All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXVII

[robkelk]

Previous thread is previous

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Geth, I'm still finding pages that haven't been reverted from when gethbot replaced [[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]] at the start of the category list with  [[Category:{{subst:PAGENAME}}]] at the end of the category list.

I thought you said that you were going to fix that...

If you can give me a list of pages to fix, I can bot run that ASAP.

I'd rather not run that blind though, so a discrete number of pages (as opposed to leaving a bot on for days to scan our massive database) would be ideal.


Bob, we need new thread, this one is at it's limit.

I don't have a list. I'll continue to repair the damage that your bot run did as I find it.

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We have another new account to keep an eye on: ^Charlotte9^

The troper's first edit in the Moderation queue is to remove the page image from "Uke". No explanation why. And there's nothing in the page image that would make it a violation of Miraheze's Terms of Service.

EDIT: Edit rejected and explanation given. We'll see whether the editor decides to engage us.

[Umbire]

Merry Christmas, all.

Setting out some MWNSP notices on a bunch of Fire Emblem pages that're overdue for a split, but also wondering how to handle the various timelines they represent as well - think that might be something for an analysis subpage?

[robkelk]

I know next to nothing about video games. I'm willing to trust your judgment above my own in this matter.

(Not a useful reply, I know...)

[Umbire]

I know next to nothing about video games. I'm willing to trust your judgment above my own in this matter.

(Not a useful reply, I know...)

No worries, and any reply is useful! I'll probably bring it up formally on the talk page and ping some folks.

[robkelk]

Which trope am I looking for?

The stock phrase (which is not listed under Stock Phrases) is in the form "'Mr. Smith' is my father. Call me John."

It isn't "First-Name Basis". It isn't linked from "They Call Me Mister Tibbs". what am I looking for?

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, I know have that one somewhere. And after looking.... yes, that's the second variant of "They Call Me Mister Tibbs":

Character A assumes too much formality with Character B, only to be given a gentle alternative: "Please. Doctor Von Trapp is my father. Call me Biff."

The link in the passage suggests that it may also qualify as "Don't Call Me 'Sir'".

[robkelk]

Thanks, Bob. From context, "Don't Call Me "Sir"!" appears to be the trope I wanted.

[robkelk]

I know this is a controversial question... so asking it here first to get mod consensus before asking it on the wiki itself. (And if I can't get mod consensus, then should I be thinking about asking it on the wiki at all?)

On the page Proper Lady, does the entry for the Virgin Mary belong under Real Life (where it is now) or under Oral Tradition, Folklore, Myths and Legends (where I usually put referenes to The Bible)?

[GethN7]

I know this is a controversial question... so asking it here first to get mod consensus before asking it on the wiki itself. (And if I can't get mod consensus, then should I be thinking about asking it on the wiki at all?)

On the page Proper Lady, does the entry for the Virgin Mary belong under Real Life (where it is now) or under Oral Tradition, Folklore, Myths and Legends (where I usually put referenes to The Bible)?

I'm Christian, but that said, I favor the latter option myself, if only for consistency with everything else. Besides, not everyone subscribes to the Christian faith, and to keep controversy to a minimum, the latter is definitely the saner option.

Also, you said remind you of this when the new year started, might wish to review it:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:X8342qrn3cee0404

[robkelk]

Thanks, Geth, on both counts.

[GethN7]

I just want to state, for the record, I agree with Umbire on this:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:X9yot0dupc9pecnf

As many of you know, my issues with TV Tropes are and remain legion, and All The Tropes is not perfect, but it's like a spring compared to their sewer in regards to my complaints.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with Umbire we can rise above them while still making our criticisms of them reasonable, disspassionate, and even if we cannot abandon our private resentments, I believe, if only to act as mature as we claim, we should avoid letting them be public.

Ergo, I request of my fellow admins that we tone down the venom. We can still criticize, I'm all for that, but let's avoid anything in said critique that crosses the line from dispassionate commentary on their failings and crosses over into pettiness, vindictiveness, or just outright venom.

[Bob Schroeck]

I'm afraid I'm responsible for a lot of the venom. I hold grudges; I clasp them close to my heart and treasure them, nursing them and keeping them alive for decades.

[Umbire]

I've brought it up quite a few times before, but I genuinely think it's ultimately to the detriment of this fork's reputation.

I've been thinking about it on and off, but especially more so after that whole deal with Max, and I personally think we deserve a far better caliber of audience than "people with grudges against TVTropes", especially when disliking the place is about the lowest bar in the world at this point: A lot of people are currently sick of the anti-intellectual approaches to media inspired by shit like pre-Second Incident TVT, various Caustic Critic-Aspirants, and too-online media junkies. ("Umbire, why did you repeat the same thing exactly thrice?")

Beyond that, it makes infinitely less than zero sense to continue lobbing barbs from my perspective - speaking in the sense of recent editors on that article, rather than referring to admins specifically since you've generally been working on that yourselves (which I commend) - when we've had to instill restrictions of our own regarding one-handed editing, drive-by anonymous weirdos, anti-spam measures and so on. All of those are reasonable, but if they are, then it's not very hard to see reason in some of TVT's own actions and, at barest minimum, write up something on them that isn't 2/3rd complaining about a pair of admins of whom at least one isn't even on the site anymore (that I'm aware of, so don't quote me on it).

[Umbire]

I just want to state, for the record, I agree with Umbire on this:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:X9yot0dupc9pecnf

As many of you know, my issues with TV Tropes are and remain legion, and All The Tropes is not perfect, but it's like a spring compared to their sewer in regards to my complaints.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with Umbire we can rise above them while still making our criticisms of them reasonable, disspassionate, and even if we cannot abandon our private resentments, I believe, if only to act as mature as we claim, we should avoid letting them be public.

Ergo, I request of my fellow admins that we tone down the venom. We can still criticize, I'm all for that, but let's avoid anything in said critique that crosses the line from dispassionate commentary on their failings and crosses over into pettiness, vindictiveness, or just outright venom.

And right on cue is the Horny one with a response that frankly reads as reactionary in its haste to cast me as pro-censorship for calling out recent edits (including his I'll freely admit) on their sloppiness.

[robkelk]

Umbrie, as I just said in that thread, I support your desire to do this cleanup.

I cannot help, because I never had an account on TV Tropes and thus only have secondhand information about the current or previous state of affairs there. So unless you feel a need for a proofreader, there's nothing that I can contribute to this project.

[Umbire]

I mean definitely proofread my shit, because I tend to edit while sleepy or distracted and make some embarrassing fucking mistakes.

[Umbire]

I'm afraid I'm responsible for a lot of the venom.  I hold grudges; I clasp them close to my heart and treasure them, nursing them and keeping them alive for decades.

I said what I said in the post following this to say I don't hold it against you at all, Bob - but the work that needs to be done is long overdue, and on top of wanting general assistance with it, I also want you to hold me to the facts where possible, particularly providing verification/citations/what-have-you for the administrative overstepping that I didn't directly witness.

[Umbire]

And there we go - it's still pretty anemic compared to what it should be but otherwise, it's vastly improved from its previous state, and that much closer to passing muster as a "neutral" article. I've a lot more to do for my part in this, currently - poring through the forum I linked in the talk page discussion, for example.

Also Bob, check your PMs on here when you have the chance.

[Umbire]

On that note... another TVT mod appears to have recently been in hot water, for apparently endorsing Holocaust denial and trying to split too many hairs regarding it.

The relevance beyond comments about particular TV Tropes mods is that it's caused me to look at the StoneToss page we have and go "oh right, this reads like a complete hack job". I'll be posting on that talk page in somewhat more detail shortly.

[GethN7]

On that note... another TVT mod appears to have recently been in hot water, for apparently endorsing Holocaust denial and trying to split too many hairs regarding it.

The relevance beyond comments about particular TV Tropes mods is that it's caused me to look at the StoneToss page we have and go "oh right, this reads like a complete hack job". I'll be posting on that talk page in somewhat more detail shortly.

I'm the one responsible for the Stonetoss page. Admittedly, it is a bit anemic and needs fleshing out. That said, I'd like to point out I'm no partisan, I'm fine with it being politically altered if I have accidentally given it too much endorsement and/or venom. Just be clear, I did contact the creator for use of one of their images for the page, which they gave explicit permission to use in full, but that by no means binds me to be prejudical towards their interests if the objective fact does not reflect well on them.

That said, one of the reasons I established a page on it to begin with was because I believe calling it outright "hate speech" was going a bit too far. I've read actual neo-Nazi tracts before (I even sporked a couple on my blog for fun), and I readily concede Stonetoss does lean into, if not totally Holocaust denial, they do tend towards sympathy for it to some degree. That said, given the rather trollish tone of much of his work and social media posting, there is some degree of argument this could be to just be offensive in the name of troll humor. Whatever the degree of truth there is to the claims either way, I just hope we can have a page that states the facts as they are and lets the glory or vileness speak for itself without us editorializing.

One last thing that is very important: I will plant my feet in the ground and steadfastly resist ANYTHING added that cannot be legally proven. I removed information from the page about Stonetoss' alleged real name because we have no proof. I'd rather ATT die than have us hit by libel suits. Umbire, I readily concede we need to flesh the page out and I we definitely need to point out where the author's views decidedly lean. At the same time, let's make sure your bias does not leak into anything either, the information I removed could have gotten us sued without reliable citation, and even Wikipedia wasn't willing to go that far.

[robkelk]

<sigh> Somebody's gone and locked the database without telling anyone.

EDIT: 20 minutes and it's still locked, with no explanation why. Phabricator ticket entered

[robkelk]

It's unlocked. Still waiting to learn why.

[Umbire]

It's unlocked. Still waiting to learn why.

Any update?

[Bob Schroeck]

It's unlocked. Still waiting to learn why.

Any update?

Yes. According to the ticket,

This is fixed. This was due to mysql being restarted because of a OOM and the read_only mode forgotten to be set to 0 after start up.

So, not a symptom of something far more serious.

[GethN7]

It's unlocked. Still waiting to learn why.

Any update?

Yes.  According to the ticket,

This is fixed. This was due to mysql being restarted because of a OOM and the read_only mode forgotten to be set to 0 after start up.

So, not a symptom of something far more serious.

To further translate to English, that response is that MySQL (the database backend) ran out of memory during a script call, and when they rebooted it to flush the bugged up call (as MySQL can hang with a memory leak on rare occasion), they forgot to make sure the database flag was set to 0 for read-only mode (meaning off, on is set for when they are debugging by preventing changes to the tables to discover bad values, meaning it would be set to 1 then for "on")

In short, database backend snafu, nothing dire.