Why I love DW II (and hate it)

[Murmur the Fallen]

That depends on what you mean by "evens out". He'll find out something that will force him to realize he owes the White Saber a bit of an apology, but he doesn't change his mind on the status of boomers as enslaved sentients.
-- Bob
[I guess what I mean by "evens out" is that Doug returns to the rather happy-go-lucky fella that doesn't talk a reactionary--a really cliche reactionary.
And you just know that if Priss is anywhere near when Doug does his apology, she is going to squeeze as much enjoyment from it as possible.
Which brings up another point: how well does Doug handle being on the other side of the moral blame game? Apologize and move on or sink to a Piro-esque level of depression?
And if he doesn't change his mind about boomer slavery, how does he feel about leaving before anything is done about it? At least, that's what I assume is going to happen . . .
-murmur the fallen
who asks, hey, think you can read this really short bgc character introspection mini-fic?

[Bob Schroeck]

---

I guess what I mean by "evens out" is that Doug returns to the rather happy-go-lucky fella that doesn't talk a reactionary--a really cliche reactionary.

---

Huh. I never saw Doug's dialogue/POV as particularly reactionary. But then again, my personal political views are best plotted as a scatter diagram...

---

And you just know that if Priss is anywhere near when Doug does his apology, she is going to squeeze as much enjoyment from it as possible.

---

That hadn't occurred to me, but yeah, you're right. I'll have to see if I can shoehorn a little more crow-eating in somewhere...

---

Which brings up another point: how well does Doug handle being on the other side of the moral blame game? Apologize and move on or sink to a Piro-esque level of depression?

---

A little of the latter at first, then he should shake himself out of it and continue with the former.

---

And if he doesn't change his mind about boomer slavery, how does he feel about leaving before anything is done about it? At least, that's what I assume is going to happen . . .

---

Well, that's something you'll have to wait and see.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Logan Darklighter]

---

Quote:

---

And if he doesn't change his mind about boomer slavery, how does he feel about leaving before anything is done about it? At least, that's what I assume is going to happ

---

---

Well, that's something you'll have to wait and see.[/quote]
I'm going to give a hearty pre-reader "MUA HA HA HA HA HA!!!" here.
Roit! Nothing to see here! Carry on! Carry on! ^_^
-Logan
-----------------
"So there I was, lying flat on my back, with my face pressed into the dirt, thinking, "Wait a minute, something's not rig..."
-----------------

[Bob Schroeck]

Doncha just hate these people who know everything that's going to happen in the story, when you don't?
I know I do.

(Nice laugh, btw, Logan. I see the group training sessions with the other prereaders have got you nicely up to speed. )

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess what I mean by "evens out" is that Doug returns to the rather happy-go-lucky fella that doesn't talk a reactionary--a really cliche reactionary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Huh. I never saw Doug's dialogue/POV as particularly reactionary. But then again, my personal political views are best plotted as a scatter diagram...
[Hmm, guess I should have said . . . that he was acting on a knee-jerk reaction, with little thought and reacting instinctually. Nothing to do with politics.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you just know that if Priss is anywhere near when Doug does his apology, she is going to squeeze as much enjoyment from it as possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That hadn't occurred to me, but yeah, you're right. I'll have to see if I can shoehorn a little more crow-eating in somewhere...
[Looking forward to it. Priss is an expect crow server. You just have to look for the golden robot parts in her trailer to figure that out.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which brings up another point: how well does Doug handle being on the other side of the moral blame game? Apologize and move on or sink to a Piro-esque level of depression?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little of the latter at first, then he should shake himself out of it and continue with the former.
["I'm worthless, I'm scum, I'm . . . hey, they actually made a movie version of "Who Plugged Roger Rabbit" here? Awesome.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if he doesn't change his mind about boomer slavery, how does he feel about leaving before anything is done about it? At least, that's what I assume is going to happen . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, that's something you'll have to wait and see.
-- Bob
[It's not nice to tease people, you know.]
-murmur
who assumes from the lack of response that you're not willing to preread a really very short work . .. sniff. . . .

[Bob Schroeck]

---

Hmm, guess I should have said . . . that he was acting on a knee-jerk reaction, with little thought and reacting instinctually. Nothing to do with politics.

---

Ah, okay, yeah, well, one of Doug's more "endearing" characteristics is a certain amount of impulsiveness. As Hexe will gladly tell you at length.

---

Looking forward to it. Priss is an expect crow server. You just have to look for the golden robot parts in her trailer to figure that out.

---

---

"I'm worthless, I'm scum, I'm . . . hey, they actually made a movie version of "Who Plugged Roger Rabbit" here? Awesome."

---

Yeah, pretty much on the money. Doug, the superhero with the attention span of Kiki from Sluggy Freelance...

---

It's not nice to tease people, you know.

---

I just want to make sure there's something left for people to read in the last chapters when they comes out!

---

who assumes from the lack of response that you're not willing to preread a really very short work . .. sniff.

---

Um. Willing, yes. Able? Not at the moment. Final edit phase on That Damned Book is eating my life. Bigtime. I might be able to do my taxes tonight, for example. Might.


-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, guess I should have said . . . that he was acting on a knee-jerk reaction, with little thought and reacting instinctually. Nothing to do with politics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, okay, yeah, well, one of Doug's more "endearing" characteristics is a certain amount of impulsiveness. As Hexe will gladly tell you at length.
[Especially impulsive when it comes to jumping to conclusions.]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm worthless, I'm scum, I'm . . . hey, they actually made a movie version of "Who Plugged Roger Rabbit" here? Awesome."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, pretty much on the money. Doug, the superhero with the attention span of Kiki from Sluggy Freelance...
[That's . . . very, very scary.]
-murmur

[Murmur the Fallen]

As mentioned before in this very thread, I love this work, as can be seen by the fact that I post a lot here.
But I think the biggest trap, the biggest danger of it all is this: there's very little conflict.
A quick look through the "Spell Songbook" shows that Doug can handle anything thrown at him pretty well. You'd need Galactus-level power to do anything really bad to him, and there's nobody like that in either BGC or the future chapters (with the exception of the Norns, only they're goddesses and thus don't count).
The only conflicts here are emotional, and that's not very dramatic. Drama is built on conflict, and frankly there doesn't seem to be much that Doug can't use his superpowers for and beat pretty handily.
I mean, he took out the Knight Sabers pretty easily. The only thing he has to worry about is not being able to save every "innocent bystander" around, and even then he can call up a handy god and try to get them to live again.
Without conflict, without there being an actual threat to Doug, there's not going to be much interest in reading this beyond the "hey, Doug's in Cowboy Bebop. Look at how quick he beat Spike up, heh heh."
-murmur the fallen
say, how fast COULD doug beat spike spiegel up . . .

[Logan Darklighter]

I think that's a rather narrow view of what's a good story, drama does not equate physical conflict and emotional and mental conflict are necessary components if the end result is to be something other then the equivilent of a cheap action novel.
In my opinion the relative lack of overt conflict is a welcome contrast to most anime and manga fanfiction on the Net , a very large part of wich are buildt around the premise "beat up the new threat", they might still be very good but it does get old after a while.

[Murmur the Fallen]

I think that's a rather narrow view of what's a good story, drama does not equate physical conflict and emotional and mental conflict are necessary components if the end result is to be something other then the equivilent of a cheap action novel.
In my opinion the relative lack of overt conflict is a welcome contrast to most anime and manga fanfiction on the Net , a very large part of wich are buildt around the premise "beat up the new threat", they might still be very good but it does get old after a while.
[Very true. There is a lot of the ol' Dragonball syndrome in a lot of fics, though I will argue that there are many fics who have an emotional element to them as well.
But when I said in my earlier post that the "emotional conflict isn't very dramatic," I meant that beyond his very brief moments of remorse and anger, Doug does not have to fight himself at all. He does what he thinks is right, and while that's good from a character view point, it's not dramatic.
Frankly, Lisa Vanette's story is much more compelling, what with her ambitions, fears, and worries about betraying one or the other of her friends. She's both conflicted and in conflicts where she is in peril, and that makes it dramatic.
But as the main protagonist is Doug, who follows through on what he thinks is best, is emotionally healthy if lonely, and can't be beat in a fight, there is no conflict at all with him. What are his biggest worries? Boomer sentience and getting home. Big concerns, yes, but there isn't enough adversity, enough conflict, in his way to make that dramatic. He has it too easy. I mean, for god's sake, look at how quick he found an apartment in Tokyo. I don't know how it might be in Mega-Tokyo, but by all rights he shouldn't have been able to find something bigger than a wardrobe if he liquidated all of his gems in modern Tokyo and I can't imagine what with Genom buying as much land as possible, it's gotten any better (okay, an exaggeration, but you get the idea). It all comes too easily for Doug.
I mean, hell, even Superman had *some* problems.
-murmur the fallen

[Logan Darklighter]

>I mean, hell, even Superman had *some* problems.
I think Doug has far more problems than superman ever had.
>I think that's a rather narrow view of what's a good story, drama does not equate physical conflict and emotional and mental conflict are necessary components if the end result is to be something other then the equivilent of a cheap action novel.
Every story mut have some conflict whatever form it takes. Otherwise it's not a story according to my lit teach (and I agree that it's a nessesary but not sufficient condition).
DW has all three, and I agree that Lisa's story is compelling, but so is Doug's. As for which is more compelling that would have to be a personal judgement.
Doug is in danger from the boomers, otherwise he wouldn't need his healing spells to fix broken ribs, and [sarcasm]other such obviosly trivial wounds [/sarcasm]. If Lady luck had sided a bit more with the boomers Doug might well be dead.
>look at how quick he found an apartment in Tokyo
I for one don't think that it should be that big of a problem, an affordable appartment might be more of one but Doug has several gems he can use to get one. On the other hand someone looking for an apartment is not ussually the most interesting of stories (it can be, but normlay it's not). Handwaving little details like this so that the story doesn't get boged down is good if you can, and if used judiciously.

[Bob Schroeck]

---

Especially impulsive when it comes to jumping to conclusions.

---

Well, yeah. It's how I've played him since my first Warriors session back in 1986. He has mellowed over the years, but the BGC world is stressing him out a bit.

---

Yeah, pretty much on the money. Doug, the superhero with the attention span of Kiki from Sluggy Freelance...
That's . . . very, very scary.

---

He can even "poing!" like her when he wants...

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

I do want to answer Murmur's comments, but I'm short on time this morning. The same reason I put in overtime this weekend at work constrains me to less time this morning to post here. I just want you to know I'm not ignoring you, okay? Tonight, I hope... or maybe tomorrow.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

... I do intend to respond to Murmur. It's just that, well, I find his posts a bit disconcerting, almost intimidating, and that throws me off my stride when it comes to how to address them. If I can make a quick point, the story's not about the violence. Doug might be able to kick the Sabers' collective butt, or vice versa. That's not the point of the story. The whole intent of chapter 12 -- besides giving me an opportunity to write a really cool fight scene (I must admit), and to give the readers a glance at some of the Warriors in action -- was to a) provide a penultimate point to Nene's arc, b) similarly move Linna into play as the conscience of the Sabers, c) set up Sylia in a situation where she has to make a conscious decision about the purpose of the Sabers rather than just run on automatic, and d) most importantly, show the ultimate futility of fighting it out in the streets. Sure, Doug technically kicked the Sabers' butts. What did it get him? Nothing. It lost him important resources: Sylia will refuse to yank his fat out of the fire now, should he need it, because that would be "interfering with one of his operations". Leon, who was just beginning to trust and like him, is going to be hostile again. The only person he hasn't alienated is Lisa. Oh, and after what Hexe told him, he's not going to want to pull out simulacra to save his own butt in the future. Like the Sabers' own operations, it's futile, in the big picture; at best it acts as a brake on the worst offenders. The whole point of chapter 12 was to show that fighting -- boomers, the Sabers, anyone -- in the street is futile, inasfar as a strategy for Doug is concerned. It doesn't matter how much stronger he is than them, if he is at all -- it's pointless because it's only dealing with a symptom, not the cause.
And as a further point, Doug's vaunted power has a limit, and that's range. Most of his power effects won't go past about 33 meters. A few things will reach the length of a football field. Madigan's teams could have killed him without a second thought at any point in the story, if that were their goal, from further away than tnat. So could have the Sabers, if they were so inclined. Doug's only powerful close up. That's why he supplements his field with armor, because people can and have tried to take him out at a distance.
Huh. This turned out longer than I thought. If that satisfies you, Murmur, let me know. If not, I can continue.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

... I do intend to respond to Murmur. It's just that, well, I find his posts a bit disconcerting, almost intimidating, and that throws me off my stride when it comes to how to address them.
[Not sure if that's a bad thing or not. I certainly don't mean to be "disconcerting" or "intimidating", but I don't think that criticism in its positive sense (which I hope I've been, and if I have not I shall promptly shut up) is neccessarily bad. As for throwing you off your stride . . . not quite sure how to respond to that.
If I can make a quick point, the story's not about the violence. Doug might be able to kick the Sabers' collective butt, or vice versa. That's not the point of the story.
[Um. How to say this without coming off as a stubborn, willfully ignorant jackass (which I *am*, but that doesn't mean I want to advertise as such) . . . If the violence isn't the point, why is there so much of it? I mean, yes, granted violence is rarely simply about the violence, but it's saying *something*, either allegorically or symbollically. My impression is that by winning, Doug's position is being reinforced. You know: trial by combat. If this is not the case, then why the consistent wins and the showcasing, as it were, of such?]
The whole intent of chapter 12 -- besides giving me an opportunity to write a really cool fight scene (I must admit)
[While I *love* crossovers, I am always reminded of Mike Carey's comments on having Lucifer and John Constantine crossing over: it will always undermines one, and thus be unsatisfying.]
, and to give the readers a glance at some of the Warriors in action -- was to a) provide a penultimate point to Nene's arc
[Nene had an ARC? Okay, that totally blew past me. I guess I haven't been paying enough attention, darn it.]
, b) similarly move Linna into play as the conscience of the Sabers,
[While, yes, I can see it, Linna makes for a pretty funny conscience. "No money? NO MONEY? B-but . . *sputter, sputter*. I'm exaggerating but still. She can, as the saying goes, trust her with your life, just not your money.]
c) set up Sylia in a situation where she has to make a conscious decision about the purpose of the Sabers rather than just run on automatic
[Though I can't really prove it, I've always seen Sylia as having a grand MASTER PLAN. It's slow, subtle, but devastating. I like to think of her sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat and having a good maniacal laugh to herself.]
, and d) most importantly, show the ultimate futility of fighting it out in the streets.
[Oh. Well . . .]
Sure, Doug technically kicked the Sabers' butts. What did it get him? Nothing.
[Surely he must have enjoyed it a little? C'mon, admit it, he enjoyed unleashing that ol' rightous fury, going old testament on the knight sabers, right? Just a little? C'mon.]
It lost him important resources: Sylia will refuse to yank his fat out of the fire now, should he need it, because that would be "interfering with one of his operations".
[And you can see Priss smirking while Sylia deadpanns this, because Priss is not a nice person. She's a good person, just not nice.]
Leon, who was just beginning to trust and like him, is going to be hostile again.
[And a hostile Leon will not flirt with you, making the world a sadder place. Daley will flirt with you, but that's because Daley's a much nicer person.]
The only person he hasn't alienated is Lisa.
[Yeah, how's her arc coming along?]
Oh, and after what Hexe told him, he's not going to want to pull out simulacra to save his own butt in the future. Like the Sabers' own operations, it's futile, in the big picture; at best it acts as a brake on the worst offenders.
[I guess . . . can't really comment, here.]
The whole point of chapter 12 was to show that fighting -- boomers, the Sabers, anyone -- in the street is futile, inasfar as a strategy for Doug is concerned. It doesn't matter how much stronger he is than them, if he is at all -- it's pointless because it's only dealing with a symptom, not the cause.
[That's pretty radical thinking there. Of course, treating the symptoms does work sometimes. But there wasn't, as far as I could see, that one moment where he realizes the futility of street fighting. You know, that one Charlton Heston on Planet of the Apes, seeing the Statue of Liberty, You maniacs moment. You know?]
And as a further point, Doug's vaunted power has a limit, and that's range. Most of his power effects won't go past about 33 meters.
[I can only plead ignorance on that part. To me, he seems pretty darn invincible. And given how fricking mobile and FAST (superluminal? That's fast. That's faster than fast.) how anything could be out of his range is quite hard to believe.]
A few things will reach the length of a football field. Madigan's teams could have killed him without a second thought at any point in the story, if that were their goal, from further away than tnat.
[Oh, well, I guess if you hit him with an orbital laser platform or a really long shot . . . but that's not very dramatic, is it? I'm reminded that it took a couple nukes to take out Twister, and even then it only got a couple of his limbs. And he grew them back. Ah, well, let me mull this over and get back to you.]
So could have the Sabers, if they were so inclined. Doug's only powerful close up. That's why he supplements his field with armor, because people can and have tried to take him out at a distance.
[Priss probably does fantasize a little about sniping Doug with her railgun.]
Huh. This turned out longer than I thought. If that satisfies you, Murmur, let me know. If not, I can continue.
-- Bob
[satisfy? I guess . . . I still think that Doug needs a bit more "believable" conflict, some more defeats that aren't so emotional, to make this a better work. As it is, it's too damn easy for him. But thanks for the response.]

-murmur the fallen
Doug and Howard the Duck: trapped on worlds they never made.

[offsides]

[Um. How to say this without coming off as a stubborn, willfully ignorant jackass (which I *am*, but that doesn't mean I want to advertise as such) . . . If the violence isn't the point, why is there so much of it? I mean, yes, granted violence is rarely simply about the violence, but it's saying *something*, either allegorically or symbollically. My impression is that by winning, Doug's position is being reinforced. You know: trial by combat. If this is not the case, then why the consistent wins and the showcasing, as it were, of such?]
First off, it isn't a BGC universe if there isn't violence - that's part of the whole "dark, cyberpunk future with rampaging boomers" genre Second, yes, Doug does do a lot of fighting and "winning", but it's all part of the setup to the dual-error of his ways: a) the boomers are (by his definition) "sentient", and thus should be helped and not dismantled; and b) Hexe smacks him down by pointing out that his actions against the sabers were ultimately a really stupid thing to do and that he had a real bad case of testostorone poisoning.
[Nene had an ARC? Okay, that totally blew past me. I guess I haven't been paying enough attention, darn it.]
Yes, and it's a rather important one - go back and re-read, paying attention to Nene's thoughts, words and actions. You will hopefully understand.
[Though I can't really prove it, I've always seen Sylia as having a grand MASTER PLAN. It's slow, subtle, but devastating. I like to think of her sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat and having a good maniacal laugh to herself.]
She may have one, but part of that plan has always (IMHO) been to ignore the issue of boomer sentiencein a supreme act of cognitive dissonence. She knows that there's more to boomers than what's publicly stated, but to acknowledge it would require her to make a decision about it, and she just doesn't want to...
[Surely he must have enjoyed it a little? C'mon, admit it, he enjoyed unleashing that ol' rightous fury, going old testament on the knight sabers, right? Just a little? C'mon.]
Oh, he did - just look at his attitude. But when it was all over, his CO chewed him several new orifices and kicked his attitude halfway back to his home dimension. Haven't you ever done something that you enjoyed while doing it, and then got reamed for it afterwards?
[I can only plead ignorance on that part. To me, he seems pretty darn invincible. And given how fricking mobile and FAST (superluminal? That's fast. That's faster than fast.) how anything could be out of his range is quite hard to believe.]
Yes, he can be that fast, but only when using a specific song. And when he does that, he doesn't have a lot of the other options that might be a bit more useful to the situation. Remember, Doug's powers may be nearly infinitely varied, but not all at once.
[Oh, well, I guess if you hit him with an orbital laser platform or a really long shot . . . but that's not very dramatic, is it? I'm reminded that it took a couple nukes to take out Twister, and even then it only got a couple of his limbs. And he grew them back. Ah, well, let me mull this over and get back to you.]
I can't speak for Bob, but I expect that if hit by the orbitl laser system, Doug would be vaporized. His field can stop a lot of stuff, but that's pushing it a bit far. Of course, Doug really isn't in the same league as Twister, power-wise. 99.99% of the time Twister would probably mop the floor with Doug in a 1-on-1. The other time would be a lucky choice of song for Doug that would get in a lucky shot...
[satisfy? I guess . . . I still think that Doug needs a bit more "believable" conflict, some more defeats that aren't so emotional, to make this a better work. As it is, it's too damn easy for him. But thanks for the response.]
Not exactly sure what you're looking for here, and I can't really answer it anyway since I'm not the author. But if you're looking to see Doug "lose" big time, all I can say is that I'm a pre-reader, and I know what's coming
Your comments aren't offensive or insulting, and so are always welcome even if I don't always understand or agree with them
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

[Bob Schroeck]

---

Not sure if that's a bad thing or not. I certainly don't mean to be "disconcerting" or "intimidating", but I don't think that criticism in its positive sense (which I hope I've been, and if I have not I shall promptly shut up) is neccessarily bad.

---

No, I'm not objecting to the criticism. It's just that you're coming from an angle that makes me doubt whether I've accomplished what I set out to do.

---

If the violence isn't the point, why is there so much of it?

---

As Josh said, because it's BGC and to an extent that's the nature of the beast. MegaTokyo is a violent place, whether or not Doug is there.

---

Nene had an ARC?

---

Yes, she does. At the risk of saying too much, she's intentionally emblematic of a number of things going on in the story at several different levels. And before anyone asks, yes, there are deliberate parallels and echoes between the aftermaths of the Nene-Maggie and Doug-Nene conflicts.

---

While, yes, I can see it, Linna makes for a pretty funny conscience.

---

What's so funny about it? She's the most centered and the most "normal" of the four in canon. If any of them could step back and look at things from a purely objective viewpoint, it would be Linna, who has no axes to grind nor is swamped in innocent idealism.

---

"No money? NO MONEY? B-but . . *sputter, sputter*.

---

Definitely a fanfic convention, although she is financially astute. As I recall, Priss makes just as many comments about money, in the same vein. They just haven't become part of her stereotype.

---

She can, as the saying goes, trust her with your life, just not your money.

---

Why not? She's a stockbroker now, if we are to believe Crash! That means she has to be minimally trustworthy enough to get hired in the first place... and she deals with millions of other people's yen every day.

---

I like to think of her sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat and having a good maniacal laugh to herself.

---

Snort. "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade."
If Sylia has a master plan other than "kill the boomers that show up this time." she hasn't showed it. I long ago joined the camp that believes that she is acting on an external compulsion to enact revenge for her father, implanted and/or activated when she got that cartridge way back when. I don't believe there is any kind of master plan, and that's why so much of the fighting in BGC is ultimately futile. It's unfocused.

---

Surely he must have enjoyed it a little?

---

Josh already addressed this more than adequately.

---

And a hostile Leon will not flirt with you, making the world a sadder place. Daley will flirt with you, but that's because Daley's a much nicer person.

---

And a hostile Leon will send you a bill for a new Earthshaker.

---

Yeah, how's her arc coming along?

---

Lisa gets a lot more screen time in chapter 13. Don't worry about her.

---

But there wasn't, as far as I could see, that one moment where he realizes the futility of street fighting.

---

Well, remember, almost all of chapter 12 took place in what, about ten minutes or so. He hasn't had the time yet to reflect on what happened and what Hexe told him. That happens in 13.

---

To me, he seems pretty darn invincible.

---

It's certainly the image he wants to project -- think of how many times in the story he's injured (sometimes badly) and keeps going strong despite that. Part of that is reflecting the V&V rules, where physical damage doesn't slow you down until you pass out at 0 HP, but part of it is also the Warriors Image thing -- "We are implacable, we are unstoppable, we are standing on your mangled corpse."

---

And given how fricking mobile and FAST (superluminal? That's fast. That's faster than fast.) how anything could be out of his range is quite hard to believe.

---

Okay, remember, as Josh points out, that other than his inherent physical mutations, Doug can really do only one spectacular thing at a time. (Sometimes it looks like more, but we quantify with V&V rules, which often roll several effects into a single power -- Lightning Control, for instance, lets you fling bolts with the best, but also lets you remotely control or short out anything electrical or electronic.) If he's flying FTL, then he has no ranged attacks. If he has ranged attacks, he can't walk through walls. And so on. Think of it as a lot like Ultra-Boy's (from LSH) schtick.

---

Oh, well, I guess if you hit him with an orbital laser platform or a really long shot . . . but that's not very dramatic, is it?

---

Depends on how you present it. If you've been paying attention for the last few chapters, you should realize that Madigan is planning something that clearly involves the latter.

---

I'm reminded that it took a couple nukes to take out Twister, and even then it only got a couple of his limbs.

---

I know the passage you're thinking of, and it wasn't nukes, but conventional explosives -- a lot of them. And frankly, Twister would wipe the floor with Doug -- I'm not even as confident on this issue as Josh is.

---

I still think that Doug needs a bit more "believable" conflict, some more defeats that aren't so emotional,

---

Let me just say, wait for the next two chapters. Things are going somewhere that, while I've shown you the path already, I doubt you're expecting. Of all the readers who've posted anything about it, only Logan Darklighter has even guessed what I've got in store -- and even he didn't get the whole story.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

Josh, thanks for your coments to Murmur! You covered a lot of ground that I didn't have to, and that made answering the remaining issues a lot easier.

---

I can't speak for Bob, but I expect that if hit by the orbitl laser system, Doug would be vaporized. His field can stop a lot of stuff, but that's pushing it a bit far.

---

Oh, definitely. It would be roasty-toasty Doug time.

---

Your comments aren't offensive or insulting, and so are always welcome even if I don't always understand or agree with them

---

Murmur, I forgot to address this in my answer to you -- your comments have never been offensive or insulting. What they do is make me stop and think, sometimes doubt myself, and sometimes go back and doublecheck that I'm doing what I thought I was doing. This is a good thing, and you have my gratitude for it.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

No, I'm not objecting to the criticism. It's just that you're coming from an angle that makes me doubt whether I've accomplished what I set out to do.
[as I have absolutely no idea what your goals are other than, you know, the usual telling of a good story, i can't really answer that. As for telling a good story, you've accomplished that from my point of view, despite the many nagging nitpicks i've posted here and which you should probably ignore.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the violence isn't the point, why is there so much of it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As Josh said, because it's BGC and to an extent that's the nature of the beast. MegaTokyo is a violent place, whether or not Doug is there.
[Yeah, you're right there. Sylia should make a new rule: "Do not make friends outside of the Knight Sabers. They will die in as ironic a way possible.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nene had an ARC?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, she does. At the risk of saying too much, she's intentionally emblematic of a number of things going on in the story at several different levels. And before anyone asks, yes, there are deliberate parallels and echoes between the aftermaths of the Nene-Maggie and Doug-Nene conflicts.
[Uh . . . okay. Gonna really have to re-read everything . . .]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While, yes, I can see it, Linna makes for a pretty funny conscience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's so funny about it? She's the most centered and the most "normal" of the four in canon. If any of them could step back and look at things from a purely objective viewpoint, it would be Linna, who has no axes to grind nor is swamped in innocent idealism.
[She is the most normal one of the four, granted. And she's a nice person, yes. But as for being the conscience . . . wouldn't you kind of want it to *have* a sort of ...well, if not innocent, at least determined idealism? like nene? or does it go counter to her arc? I guess Linna could be the conscience. I have no real problem with it. Given how she handled Vision, it makes more sense. It just conjures up funny images, that's all.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No money? NO MONEY? B-but . . *sputter, sputter*.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definitely a fanfic convention, although she is financially astute. As I recall, Priss makes just as many comments about money, in the same vein. They just haven't become part of her stereotype.
[It's not completely a fanfic convention. She cares about money, though I'm sure that isn't the entirety of her. Maybe not the extent as shown in fanfics, but she likes money.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She can, as the saying goes, trust her with your life, just not your money.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why not? She's a stockbroker now, if we are to believe Crash! That means she has to be minimally trustworthy enough to get hired in the first place... and she deals with millions of other people's yen every day.
[But is she above a little insider trading? A little corporate corruption? With Genom as the corporate powerhouse and thus world example, I'm sure that every other corporation is even more relaxed with the truth or lack of same in terms of taxes, stocks, etc. etc. And I'm sure that Linna's company is no exception.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like to think of her sitting in a darkened room, stroking a white cat and having a good maniacal laugh to herself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snort. "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to upgrade."
If Sylia has a master plan other than "kill the boomers that show up this time." she hasn't showed it. I long ago joined the camp that believes that she is acting on an external compulsion to enact revenge for her father, implanted and/or activated when she got that cartridge way back when. I don't believe there is any kind of master plan, and that's why so much of the fighting in BGC is ultimately futile. It's unfocused.

[okay.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And a hostile Leon will not flirt with you, making the world a sadder place. Daley will flirt with you, but that's because Daley's a much nicer person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And a hostile Leon will send you a bill for a new Earthshaker.
["Guns that're worthy of my machismo don't come easy or cheap, buddy!"]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, how's her arc coming along?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa gets a lot more screen time in chapter 13. Don't worry about her.

[Groovy. Lisa has definately been the break out character of this piece.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But there wasn't, as far as I could see, that one moment where he realizes the futility of street fighting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, remember, almost all of chapter 12 took place in what, about ten minutes or so. He hasn't had the time yet to reflect on what happened and what Hexe told him. That happens in 13.
[I guess this is where the word 'patience' is used. *sigh*. Okay, I'm taking the long view.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me, he seems pretty darn invincible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's certainly the image he wants to project -- think of how many times in the story he's injured (sometimes badly) and keeps going strong despite that. Part of that is reflecting the V&V rules, where physical damage doesn't slow you down until you pass out at 0 HP, but part of it is also the Warriors Image thing -- "We are implacable, we are unstoppable, we are standing on your mangled corpse."
[Warriors: jackbooted thugs of the new world order . . . but with a sense of humor.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And given how fricking mobile and FAST (superluminal? That's fast. That's faster than fast.) how anything could be out of his range is quite hard to believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, remember, as Josh points out, that other than his inherent physical mutations, Doug can really do only one spectacular thing at a time. (Sometimes it looks like more, but we quantify with V&V rules, which often roll several effects into a single power -- Lightning Control, for instance, lets you fling bolts with the best, but also lets you remotely control or short out anything electrical or electronic.) If he's flying FTL, then he has no ranged attacks. If he has ranged attacks, he can't walk through walls. And so on. Think of it as a lot like Ultra-Boy's (from LSH) schtick.
[Oh, okay. I guess that makes sense.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, well, I guess if you hit him with an orbital laser platform or a really long shot . . . but that's not very dramatic, is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on how you present it. If you've been paying attention for the last few chapters, you should realize that Madigan is planning something that clearly involves the latter.
[Hmm. Planning and doing are often not the same thing. So, any chance of a redemptive Madigan scene, soon?]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm reminded that it took a couple nukes to take out Twister, and even then it only got a couple of his limbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know the passage you're thinking of, and it wasn't nukes, but conventional explosives -- a lot of them. And frankly, Twister would wipe the floor with Doug -- I'm not even as confident on this issue as Josh is.
[Really? I thought for sure there were nukes. And Doug would give Twister some trouble, surely, if only in the beginning.]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still think that Doug needs a bit more "believable" conflict, some more defeats that aren't so emotional,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me just say, wait for the next two chapters. Things are going somewhere that, while I've shown you the path already, I doubt you're expecting. Of all the readers who've posted anything about it, only Logan Darklighter has even guessed what I've got in store -- and even he didn't get the whole story.
-- Bob
[Okay. I'll wait, ugh, patiently. And I'll try to stop pestering you so much that you can work.]
-murmur the fallen

[Bob Schroeck]

Murmur, I don't have the time left in my lunch hour to answer. I don't know if I'll get to it tonight, between The Matrix Reloaded, NGE:TMP and a few other things. But I'm not ignoring you.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[itsune9tl]

Quoted:
---------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
--------------------------------------------------
"I can't speak for Bob, but I expect that if hit by the
orbitl laser system, Doug would be vaporized. His
field can stop a lot of stuff, but that's pushing it a
bit far.
--------------------------------------------------
Oh, definitely. It would be roasty-toasty Doug time.
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't know, I could see Doug, covered with soot, standing
on a spire in the middle of a crater, after an Orbital Strike.
But only if it was funny.

[Star Ranger4]

muahhahahahahah!
Shades of the SJ Game "Toon"!!! Now THERE would be a place that might make even Doug go "BWA??? Im.... Im... Im... NORMAL!!!!""I was an Otaku before those kids came along and changed the meaning of the word."
-- HM "Howling Mad" Wilson to more than one team-mate.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[offsides]

---

I don't know, I could see Doug, covered with soot, standing
on a spire in the middle of a crater, after an Orbital Strike.
But only if it was funny.

---

If that happened, he'd have to have on e of his helmet speakers hanging off by a cable, and after he put it back hold up one finger and say som ethhing like "Let's try that again."
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

[Bob Schroeck]

Or he has to turn the entire helmet around, from where it's gotten backwards.
I've forgotten about replying to Murmur. Dammit.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

Re: Still a response to me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or he has to turn the entire helmet around, from where it's gotten backwards.
["Put 'em up, put 'em up; I'll murderalize ya!"]
I've forgotten about replying to Murmur. Dammit.
-- Bob
uh huh. no big whoop.
-murmur the fallen