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Stampeding Loons
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 Quote:That's my general interpretation of it. Ebony the Black Dragon Senior Editor, Living Room Games www.lrgames.com Ebony the Black Dragon http://ebony14.livejournal.com "Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you." 
So Peg and I had a semiformal albeit slightly belated anniversary dinner last night in a very nice restaurant (in fact, the same one that hosted our wedding reception 13 years and 4 days ago). It's been a busy few weeks, and as we relaxed and ate some really delicious food, looking out the large windows at the beautiful scenery around the restaurant, what do you think we talked about?
That's right, a Drunkard's Walk Step in Trigun. Although to be fair, we spent a goodly about of time doing basic speculation on the nature of "Those who dwell outside of time" and other things in the series. For instance, we realized that Vash could have sidestepped the moral/ethical dilemma Legato forced him into by simply pistol-whipping the smug jerk into unconsciousness instead of shooting him; if Vash has no problems shooting to wound, he certainly shouldn't object to that. But anyway... Peggy liked the idea of Doug intersecting the cast right after Wolfwood's duel with his "teacher" -- we started laying out the very scene where Doug comes across the dying Wolfwood in the church. We came to the conclusion that, as far as the final showdown with Knives was concerned, Doug would be almost useless -- that town where Milly was digging the well could make better use of him than Vash could. We also decided that if Doug saved Wolfwood with a healing song, then the first major deviation from the remaining plot would be the return of his "teacher" to finish his job... only to get his ass kicked righteously by the Wolfwood-Doug team. And then we got the idea to do this not as a DW Step, but as an installment of "Drunkard's Vacation" -- with both Doug and Shadowwalker showing up on Gunsmoke. Which I quite like the idea of. I just got this image of Milly dropping her minigun, and Maggie just casually picking it up and handing it to her -- "Here, you dropped this" -- while an entire saloon boggles at them. Sorta like that early scene with the girls, only cranked a couple notches higher on the comedy scale. Anyway, enough rambling. I just wanted to let folks know that this is being thought about in odd and different ways. -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:The general take on that (as least as far as I've heard) was that Legato was using his powers to keep Vash's gun in place, aimed right at his head. -- Catty, the stealthy lurker Quote:Hmm. If they're trying to get that across in the episode, they failed miserably. -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:I don't think they were; somehow that theory has the flavor of fans trying to cover for a production team goof. For my part, I rather doubt that Legato -could- control Vash; I don't seem to recall him ever doing so. Most likely, neither the creators nor Vash thought of trying that at the time. Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." 
I have to watch that episode aain, but I certainly got the impression that Legato was indeed forcing Vash to keep his gun on him. Then again, I was under the impression that his powerset was essentially the same as Magneto, and he was controlling the gun itself, not Vash. It's been a while since I watched it, though, so what do I know?
- CD -- "Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows Quote:I thought he was more obviously a mind controller, or rather a "body controller", a puppeteer of other people. In which case, yes, he may well have been forcing Vash to hold that aim. (Peggy has pointed out that in that scene, all those people beating on Milly and Meryl would cast enough of a shadow for Shadowwalker to teleport in and rescue them... between her and Doug, that whole scene would work out quite differently. Doug would have been a lot less hesitant about killing the bastard. But without the guilt and anguish in the wake of killing Legato, would Vash have been as strongly motivated to end things the way he did?) -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. 
The best and most permanent solution not involving Legato's death would, it seems to me, have been for Vash to simply shoot his borrowed arm off. No Angel Arm, no psi powers, apply a tourniquet and call for a doctor. A bit bloody, yes, but Vash has maimed his opponents before (Gofsef Nebraska springs to mind, similar circumstances even). Heck, maybe he could have it put back on his own shoulder and ditch the cyberarm.
In fact this is such an obvious solution (to me anyway) that Vash's not using it constitutes an excellent argument for Legato's putting a mental hold on him. ...and as a side note, the percentage of Trigun continuation fics in which Millie is pregnant approaches 100. --Sam Ashley ...only someone from Warriors' World would refer to that thing as a MINIgun.  "I said put it in the HAPPY BOX!" Quote:Except the Angel Arm isn't the cybernetic arm... -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak.
As witness to the fact that both Knives and Legato were -utterly- fucked up, I will attest that certain things said in the later episodes lead me to conclude that Knives took Vash's lost arm, -grafted it onto Legato-, and then sent Our Favorite Skull-Boy out after its original owner.
I question, however, whether Legato's powers have anything to do with that. We certainly see enough -other- people with funky powers and no... umm, how do you describe that, anyway? Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." Quote:Yeah, it wasn't ever really explored, but Legato did indeed say that his arm used to belong to Vash. Just when the hell did that happen, though? (A question to which the anime will never give an answer, sadly...) Quote:Lack of lack of arm? (edited by offsides to fix quoting problem) -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:Vash and Knives met in July City about 10 years ago. They had a show down and Knives shot Vash's left arm off. He then retreived his black six-gun and activated Vash's remaining arm, which merged with the silver six-gun into the Angel Arm. The discharge destroyed July City (although it didn't kill anyone), disintergrated Knives from the waist down and left Vash with amnesia. Somehow, Knives made it back to his base with the black six-gun and Vash's arm. It is not made clear how long he has employed the Gung Ho Guns - Money the Gale has been training for 20 years to kill Vash but since July City was confined in a cellar to do so, so Knives has presumably had agents for awhile but probably didn't ahve many until he had to regenerate in a Plant, putting him out of action for years. It seems likely that Legato was one of the first recruited but Vash's arm might well have been grafted on at any point durng the intervening decade. Vash on the other hand, wandered into the desert, was rescued by people from the flying city, and was given a cybernetic arm. D for Drakensis You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
Okay, did I miss an explanation somewhere in the series, or is this extra-series data that I'd have to have found somewhere else? I mean, I could figure out some of that from what I remember watching, but not all of it.
-- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak.
That matches almost exactly with what I had put together, and I don't -have- any extra-series data, so I'd say you missed something.
Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious."
Okay, fair enough.
Now, where do I fit a rewatch into my schedule? -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak.
For the record, I did mean to imply "Vash should have shot Legato's left arm, formerly Vash's left arm, off of Legato's shoulder just as Knives did to Vash twenty years ago, thus--presumably--depriving Legato of his telepathic powers, which are identical to Knives' and--presumably--derived from the grafted arm."
...no, that isn't much clearer, is it? n.n; Now, what Vash really REALLY needs to do, as of the end of the series, is come to grips with his own potential. Given the sort of horrific and subtle mental tampering that Knives has been capable of since early childhood, if Vash doesn't want his ETS* to kill again then he has to learn to use that power himself. If only to counter Knives. Hmm... someone needs a teacher... Both of them need a teacher, really. Knives and Vash both have phenomenally skewed views of the human condition thanks to their early exposure to the far ends of its spectrum; granted, like Himura Kenshin, I must say I prefer the "idealistic joke" over reality (and certainly over Knives's outdated, tissue-thin, and completely deranged philosophy). BTW, Offsides, I'm thinking of picking up Trigun manga next time I hit the semi-local Kinokuniya... but for budgetary purposes I'd like to start where the anime ends. Can you be of any help pinpointing the appropriate volume? (I seem to recall at least two series--Trigun and Trigun Maximum...) --Sam Ashley "There'll be no justice of the peace for you, Ottoman--only a big piece of justice!" *Evil Twin, Skippy
For the record, I understood what you were trying for the first time through; I was taking issue with the accuracy of its underlying assumptions, and therefore whether or not it would actually -work-.
(my bet - it'd work temporarily, because I don't think we see any evidence that Legato's pain tolerance is high enough to allow him to work his puppeteer trick after he's been -dismembered-.) Quote:Ahhh. I see where we're diagreeing. I don't think that Knives can puppeteer people the way Legato does. The closest I can remember him coming is forcing the activation of Vash's Angel Arm ten years ago - which, since he built the six-guns, could just as easily be him using a 'backdoor' in -that-. Likewise, way back when on the SEEDS ship, Knives does his manipulation the hard way, rather than just wiggling his brain at them. Beyond the fact that my version closes the loophole we're discussing, it also avoids the question of "If Knives can manipulate people like this, what does he need Legato for?" (beyond being just a sick fuck, which I will admit would be well within the bounds of his character.) since Legato's powers are then inborn, and probably unique. Blessed be. -n =========== =============================================== "V, did you do something foolish?" "Yes, and it was glorious." Quote:Um... why me? I know nothing about Trigun Manga, and have only seen the first 9 eps so far (Bob's disc 1). I know I'm a Josh-of-all-trades, but even I have my limits... I thonk you must be thinking of someone else... Offsides Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large Quote:The scene in July is shown in full as a flashbacks late in the series (beginning of ep18 and first half of ep26). Vash's fate is covered in flashbacks in ep20. Knives's fate is speculation based on his situation during the series (stuck inside the plant). I did use the BESM Trigun books as a source of information, since most of the stuff is spread around the series, they specualte a bit and those are the bits I said weren't definite. D for Drakensis You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
Okay, I guess I just didn't integrate all the information. But I honestly don't remember a scene or scenes where I could infer that Vash lost his arm in July...
(Speaking of which, what happens if someone starts a 13th city? Do they use the Mayan calendar or something?) -- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. Quote:... (scans back up the forum) Damn. How did I see "Trodamus" and interpret it as "Offsides"? Never mind. Well, if Trodamus is reading this, consider that question passed to you... --Sam Ashley "How the hell did I do that?" Quote:*blinks audibly* Vash walks into the Mayor's office in July looking for Rem's last relative. Knives is there, along with the dead Mayor. They talk. Knives shoots. Vash hits the floor in the background; his left arm hits the floor in the FOREGROUND. Then Knives pulls the remote-control Angel Arm bit and July bites the dust. Looked pretty clear to me. (Sorry, but I can't remember which *episode* that flashback was in. I think it was the first scene though.) Quote:"Lousy Smarch weather." --Sam Ashley "It looks like a big piece of candy corn." Quote:Looked to me like the "rape" did not even happen, that Knives had either puppeted Female Crew Member A (can't remember her name just now) to make the accusation or implanted a fake memory in her head. But that's a tough call. Quote:Well, since Knives spent most of the last twenty years stuck in a regen tank, we may presume he needed a mobile agent to go manipulate people for him. Also, two teeps are tougher than one. Besides that, in your version Legato doesn't need Vash's left arm for any purpose other than Knives being, as we both agree, a sick fuck. I can't recall any other characters whose powers aren't based in hard technology. Well, maybe the Cyclops, but her hypnotic eye is a tough call. --Sam "If you're so evil--EAT THIS KITTEN!" Quote:Beginning of Episode 18. Ironically there weren't 12 cities anyway, even before Vash started his inadvertant urban restructuring programme. The impression I get is that the cities named for months are the original settlements, in which case there might be others that never reached the same size. There are other cities which have completely different names but they aren't usually as big or as prosperous."How can I be this kick ass strong?! Powerful! Handsome! Charismatic! Gorgeous! Oh, Gods... Why do you burden me with such a heavy karma!" - Dark Schneider, Bastard!!! #20 D for Drakensis You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
Okay, so I clearly missed an important detail. I wonder if I'd walked out of the room at that point, or if I just spaced... I guess I'll have to rewatch that episode now.
-- Bob --------- Then the horns kicked in... ...and my shoes began to squeak. |
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