Why I love DW II (and hate it)

[Bob Schroeck]

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As for telling a good story, you've accomplished that from my point of view, despite the many nagging nitpicks i've posted here and which you should probably ignore.

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How can I ignore the only substantial non-prereader criticism I've gotten on the structure and direction of the story? Believe me, even when I don't agree with you, I want to see what you say.

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Yeah, you're right there. Sylia should make a new rule: "Do not make friends outside of the Knight Sabers. They will die in as ironic a way possible.

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Nah, that'll just kick in higher levels of the Law of Conservation of Victims, and the Sabers'll start dropping.

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But as for being the conscience . . . wouldn't you kind of want it to *have* a sort of ...well, if not innocent, at least determined idealism? like nene?

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Yes, under most circumstances Nene would make a good conscience for the Sabers. However, in DW2, Nene's caught in her own crisis of conscience, having discovered that it's possible her idealism has taken her somewhere she doesn't want to be, and can't believe she'd be. Linna is enough of a realist that she can look at the Sabers and their mission from an objective point of view, and Nene can't. Nene's caught up in being The Heroine, who by defnition Always Does Good -- that's the trap of her idealism, and when Doug points out that from another point of view she could easily be a murderer -- a Villain -- she goes into a mental tailspin. She can't be the conscience, then, because she's lacking and looking for the kind of moral and ethical compass that Linna, being more worldly and more objective, can provide.

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or does it go counter to her arc?

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Yes -- see above.

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But is she above a little insider trading?

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I see no evidence of her being unethical or criminal in her dealings, although the amount of time we see her at her job in Crash! is miniscule.

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Groovy. Lisa has definately been the break out character of this piece.

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Believe me, I'm as gratified as you, especially considering she was never anywhere near the original plot of the story! She only entered the tale around the second or third revision. I had always intended to keep Doug at one remove or further from the Sabers -- part of the anti-SI thing -- but I realized I needed someone who could move back and forth between him and them. I didn't want to create another new character, so after some browsing about, I picked Lisa, who had the added bonus that she was able and believably willing to do all kinds of wild things, as long as she could justify it as being for her journalistic efforts. And she just sorta grew from there. As I've said before, the "Sailor Loon" thing was originally a gag I wrote for my early prereaders, but then it got folded into the story for real, and that required changes and additions to Lisa that I had to back-propagate through the plot. (Her gymnastics background, for instance -- and we'll see a little bit more of that in Chapter 13, btw.)
Oh, and if Lisa had never been in the plot, Madigan's subplot with her own crisis of conscience would never have come about. That was never part of the original story; it wasn't even part of the story as late as chapter 4 or so! It grew out of another silly thought -- "what if Madigan were a Sailor Moon fan, too? How would she react to seeing Lisa in action?" But instead of coming out silly, it snowballed into something serious. (The silly got transplanted into all the unlikely Sailor Moon fans elsewhere in the story -- not originally intended as a running gag, but that's what it turned into.)

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Okay, I'm taking the long view.

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Well, I have to apologize there. I had hoped that Chapter 13 would be done by now.

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Warriors: jackbooted thugs of the new world order . . . but with a sense of humor.

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We're not thugs. "Thug" is such an ugly word. We're... talented muscle.

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So, any chance of a redemptive Madigan scene, soon?

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Okay, a spoiler. Yes. If the chapter structure doesn't change, before the end of chapter 14.

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Really? I thought for sure there were nukes.

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I guess I'll have to go find my copy of TP3 and look, now.

-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[drakensis]

Those weren't nukes fired at Twister - but what he did in retaliaton was sufficent to have an EM Pulse effect on Madigan's survival.
D for Drakensis

You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.

[Bob Schroeck]

I thought I remembered that correctly... Of course now that I'm home I can go to my archive and quote chapter-and-verse, but it's good not to need to. Thanks!

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Murmur the Fallen]

How can I ignore the only substantial non-prereader criticism I've gotten on the structure and direction of the story? Believe me, even when I don't agree with you, I want to see what you say.
[Hey, far out. Now I'm motivated to comb through your next chapter with a *really* fine tooth comb. moo hoo ha ha.]

Yes, under most circumstances Nene would make a good conscience for the Sabers. However, in DW2, Nene's caught in her own crisis of conscience, having discovered that it's possible her idealism has taken her somewhere she doesn't want to be, and can't believe she'd be. Linna is enough of a realist that she can look at the Sabers and their mission from an objective point of view, and Nene can't. Nene's caught up in being The Heroine, who by defnition Always Does Good -- that's the trap of her idealism, and when Doug points out that from another point of view she could easily be a murderer -- a Villain -- she goes into a mental tailspin. She can't be the conscience, then, because she's lacking and looking for the kind of moral and ethical compass that Linna, being more worldly and more objective, can provide.
[I suppose I see a bit more maturity in Nene than you, though I agree that she wants to be a heroine. But I do have a thought: is it possible for someone to grow up in MegaTokyo without enough cynicism to sort of deflect Doug's facile argument? I mean, she'd have to be Michael Jackson's kids level sheltered to not be able to forgoe the mental and moral tailspin you describe.
and is having a wordly, compromising conscience a good thing? after all, isn't a conscience about not compromising in the face of evil?]

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But is she above a little insider trading?
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I see no evidence of her being unethical or criminal in her dealings, although the amount of time we see her at her job in Crash! is miniscule.
[Since she's not above being unethical and criminal in her job as a mercenary, I'm not sure why it's such a big leap to white collar crime.]

Oh, and if Lisa had never been in the plot, Madigan's subplot with her own crisis of conscience would never have come about. That was never part of the original story; it wasn't even part of the story as late as chapter 4 or so! It grew out of another silly thought -- "what if Madigan were a Sailor Moon fan, too? How would she react to seeing Lisa in action?" But instead of coming out silly, it snowballed into something serious. (The silly got transplanted into all the unlikely Sailor Moon fans elsewhere in the story -- not originally intended as a running gag, but that's what it turned into.)
[But now how does Doug deal with the metafictional aspect of his walk into the Sailor Moon universe?]

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So, any chance of a redemptive Madigan scene, soon?
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Okay, a spoiler. Yes. If the chapter structure doesn't change, before the end of chapter 14.
[That's great. I've always had a place in my heart for our resident lavender-haired corporate lackey.]
-murmur

[offsides]

Here's my take on it - not that I think you're wrong, but that there are multiple ways to see it. Nene is the youngest of the Knight Sabers, and has always been a little innocent - see her reaction to the whole bit about recruiting Lisa and thinking that Sylia was gonna kill her rather than recruit her. To me that feels right - even if she's grown up some since the end of the OAV series, she still retains some of that youthful innocence (which it seems to me to be something the other Knight Sabers have encouraged). To have something so far off from her innocent picture of what she was doing thrown in her face (and not have Sylia refute it sufficiently to seal the crack) in enough to cause a major breakdown. Not right away, but those cracks eat at you over time until you break and rebuild from scratch (BTDT).
As for Linna, I'm not convinced that she's unethical in her job as a mercenary, she's just _very mercenary_ about it. Yes, she's very interested in getting rich, but she's also the most even-tempered of the group, and as such she's something of a stabilizing factor. Perhaps not quite a moral compass, but she usually keeps them on an even keel. And that's what I get out of this - she's not hot-headed enough to rage about it like Priss, nor idealistic enough to fight it, nor in denial about it. She's looked at it, realized that there may be something to it, and is trying to figure out the best way to resolve the issue for _everyone_.
Unfortunately, life's never that easy....
My $0.02.
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

[M Fnord]

Thought I'd throw my $0.02 in here...

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I suppose I see a bit more maturity in Nene than you, though I agree that she wants to be a heroine. But I do have a thought: is it possible for someone to grow up in MegaTokyo without enough cynicism to sort of deflect Doug's facile argument? I mean, she'd have to be Michael Jackson's kids level sheltered to not be able to forgoe the mental and moral tailspin you describe.

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Belief and denial are funny mechanisms. There are people today who have nigh-unshakeable belief that some people are Noble Heroes and others are Utter Bastards. The only way to break that belief is to throw a counterexample as hard as you possibly can at it. For example, most of the American public figured Nixon was a good, decent man until Watergate broke and showed him as... less than completely honest. Even then, there was a minority that was steadfast in believing it was all a horrible misunderstanding, or maybe a commie setup.
Now, Nene's had this kind of counter-truth thrown at her before we get to DW, in the form of Sylvie, Anri and Adama. For the most part, she's remained firm in her beliefs - it helped first of all that Nene never had the same level of direct connection to those three that Priss had, and it helped that they were, essentially, dupes in larger plans by more unsavory individuals - but the cracks were already there, if narrow and overlooked.
IMNSHO, I'm kinda following Offsides' train of thought; if Sylia (and come to think of it, Leon as well) hadn't hesitated when asked directly about boomers being people, I think Nene would have been sufficiently "cynical" enough to at least gloss over her doubts, and maybe think it through a little more rationally. But they didn't, and she didn't, and so things proceeded as they did.
--Mr. F
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[zojojojo]

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Now, Nene's had this kind of counter-truth thrown at her before we get to DW, in the form of Sylvie, Anri and Adama. For the most part, she's remained firm in her beliefs - it helped first of all that Nene never had the same level of direct connection to those three that Priss had, and it helped that they were, essentially, dupes in larger plans by more unsavory individuals - but the cracks were already there, if narrow and overlooked.

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I think the key here isn't that she was less involved but that she views them as exceptions to the rule. Sylvie et. al. weren't normal boomers that broke their bonds, they were 'special' to begin with... Sylvie and Anri because they were humaniform and almost human and Adama because he was the next generation...
In any case, Nene reacted like a child who's suddenly told that Santa is an axe murderer, which is, I think, quite in character for her. Like Priss said, in some respects, she is still very childlike...
-Z, Post-reader at Medium
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If architects built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.

[Bob Schroeck]

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Hey, far out. Now I'm motivated to comb through your next chapter with a *really* fine tooth comb. moo hoo ha ha.

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Sure, go ahead. Like I said, even if I don't necessarily agree with you, I appreciate the thought and the effort.

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is it possible for someone to grow up in MegaTokyo without enough cynicism to sort of deflect Doug's facile argument? I mean, she'd have to be Michael Jackson's kids level sheltered to not be able to forgoe the mental and moral tailspin you describe.

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Well, think about how she's depicted in the source material -- she certainly does seem to have that childlike optimism and idealism. Furthermore, as I recall from somewhere (and if I'm getting it wrong, someone please correct me), Nene didn't grow up in Megatokyo -- she grew up somewhere else, and ran away from home to the big city.
Anyway, I think the subthread that other folks have started up on this topic more than adequately explores the topic; it certainly hits upon some of my own opinions.

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and is having a wordly, compromising conscience a good thing? after all, isn't a conscience about not compromising in the face of evil?

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Who says Linna is "compromising"? I don't think we've ever seen her pull a "Nabiki" kind of stunt. She doesn't make deals or trade favors with the enemy; she's just as implacable and deadly when faced with opposition as anyone else in the Sabers. Being a realist doesn't mean you can't be as moral as an idealist, after all.

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Since she's not above being unethical and criminal in her job as a mercenary, I'm not sure why it's such a big leap to white collar crime.

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Well, by that measure, doesn't that mean Nene is no innocent either, and just as unsuited for the role of "team conscience"?

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But now how does Doug deal with the metafictional aspect of his walk into the Sailor Moon universe?

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At the time he is in the SM universe, Doug still knows nothing about metafictionality. He will be very intriqued and curious by the obvious connections between Lisa's "Sailor Loon" and Usagi's "Sailor Moon", but as he's never actually seen (or even learned about) the series while in MegaTokyo, he lacks a key piece of information that will let him synthesize the concept of transfictionality for himself.

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That's great. I've always had a place in my heart for our resident lavender-haired corporate lackey.

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I think you'll like what I do with and for her, then.


-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.