2024 Election - Thread #1

[Dartz]

I can never understand how the United States all managed to get their elections so incredibly fucked up.

Here, the electoral roll is the same roll used for jury selection.
Non-citizen residents, Resident EU-Citizens, Resident British Citizens and Irish Citizens have different electoral rights. They know who you're allowed vote for - or if your allowed vote - when you go to the poll.
Irish Citizens abroad are not allowed vote - this is to keep Irish Americans from Making Ireland Great Again. The objective is to make sure Trump voters are not able to vote in the Presidential Election.
When you go to the poll, you need some form of ID. But it's almost materially impossible to not have any form of accepted ID for voting. Everything from Drivers License to your benefits card, student card, utility bill, etc....
You go to a specific location inside the polling station for your area - especially for dense urban areas.
There is a cop in the polling station who is watching.
Polling stations are in local primary schools - usually. They close for the day to facilitate.
You go to the person in the polling station and get your ballot - it's validated using a punch press to confirm its a real ballot, and your name is marked off the list as 'yes, this person voted'.
The quantity of ballots handed out is tallied.
Go to the booth - and what happens in there is between you and the ballot.
You vote for who you want, who you'll accept if who you want doesn't win, and who you'll grudgingly tolerate all the way down to the last few dregs who you never want anywhere the rings of power so you leave their box blank.
If you make a mistake - the poll attendant marks the ballot as spoiled and gives you a fresh one which is also validated.
Both the spoiled ballot, and the legitimate ballot go into the box so that the tally of 'Ballots out' matches 'Ballots in'
The boxes are all locked until they get to the counting centre
Ballots are hand tallied and counted.
Candidate are eliminated or elected as it is deemed impossible for them to be elected, or they reach the minimum quota of votes to be elected off transfered preference votes, *or* they run out of votes to count.
The maximum possible number of counts in any one constituency will be the Number of Candidates, minus the Number of seats. This leads to our American interns being confused by such items as 'The 17th Count' in the morning news.

Only recently have their been any attempts to impugn the integrity of this ossified process. Usually by the screeching rightists trying to apply the Trump playbook in a different country.

The government tried electronic voting once - spent millions to store the machines for a decade or more - and then promptly went back to paper and the drama of the counts.

It can sometimes take a week to get a result, but the result also rarely involves a judge, there's no opportunities for chads to dance to Danny Deever.

[Labster]

I can never understand how the United States all managed to get their elections so incredibly fucked up.


Irish Citizens abroad are not allowed vote - this is to keep Irish Americans from Making Ireland Great Again. The objective is to make sure Trump voters are not able to vote in the Presidential Election.
...
There is a cop in the polling station who is watching.

Oooh, is the cop there to interrogate people who look like illegals? What if they're just black, can they intimidate 'em too?  Remember America has a whole different set of baggage, and having police present at the polls would make a huge swath of the population feel unsafe here.  Only half of Americans feel confident in the police.

Meanwhile in America we literally let Americans in orbit vote.  Honestly Ireland seems like it has slightly conservative voting laws overall.  In America, it's like, well, imagine I compared the voting laws in Denmark, Italy, Ireland, and Hungary, and pretended it was all the same place.  It's a whole continent of different places and rules.  We have always thousands of soldiers deployed around the world.  There are some places in California where you might live a kilometer in elevation away from the nearest polling place, and if the snow has begun it might mean that from your town to the county elections office becomes a hundred mile drive via the nearest open mountain pass.

[classicdrogn]

There's also the issue of the number of votes to be counted - a quick search says the population of Ireland as of 2023 was estimated at 5.262 million. Just he cities of Chicago IL and Houston TXcombine to nearly equal that, and they're only the third and fourth largest in the US, following LA and NYC, which has over eight million on its own. Han counting that would take months, not weeks, and just looking at the 2020 debacle hand-counted districtsw were more open to dispute and IIRC found more errors on re-counts.

And as Labster said, there's also a significant part of the population who'd be worried about a police presence at polling places rather than relieved, if they didn't just leave on sight of a cruiser in the parking lot.

I do agree it would be a long chalk better if we'd kick out the Electoral Collage and go to a ranked voting system without splitting the popular vote up into regional blocks smaller than the area of responsibility for the office being voted for, though.

[robkelk]

So, the election was not called within three hours of the polls being closed.

I look forward to the GOP launching the investigations of voting fraud that they promised if that delay was to happen.

[classicdrogn]

And here I was, thinking I'd already dismissed childish daydreams like "hope."

[robkelk]

Just has a pessimistic thought, which is more likely than the GOP launching the voter-fraud investigations that they promised. ("Small but non-zero" is more likely than "zero".)

His Orangeness is 78 years old and lives in a country where the average life expectancy is 79. It's statistically possible -- roughly a coin-toss if one ignores the medical care that millionaires can buy -- that he might go to sleep and never wake up again before he's sworn in.

If that happens, who becomes President?

Until His Orangeness is sworn in, Biden is still President. Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 of the United States Constitution and the Twenty-fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution don't apply to his successor's running mate... yet. (Although Biden turns 82 on November 20, so if he goes to sleep and never wakes up again before his successor is sworn in, his VP gets to be President for a few weeks or days.)

[Labster]

That's actually an easy question. The election for President and Vice President has not happened yet. All that is happened is that we elected a slate of electors to the Electoral College from our state (well, along with Congressmembers). In the case of Candidate Existence Failure, those electors can vote for anyone they want (unless their particular state law says they can't (actually they still can though, they just might be penalized later (possibly it would go to the Supreme Court who would then pick the winner))). If the electors can't decide on a President by majority vote, the election then goes to the House of Representatives... but not the normal House. No, each state gets one vote, so all of California's 50 congressmen collectively have one vote, and all of Wyoming's one congressman has the same vote. And then they choose it.

Alternatively, Biden could resign today and let Harris be president for the remainder of the term.

Every once in a while I try to explain the Venetian Republic's election system for Doge as if it was really complicated, but having written that last paragraph I'm honestly not so sure.

[GethN7]

As you know, I was not an overly huge fan of both our choices, and whether Trump or Harris was the winner, well, I was prepared to deal with it either way.

That said, since I happen to have both Trump and Harris supporting friends, just my observation as to why most Trump supporters went with him. Overwhelmingly, most of their opinions boil down to "he can make the economy better". Some of the more liberal ones weren't entirely sanguine on his abortion stance (though more with his more hardliner Republican allies on that, Trump has always been a "leave it to the states" middle grounder), and some weren't too thrilled with how much of a boorish douche he can be, but most told me they gagged down their bile because they want gas and food to be more affordable, and did not believe Kamala had any ability to work on that or even cared at all in that regard.

To be fair, making food and other basic necessities more affordable was the same plank both Communists and Nazis have used to win over the common man, it's not exclusively a left or right argument, but I find it not surprising they voted on those grounds. Granted, I concede they may be willingly ignorant of the whole "trade liberty for security" argument, but to be fair, making the common man's purchasing power stronger is going to be a compelling position no matter what side of the political aisle you are on. Foreign policy was a big thing the Democrats focused on, and I argue that was a mistake in preventing Trump from gaining common man support. A hungry belly and thin wallets crowd is more going to care about domestic concerns.

I also saw, to my regret, some Democrats lashing out at the Latino vote for not being overwhelming in Kamala's favor, and frankly, that's a mistake. No matter which side of the aisle you are on, cursing those you want to win over next time is not a good idea and if the Democrats want to regain ground again, I would not burn bridges.

In Kamala's favor, I'll grant her generous leeway with her concession. While it came off more defiant than resigned, she was still willing to concede with far more grace than Trump did in 2020.

From what I can see, the Democrats have a serious problem with being really out of touch with the voters who were concerned about the economy, they'd do well to be more observant next go-round. As for the Republicans, they run the risk of being too arrogant and blowing the goodwill they engendered if they don't deliver what they promise to their supporters, and if Democrats want to regain ground, I'd watch what he does like a hawk and hammer at his weak spots if I were a Democrat.

Overall, I do want to say I urge calm regardless what side of the political aisle you are on, stay calm. The world did not end in 2016, it did not end in 2020, it will not end now.

[hazard]

Sure, the US voter may think that Trump is better for the economy than Harris... but history has shown that to be false, and that major growth in the economy happens during Democratic administrations, while Republican administrations tend to stall or outright shrink the economy.

[Disruptor]

A group who normally don't vote decided to vote this timae around.  The Amish people trhoughout the US in usnison voted for Trump.

[robkelk]

Sure, the US voter may think that Trump is better for the economy than Harris... but history has shown that to be false, and that major growth in the economy happens during Democratic administrations, while Republican administrations tend to stall or outright shrink the economy.

Yeah. The only way prices are going to come down is if the economy suffers from a bout of deflation, and that only happens during major recessions or depressions.

A group who normally don't vote decided to vote this timae around.  The Amish people trhoughout the US in usnison voted for Trump.

Do you have a cite for that, Disruptor? I'd like to read any article that claims any identifiable group votes monolithically so that I can understand the reasoning behind it.

[Jinx999]

Trump and Elon have openly said that they will do things that will trash the US economy, such as massive tariffs and gutting the government.

[Disruptor]

Sure, the US voter may think that Trump is better for the economy than Harris... but history has shown that to be false, and that major growth in the economy happens during Democratic administrations, while Republican administrations tend to stall or outright shrink the economy.

Yeah. The only way prices are going to come down is if the economy suffers from a bout of deflation, and that only happens during major recessions or depressions.

A group who normally don't vote decided to vote this timae around.  The Amish people trhoughout the US in usnison voted for Trump.

Do you have a cite for that, Disruptor? I'd like to read any article that claims any identifiable group votes monolithically so that I can understand the reasoning behind it.

https://www.audacy.com/wwjnewsradio/news...wing-state

One article.  I'm sure there are others

[robkelk]

A group who normally don't vote decided to vote this timae around.  The Amish people trhoughout the US in usnison voted for Trump.

Do you have a cite for that, Disruptor? I'd like to read any article that claims any identifiable group votes monolithically so that I can understand the reasoning behind it.

https://www.audacy.com/wwjnewsradio/news...wing-state

One article.  I'm sure there are others

That article doesn't say what you claimed. It's about a single community.

[classicdrogn]

There's a lot of room for "everything gets worse" before "the end of the world," but for the sake of my mental and physical health I'll skip another trip down that depression spiral.


Everything is prfect;y all right...

[Labster]

Overall, I do want to say I urge calm regardless what side of the political aisle you are on, stay calm. The world did not end in 2016, it did not end in 2020, it will not end now.

That's easy for you to say, when the world isn't literally on fire around you the days after the election.  And I do mean literally literally -- I have two air purifiers running at full blast and the house still smells like smoke.  The world is ending, slowly but surely, as we once again abandon our holy duty of stewardship of the land and its creatures, all sacrificed on the altar of economy and avarice.

At least I finally know, without a doubt, that more than half of my countrymen are evil.  And we're definitely gonna hit +3°C.  I'm not sure what to do with that knowledge.  Right now, it just makes me want to give up.

[GethN7]

Overall, I do want to say I urge calm regardless what side of the political aisle you are on, stay calm. The world did not end in 2016, it did not end in 2020, it will not end now.

That's easy for you to say, when the world isn't literally on fire around you the days after the election.  And I do mean literally literally -- I have two air purifiers running at full blast and the house still smells like smoke.  The world is ending, slowly but surely, as we once again abandon our holy duty of stewardship of the land and its creatures, all sacrificed on the altar of economy and avarice.

At least I finally know, without a doubt, that more than half of my countrymen are evil.  And we're definitely gonna hit +3°C.  I'm not sure what to do with that knowledge.  Right now, it just makes me want to give up.

First off, I hope the heat problems where you are abate, that sounds terrible. Second, as someone who was apathetic to either outcome, and someone who studies history, calling your political opponents evil is incredibly stupid. If they have committed grievous error, burning any bridge towards winning them back to your side is a bad idea.

Also, and this is the last I will address this topic, I want to throw on some water on the fire of panic here with a little history lesson.

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis only got to do what they wanted to Germany only after they seized the Reichstag Fire as an excuse and got the Enabling Act, which allowed them to rule by decree and ashcan any hope of democracy. It was with that Germany was condemned to fascist thrall. The very fact Democrats have, to this point, not done a January 6 is to their credit, and if they want to prevent an American Enabling Act, they'd be wise to not let a January 6 happen by their own hand, assuming the other side truly wants an excuse. 

The United States is far more fundamentally stable than Weimar Germany right now, and the fact you can even complain about the election without disappearing into the night and fog means you are not under a fascist boot YET. My advice, keep being sensible and make the other side make the mistake. Your time will come, just be smart and don't do something foolish in your upset lest your fears become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

With that, I'm noping out of this conversation. I was prepared to sleep just as soundly if Kamala won as I do now, and no, I do not believe people with different opinions who should be elected leaders are categorically evil. That was the same attitude that led the Nazis to murder the Jews, and I advise not repeating that mistake no matter how mad you are.

[hazard]

Your shitstirring cowardice and naivete are as encouraging as always, Geth.

The Trump and the Republicans have been quite open about how they want America's future political power distribution system to look like, and they don't need an Enabling Act of their own... because they just need to ensure that the elections are as free and fair as the elections in Russia, or the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Although they'll happily do away with the elections if they can, it's useless pageantry to them.

If they do need such a thing though... they just need an incident. They don't need to be honest about who was the cause of it.

[classicdrogn]

Indeed, falling for Comrade Trumpski's grift doesn't make someone evil, just stupid. If that was a crime everyone would be in the shit soon enough, [sarcasm] not just the brown people or ones who talk funny. Who trusts smart people anyway? They're obviously going to be planning something! [/sarcasm]

edit: added sarcasm tags, because the internet

[robkelk]

First off, I hope the heat problems where you are abate, that sounds terrible. Second, as someone who was apathetic to either outcome, and someone who studies history, calling your political opponents evil is incredibly stupid. If they have committed grievous error, burning any bridge towards winning them back to your side is a bad idea.

Well, what do you call somebody who willingly chooses to follow a course of action that they know (or should know considering how often they've been shown the evidence) will harm both your children and their own children just so they can make more money?

Climate-change allowers are at least as evil as neo-Nazis are, if not more so. And a majority of people who voted in the USA voted to "drill, baby, drill" -- making the climate-change problem worse instead of better. But, hey, they're getting their 30 pieces of silver out of it. Who cares about an extended hurricane season in Florida and an extended wildfire season in Texas and Arizona, as long as the people in those states have a few more dollars in their pockets? It's only the environment.

[classicdrogn]

Humans are bad at recognizing the impact of long term problems emotionally. A few extra dollars today to get a pack of hamburger instead of just mac and cheese, or a new jacket for the kid since last year's is a little tight and worn around the cuffs, or just a fresh pack of cigs instead of having to stretch it until payday - that means a lot more than "It'll be half a degree warmer next year than last year," or connect that to more and more intense storms, or yet those to the possibility of personally being impacted by them even if there are, or not more than before and obviously they got through then, right?

That much, I don't even really blame people for. No, what I can't understand or forgive is believing the bastard gave a single solitary shit in all his nepo baby life about any of that, or even to address such plebeian concerns for the sake of keeping promises. He certainly doesn't care about keeping to national treaties, with far more impact and legal weight than hot air spewed on the campaign trail, and having succeeded in his run from prosecution, why should he?

There's no point in keeping lines open with his sycophants, either. Compromise requires common ground, and faith that the other side will keep their end of a deal. With the current Republican party there is little of the first on almost any issue and none of the second.

[Jinx999]

Look on the bright side. When his idiotic tariff plan and Musk's idiotic gut the government plan wreck the US economy and create a major recession, that will reduce the amount of fossil fuel use.

[Isodecan]

As far as I can tell (and I live in Oklahoma so I know plenty of people who at this point are quite happy with the results) there are a lot of people who think Trumps rhetoric and the whole Project 2025 thing is just "owning the Libs" and Trump and the Republicans in the Senate (and possibly the House although they haven't retained control of that yet) will just do business as usual for a Republican administration.

I hope they are correct.

There also appears to have been a strong faction on Trump fixing the economy (which seems dubious although if he doesn't mess with anything beyond more Tax Cuts and deregulation it might remain stable for the next four years) and also one on him fixing the immigration issue (which they appear to have missed that he deliberately torpedoed solving so he could have this open as an issue).

[robkelk]

I hope they are correct.

As do I... but I'm not going to hold my breath. I know too much about politics.


'In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge'
― Antony Jay, The Complete Yes Minister (1981)

[Dartz]

I'm reminded of the people who voted for Brexit - while living in Spain, without understand what leaving the European Union actually meant, or that it would actually happen. Then they voted for Theresa May. And Boris Johnson. *And* got a Lettuce so odious the motherfucking Queen abdicated with extreme prejudice to avoid ever having to deal with her again.

Now they're being deported from their homes in Spain because they're no longer EU citizens, have to pay duty and VAT on everything they order from the EU, and nobody wants to buy their shit in Europe because there's duty and VAT on that. And that's just ordinary duty - with all its attendant paperwork and fees and bureaucracy.

The dildo of consequences is coming.

For those who voted Trump. And for those who didn't vote at all.

This isn't the result you get when you vote. This is what happens when you don't bother.