainly be in favor of Web Store for both; the publishers for those are Valve and Ubisoft respectively.

[robkelk]

We're letting the Moderation queue get big again.

I wish I had time to do something about the backlog.

[Umbire]

Unrelated: ...well this ain't great news.

I'm starting to think we should reach out and step up archival efforts and maybe find a way to pull some of the bigger Fandom projects off to other wiki farms, if not Miraheze specifically (especially considering the problems you all've had with it lately).

[Umbire]

For those who haven't encountered it yet, Miraheze is dealing with an outage at the moment.

[GethN7]

The Pandemic Twenties and uh... the Gay Tens?

Because the hook that was used to generate HideSection has been deprecated, I finally got around to rewriting it.  Of course, it wasn't deprecated in favor of a new hook, it's just going away, so I was able to replicate that with a mess of javascript.  On the up-side, it should now work better if you want a div to span multiple headers (until you start hiding sections... yeah there's only so far I'm willing to go).  In any case let me know there's some feature you want here.

And incidentally, when I said to look at Category:Website, what I really wondered is if we really need all the conservative Wikipedia clones?  The page on eBay is kind of weird too but it's mostly a trope page.  And also some things need split off like Steam and Uplay as content distributors.  Maybe a category like "Online Publisher"?  "Web Store"?

If it exists, y'all trope it I guess - "No Such Thing As Notability" after all.

As to why they got so much disproportionate focus, I'd wager that was an artifact of how things were done after the fork, but before Miraheze. I've noticed artifacts of a conservative bias (a less kind interpretation would be "reactionary") all over the site.

Far as Steam + UPlay, I'd certainly be in favor of Web Store for both; the publishers for those are Valve and Ubisoft respectively.

As for Wikis, if they have a bias of any kind, I say we keep the articles, and mention their biases, but just strip out any language that goes beyond objective reporting of said bias (as in, no condemnation of it nor endorsement). Frankly, it would be nigh impossible to mention RationalWiki in any way without commenting on their generally liberal bias for example, which I would in a detached manner, but I see no reason to not keep them so long as we can keep to a "we report, you decide" rule on the subject of bias. I would also say we should enforce a strict OPOV (Objective Point of View) for all pages on sites of any sort of politically or socially charged bent, and only toss them if they fall completely outside our topic scope.

I also agree we could spin off Steam/Uplay/etc. into a Web Store category.

[Umbire]

The Pandemic Twenties and uh... the Gay Tens?

Because the hook that was used to generate HideSection has been deprecated, I finally got around to rewriting it.  Of course, it wasn't deprecated in favor of a new hook, it's just going away, so I was able to replicate that with a mess of javascript.  On the up-side, it should now work better if you want a div to span multiple headers (until you start hiding sections... yeah there's only so far I'm willing to go).  In any case let me know there's some feature you want here.

And incidentally, when I said to look at Category:Website, what I really wondered is if we really need all the conservative Wikipedia clones?  The page on eBay is kind of weird too but it's mostly a trope page.  And also some things need split off like Steam and Uplay as content distributors.  Maybe a category like "Online Publisher"?  "Web Store"?

If it exists, y'all trope it I guess - "No Such Thing As Notability" after all.

As to why they got so much disproportionate focus, I'd wager that was an artifact of how things were done after the fork, but before Miraheze. I've noticed artifacts of a conservative bias (a less kind interpretation would be "reactionary") all over the site.

Far as Steam + UPlay, I'd certainly be in favor of Web Store for both; the publishers for those are Valve and Ubisoft respectively.

As for Wikis, if they have a bias of any kind, I say we keep the articles, and mention their biases, but just strip out any language that goes beyond objective reporting of said bias (as in, no condemnation of it nor endorsement). Frankly, it would be nigh impossible to mention RationalWiki in any way without commenting on their generally liberal bias for example, which I would in a detached manner, but I see no reason to not keep them so long as we can keep to a "we report, you decide" rule on the subject of bias. I would also say we should enforce a strict OPOV (Objective Point of View) for all pages on sites of any sort of politically or socially charged bent, and only toss them if they fall completely outside our topic scope.

I also agree we could spin off Steam/Uplay/etc. into a Web Store category.

Insofar as we flawed humans can remain 'objective' I agree. :B

[robkelk]

As for Wikis, if they have a bias of any kind, I say we keep the articles, and mention their biases, but just strip out any language that goes beyond objective reporting of said bias (as in, no condemnation of it nor endorsement). Frankly, it would be nigh impossible to mention RationalWiki in any way without commenting on their generally liberal bias for example, which I would in a detached manner, but I see no reason to not keep them so long as we can keep to a "we report, you decide" rule on the subject of bias. I would also say we should enforce a strict OPOV (Objective Point of View) for all pages on sites of any sort of politically or socially charged bent, and only toss them if they fall completely outside our topic scope.

I also agree we could spin off Steam/Uplay/etc. into a Web Store category.

Insofar as we flawed humans can remain 'objective' I agree. :B

Likewise. If we don't agree on what's centrist, then people are going to complain that we call sites right-wing or left-wing when they aren't.

(For example, I find myself needing to shift all bias assessments one category to the right at mediabiasfactcheck.com, because they use an American definition of "centrist". At least they admit it so we can react accordingly.)

[Umbire]

Likewise. If we don't agree on what's centrist, then people are going to complain that we call sites right-wing or left-wing when they aren't.

(For example, I find myself needing to shift all bias assessments one category to the right at mediabiasfactcheck.com, because they use an American definition of "centrist". At least they admit it so we can react accordingly.)

Honestly, I'm almost tempted to say "who cares" because I've been deluged with pro-Herschel Walker ads claiming that liberals have been defunding the police - which 1) goes to show how little if ever they cared about Dems reaching across the aisle and 2) is naturally the opposite of what Dems have actually done by and large. (Would that they were so ballsy - but that's another thread entirely :B)

Point being, there's gonna be devoted wing-"nuts" American and otherwise who'll call a bullzoder a steamroller no matter what you do.

[Bob Schroeck]

We're letting the Moderation queue get big again.

I wish I had time to do something about the backlog.

I've been under the weather for the last few days, and the actual weather around here since the first hasn't helped. (Hurricane Ian leftovers, lingering and dumping rain. I was already feeling yuck, it just added to it.) I'll see what I can do before and after the TNB meeting tonight.

EDIT: To help with that, can we please pick back up on Geth's proposal that we give BioMaster automod/autopatrolled? It's been a month since he made the recommendation, and while I tried to poke the thread about it at least once, nothing's happened. I voted yes, I presume Geth's will be a yes... does anyone else care to vote either way?

[robkelk]

We're letting the Moderation queue get big again.

I wish I had time to do something about the backlog.

I've been under the weather for the last few days, and the actual weather around here since the first hasn't helped.  (Hurricane Ian leftovers, lingering and dumping rain.  I was already feeling yuck, it just added to it.)  I'll see what I can do before and after the TNB meeting tonight.

EDIT:  To help with that, can we please pick back up on Geth's proposal that we give BioMaster automod/autopatrolled?  It's been a month since he made the recommendation, and while I tried to poke the thread about it at least once, nothing's happened.  I voted yes, I presume Geth's will be a yes... does anyone else care to vote either way?

I'll give a third "yes" vote for BioMaster getting autopatrolled.

[robkelk]

In case folks haven't seen this yet: QuestionableSanity has a proposal for a significant change to the look-and-feel of all trope pages.

[Bob Schroeck]

We're letting the Moderation queue get big again.

I wish I had time to do something about the backlog.

I've been under the weather for the last few days, and the actual weather around here since the first hasn't helped.  (Hurricane Ian leftovers, lingering and dumping rain.  I was already feeling yuck, it just added to it.)  I'll see what I can do before and after the TNB meeting tonight.

EDIT:  To help with that, can we please pick back up on Geth's proposal that we give BioMaster automod/autopatrolled?  It's been a month since he made the recommendation, and while I tried to poke the thread about it at least once, nothing's happened.  I voted yes, I presume Geth's will be a yes... does anyone else care to vote either way?

I'll give a third "yes" vote for BioMaster getting autopatrolled.

That's three "yes" votes... any against?

[Umbire]

We're letting the Moderation queue get big again.

I wish I had time to do something about the backlog.

I've been under the weather for the last few days, and the actual weather around here since the first hasn't helped.  (Hurricane Ian leftovers, lingering and dumping rain.  I was already feeling yuck, it just added to it.)  I'll see what I can do before and after the TNB meeting tonight.

EDIT:  To help with that, can we please pick back up on Geth's proposal that we give BioMaster automod/autopatrolled?  It's been a month since he made the recommendation, and while I tried to poke the thread about it at least once, nothing's happened.  I voted yes, I presume Geth's will be a yes... does anyone else care to vote either way?

I'll give a third "yes" vote for BioMaster getting autopatrolled.

That's three "yes" votes... any against?

No complaints here.

[robkelk]

Umbrie brings up a good point about ED here, and I don't know how to reply... Mainly because I don't know enough about UK law.

If this is correct, does saying it put the wiki at risk at all? I've been lead to believe that "it's true" is not a defence in UK libel law.

[GethN7]

Umbrie brings up a good point about ED here, and I don't know how to reply... Mainly because I don't know enough about UK law.

If this is correct, does saying it put the wiki at risk at all? I've been lead to believe that "it's true" is not a defence in UK libel law.

I posted a reply that addresses that legal issue, and under my own knowledge of UK law, strictly as a layman, it would indeed be possible to avoid falling afoul of that under the condition we cite nothing ourselves from our coverage that, under UK law, would count as libelous or defamatory (such as specific accusations against real-world parties without evidence or reliable citation). As for the other issues my latest reply examines on what grounds we can all agree on and what seems to be contentious.

Again, my legal analysis is based strictly on my knowledge as a layman, so please take that in mind.

[robkelk]

Just had to login again. (Funny how I have to login to ATT separately from the rest of Miraheze. Maybe that's because ATT had its own domain name.)

[Labster]

Yeah, I was just told that you don't have to do it, and it must be my cookie settings that are making me login twice. I honestly don't believe them. Has anyone else had to login to miraheze.org separately from allthetropes.org? (They also tell me one login works for all wikimedia sites, and I need to log into those individually too.)

Anyway, uh, we are not the Big Fish that needs to worry about linking to ED. God, UK has shitty copyright law and free speech rules. It's probably even unconstitutional every third Thursday of the month. The UK has a generally a good history of allowing parody, though they also have a history of the Star Chamber. If it's about removing a link some day, I say we let the MH Stewards do it if it causes problems.

[Bob Schroeck]

About ten, fifteen minutes ago, the wiki crashed. Trying to get any page right now gets something like this:

MediaWiki internal error.

Original exception: [a9cf752a7eed0d50abf26f2a] 2022-10-09 18:25:41: Fatal exception of type "MWException"

Exception caught inside exception handler.

Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.

EDIT: Looks like it might be all of Miraheze. Meta returns a similar error when I try to visit the Stewards noticeboard.

[GethN7]

About ten, fifteen minutes ago, the wiki crashed.  Trying to get any page right now gets something like this:

MediaWiki internal error.

Original exception: [a9cf752a7eed0d50abf26f2a] 2022-10-09 18:25:41: Fatal exception of type "MWException"

Exception caught inside exception handler.

Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.

EDIT:  Looks like it might be all of Miraheze.  Meta returns a similar error when I try to visit the Stewards noticeboard.

That's a generic error that basically means "some database stuff is messed up and needs time to be reconstituted". Easily fixed on the server end by either giving the server time to update it's own records or forcing a record refresh to clear the issue.