All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XXVII

[GethN7]

Does this edit make its page biased?

EDIT: And this edit, which does not match its edit summary.

I've long since gotten over any beef with them years ago, and I'll admit, while it does look biased, it's not inaccurate. Maybe needs some vitriol toned down, but none of it is an outright lie.

[Bob Schroeck]

At some point around or shortly after these two posts I came across those edits through Recent Changes and made several iterations of my own edits to them. Some of kingtom's material I deleted outright -- "Hair Trigger Temper" was all about an individual, not the site, for instance -- and others got revised.

The second edit Rob pointed out, though, was a deliberate effort at bias -- replacing "a things are improving" comment with "everyone there is bastards" is a conscious effort to shift the tone from neutral-hopeful to angry-hateful. I've undone that change and am adding a little more of my own.

[Bob Schroeck]

And here's another, somewhat more subtle, attempt to throw a little bias into a page thanks to Agiletek, this time the one for former American president Jimmy Carter. I started college (just barely) during the Carter administration, and I remember he got more than a little mockery for his pronunciation of "nukular" -- but I do not remember Bush1 receiving "obsessive" mockery for the same pronunciation. Nor do I think complaining about the mistreatment of a later president really belongs on another president's page. He's also made a corresponding edit on the page for Bush1 where he once again complains about a double standard I don't recall ever existing.

The pair of them stink of standard right-wing "Mainstream Liberal Media" bashing. I am inclined to revert both, and perhaps add a more neutral entry for "It Is Pronounced "Tro-PAY"" to Bush's page, at least. Before I do, though, I wanted to run it by the other admins for their takes.

[GethN7]

And here's another, somewhat more subtle, attempt to throw a little bias into a page thanks to Agiletek, this time the one for former American president Jimmy Carter.  I started college (just barely) during the Carter administration, and I remember he got more than a little mockery for his pronunciation of "nukular" -- but I do not remember Bush1 receiving "obsessive" mockery for the same pronunciation.  Nor do I think complaining about the mistreatment of a later president really belongs on another president's page.  He's also made a corresponding edit on the page for Bush1 where he once again complains about a double standard I don't recall ever existing.

The pair of them stink of standard right-wing "Mainstream Liberal Media" bashing.  I am inclined to revert both, and perhaps add a more neutral entry for "It Is Pronounced "Tro-PAY"" to Bush's page, at least.  Before I do, though, I wanted to run it by the other admins for their takes.

I'd rewrite the tone to be more neutral. Accents do make certain words sound bizarre, but aside from pointing out the weirdness, giving someone grief for it is like hitting them for breathing.

[robkelk]

And here's another, somewhat more subtle, attempt to throw a little bias into a page thanks to Agiletek, this time the one for former American president Jimmy Carter.  I started college (just barely) during the Carter administration, and I remember he got more than a little mockery for his pronunciation of "nukular" -- but I do not remember Bush1 receiving "obsessive" mockery for the same pronunciation.  Nor do I think complaining about the mistreatment of a later president really belongs on another president's page.  He's also made a corresponding edit on the page for Bush1 where he once again complains about a double standard I don't recall ever existing.

The pair of them stink of standard right-wing "Mainstream Liberal Media" bashing.  I am inclined to revert both, and perhaps add a more neutral entry for "It Is Pronounced "Tro-PAY"" to Bush's page, at least.  Before I do, though, I wanted to run it by the other admins for their takes.

I'd rewrite the tone to be more neutral. Accents do make certain words sound bizarre, but aside from pointing out the weirdness, giving someone grief for it is like hitting them for breathing.

I've just asked him to explain his edits. The last thing we need is a lawsuit saying we're in violation of UK libel law (which is not the same as US libel law).

[Bob Schroeck]

Apologies, somehow I got confused and thought he was talking about Bush1 when he was actually talking about Bush2, who did get a lot of flak for being considerably dumber than his father. But his pronunciation of "nuclear" certainly wasn't the sole data point on which that was based.

[Bob Schroeck]

And for those not on the wiki today, Rob and I between us have addressed Agiletek's edits. And attitude.

[GethN7]

And for those not on the wiki today, Rob and I between us have addressed Agiletek's edits.  And attitude.

As did I. His caliver approach to potential legal liability was given an extensive dressing down, we cannot afford that.

[Bob Schroeck]

<sigh> The wiki database is locked for no apparent reason again. That's the third time in six weeks.

EDIT: I've piggybacked an "us, too" on someone else's Phabricator ticket for the same thing.

[Bob Schroeck]

And the wiki's now editable again.

[robkelk]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

[GethN7]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

Technical explanation in the simplest way possible:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Categories

This is just a list of all categories for EVERYTHING. This includes maintenance, categories included with imported content that is not trope/work-related, hidden utility ones, and lots of other trivia that is not entirely needed for us to look at all the time.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Index_Index

This, on the other hand, are the actual content categories, all the things that court as things the average reader will care about or have good reason to peruse. This is just groups all that "relevant to the average site reader and editor" content" together, while the former makes no distinctions between this and background stuff not of strict importance to the former.

[robkelk]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

Technical explanation in the simplest way possible:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Categories

This is just a list of all categories for EVERYTHING. This includes maintenance, categories included with imported content that is not trope/work-related, hidden utility ones, and lots of other trivia that is not entirely needed for us to look at all the time.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Index_Index

This, on the other hand, are the actual content categories, all the things that court as things the average reader will care about or have good reason to peruse. This is just groups all that "relevant to the average site reader and editor" content" together, while the former makes no distinctions between this and background stuff not of strict importance to the former.

That might be what it was intended to be, but it isn't what it's become over the years. Everything gets dumped into Category:Index Index because that's what's on the boilerplate, and nobody bothers to change it.

If that's what you want Index Index to be (and I don't see why, because with over 65 thousand entries it's far too large for any "average reader" to use), then you're going to have to clean it up.

[robkelk]

By the way, our page for "Undocumented Features" now has the various WORKTITLE/Fan Works categories. Just for the Source List, not the Shout-Outs.

[GethN7]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

Technical explanation in the simplest way possible:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Categories

This is just a list of all categories for EVERYTHING. This includes maintenance, categories included with imported content that is not trope/work-related, hidden utility ones, and lots of other trivia that is not entirely needed for us to look at all the time.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Index_Index

This, on the other hand, are the actual content categories, all the things that court as things the average reader will care about or have good reason to peruse. This is just groups all that "relevant to the average site reader and editor" content" together, while the former makes no distinctions between this and background stuff not of strict importance to the former.

That might be what it was intended to be, but it isn't what it's become over the years. Everything gets dumped into Category:Index Index because that's what's on the boilerplate, and nobody bothers to change it.

If that's what you want Index Index to be (and I don't see why, because with over 65 thousand entries it's far too large for any "average reader" to use), then you're going to have to clean it up.

The only content that should be in the Index Index is what is is in the main namespace. Everything else that is template, MediaWiki pages (barring certain policy pages that may have overlap), or otherwise not pertinent to the main namespace should be removed from the Index Index.

[robkelk]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

Technical explanation in the simplest way possible:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Categories

This is just a list of all categories for EVERYTHING. This includes maintenance, categories included with imported content that is not trope/work-related, hidden utility ones, and lots of other trivia that is not entirely needed for us to look at all the time.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Index_Index

This, on the other hand, are the actual content categories, all the things that court as things the average reader will care about or have good reason to peruse. This is just groups all that "relevant to the average site reader and editor" content" together, while the former makes no distinctions between this and background stuff not of strict importance to the former.

That might be what it was intended to be, but it isn't what it's become over the years. Everything gets dumped into Category:Index Index because that's what's on the boilerplate, and nobody bothers to change it.

If that's what you want Index Index to be (and I don't see why, because with over 65 thousand entries it's far too large for any "average reader" to use), then you're going to have to clean it up.

The only content that should be in the Index Index is what is is in the main namespace. Everything else that is template, MediaWiki pages (barring certain policy pages that may have overlap), or otherwise not pertinent to the main namespace should be removed from the Index Index.

Since you didn't complain when I said "you're going to have to clean it up", I assume your'e volunteering to clean it up.

[GethN7]

Still doing lots and lots and lots of cleanup on the wiki...

Somebody give me a convincing reason why I shouldn't simply redirect Category:Index Index to Special:Categories and let MediaWiki automation do at least that much of the cleanup work. I see no reason to manually replicate an automated list.

Technical explanation in the simplest way possible:

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Special:Categories

This is just a list of all categories for EVERYTHING. This includes maintenance, categories included with imported content that is not trope/work-related, hidden utility ones, and lots of other trivia that is not entirely needed for us to look at all the time.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Category:Index_Index

This, on the other hand, are the actual content categories, all the things that court as things the average reader will care about or have good reason to peruse. This is just groups all that "relevant to the average site reader and editor" content" together, while the former makes no distinctions between this and background stuff not of strict importance to the former.

That might be what it was intended to be, but it isn't what it's become over the years. Everything gets dumped into Category:Index Index because that's what's on the boilerplate, and nobody bothers to change it.

If that's what you want Index Index to be (and I don't see why, because with over 65 thousand entries it's far too large for any "average reader" to use), then you're going to have to clean it up.

The only content that should be in the Index Index is what is is in the main namespace. Everything else that is template, MediaWiki pages (barring certain policy pages that may have overlap), or otherwise not pertinent to the main namespace should be removed from the Index Index.

Since you didn't complain when I said "you're going to have to clean it up", I assume your'e volunteering to clean it up.

I can thumb through it and prune what doesn't belong. I expect we'll be able to prune a lot of duplicate categories this way.

I'm just finishing up a game review project, so I can have some time over the next few days to give this section a well deserved pruning. Also looks like we can clean up redirects with category pages, they aren't content per se and thus do not require one in the Index Index, though their pages are categorized in the Ambiguity Index, which does need and has a proper entry.

P.S. - Noticed that you (Rob) have been double checking my fanfic recs deletions and edits, glad you are doing so. I tried to check for stuff that still existed or was yeeted, but at the time my skill at keeping it all straight was less than now and I was juggling a ton of different tabs checking links, so a lot of stuff may have died that shouldn't have. If so, I'm falling on my sword for that.

In the mean time, over the next couple of days I'll be working on the Index Index cleanup and will definitely be paying more attention for that.

[robkelk]

P.S. - Noticed that you (Rob) have been double checking my fanfic recs deletions and edits, glad you are doing so. I tried to check for stuff that still existed or was yeeted, but at the time my skill at keeping it all straight was less than now and I was juggling a ton of different tabs checking links, so a lot of stuff may have died that shouldn't have. If so, I'm falling on my sword for that.

My current project is to make sure we have "WORKNAME/Fan Works" categories for the fan works pages that we have, and that means going through all of the fanfic recommendations pages. I'm catching some duplicate categories that way, too.

We probably have a lot of categories that we can get rid of...

[robkelk]

Looks like there's a bug somewhere in the software - this edit isn't showing up on the User page.

Is this something that's happening on other User pages?

[GethN7]

Looks like there's a bug somewhere in the software - this edit isn't showing up on the User page.

Is this something that's happening on other User pages?

That is normal due to SocialProfile, which replaces the stock user page with its own custom version.

Adding it to the Wiki user page option provided by the SocialProfile extension will fix that.

[robkelk]

Looks like there's a bug somewhere in the software - this edit isn't showing up on the User page.

Is this something that's happening on other User pages?

That is normal due to SocialProfile, which replaces the stock user page with its own custom version.

Adding it to the Wiki user page option provided by the SocialProfile extension will fix that.

Then we need to add it to the Wiki user page option provided by the SocialProfile extension. How do we do that?


(Or we could junk SocialProfile - I still don't understand what benefit, if any, it gives us. Given how little traffic there is on the Blog and Forum pages, it isn't as if people use ATT as a social space.)

[GethN7]

Looks like there's a bug somewhere in the software - this edit isn't showing up on the User page.

Is this something that's happening on other User pages?

That is normal due to SocialProfile, which replaces the stock user page with its own custom version.

Adding it to the Wiki user page option provided by the SocialProfile extension will fix that.

Then we need to add it to the Wiki user page option provided by the SocialProfile extension. How do we do that?


(Or we could junk SocialProfile - I still don't understand what benefit, if any, it gives us. Given how little traffic there is on the Blog and Forum pages, it isn't as if people use ATT as a social space.)

It provides a nice range of options, including private messaging. It's not just the Blog and Forum stuff. And it allows us to have user avatars.

[Bob Schroeck]

Could someone who's actually seen Thor: Love and Thunder (or someone who doesn't mind being spoiled for it) please review HLIAA14YOG's proposed edit for it? It's been waiting for a looksee for over a week now.

[GethN7]

Could someone who's actually seen Thor: Love and Thunder (or someone who doesn't mind being spoiled for it) please review HLIAA14YOG's proposed edit for it?  It's been waiting for a looksee for over a week now.

Done.

[Bob Schroeck]

Thank you!