[GURPS Fenspace] Building Tips and Hints

[Cobalt Greywalker]

OK, I thought I'd better split this off as a general purpose thread. Hopefully, those of us with far more experience will help those of us (myself included) with little to no experience in putting together characters in the GURPS system.
I personally have a few questions:
1) Is there a list somewhere that contains various Talent and Wildcard Skills packages? I've done some further experimentation in putting A.C.'s stats together and my lists are getting a little long.
2) Are there any advantages, disadvantages, skills, etc that we could put into a sort of Fenspacer racial template or we accept as given in the world?
3) Should we try and put together some advantages, disadvantages, and skills for use in the setting (e.g. an Handwaving skill (IQ/Hard?) or similar?)

[robkelk]

1) I'm not aware of one.

2) Considering the broad cross-section of Fen origins, I'm tempted to say "no". But then I recall that almost everybody in the developed world knows how to use a computer nowadays, so:
Computer Operation/TL8 - IQ [1]
Unless you're an AI or The Professor, in which case:
Computer Operation/TL8^ - IQ [1]

3) We could... but I'm tempted to describe how existing advantages, disadvantages, and skills can be used for the same purpose instead. (For example, handwaving something could be a practical application of Weird Science.) But I'm only one writer...

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

---

1) Is there a list somewhere that contains various Talent and Wildcard Skills packages? I've done some further experimentation in putting A.C.'s stats together and my lists are getting a little long.

---

What's your list look like?
Depending on what you're trying to put together, wildcards could come in handy. I once put together a superscientist character with Engineering! and Science! wildcards because even at the absurd level I put into them (2 or 3 levels over attributes) it was easier & cheaper to do than than go through the entire list of science & engineering skills.

---

2) Are there any advantages, disadvantages, skills, etc that we could put into a sort of Fenspacer racial template or we accept as given in the world?

---

There's probably a small template we could probably put together, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

---

3) Should we try and put together some advantages, disadvantages, and skills for use in the setting (e.g. an Handwaving skill (IQ/Hard?) or similar?)

---

The best way to do it would be to just make it a subset of preexisting skills, like Engineering/TL8^ (Handwavium) or Physics/TL8^ (Handwavium). ---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Cobalt Greywalker]

---

What's your list look like?
Depending on what you're trying to put together, wildcards could come in handy. I once put together a superscientist character with Engineering! and Science! wildcards because even at the absurd level I put into them (2 or 3 levels over attributes) it was easier & cheaper to do than than go through the entire list of science & engineering skills.

---

The Skill list alone is 4 sheets of Lined A4, one skill per line. Roughtly 140 skills total.
Problem is I'm not trying to make the Professor, so I don't NEED all the Science and Engineering skills. But it'd be much cheaper and easier to use Science! & Engineering!. Hence my asking. Should I try and create a new one?
The Advantages take up two pages, and when I finally sort it out the Disadvantages will take up a full page due to split personality. And I haven't started on Techniques, Signature Gear, Specific Powers, or Allies/Contact Groups.

[M Fnord]

---

The Skill list alone is 4 sheets of Lined A4, one skill per line. Roughtly 140 skills total.

---

*blink* Seriously? Damn. How are those grouped, or are you bothering to group them at all?---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

As for new skills, please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm operating from old memory and context), but I support Herr Commisar.
For instance, I do not share the Biomechanics (Handwavium) skill that The Jason has, while he does not have the Materials Engineering (Handwavium) skill that I do..
If I was running a GURPS Fenspace campaign, I would state that any given character had a basic 'Operation - Handwavium' skill, allowing them the intuitive knowledge of quirks and functionality restrictors (that they exist and how they generally work, not any given specific quirk), unless otherwise specified.
If I was running a mixed campaign, I would require Fenspace-Origin characters to be flagged as such, possibly with a zero-cost 'Operation - Handwavium' skill
Consider for clarification, the plight of Little Johnny, dimensional traveller, itinearant scholar. Johnny is an intelligent bloke, but he's never been to Fenspace before, and he happens to (through a series of events best left in the murky darkness which surrounds all hotdog cart accidents) end up attempting to flee from the law in the http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif[/img] gj_troop_carrier">Spaceballs: The Troop Transport.
However, even though he has a nifty black vest on hand, and a hapless passerby to inflict the dog suit upon - he doesn't know to, and doesn't know to ask, so he toodles off at .05c, wasting a perfectly good .025c... Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[M Fnord]

Okay, this is a rough draft using Foxboy's characters as a starting point. Critique away:
Fenspace "Generic Catgirl"
(based off the Felicia template from THS:Changing Times)
112 points
Attribute Modifiers: ST-1 [-10]; DX+3 [60]; HT+1 [10].
Advantages: Acute Hearing +3 [6]; Acute Taste and Smell +2 [4]; Attractive [4]; Catfall [10]; Claws (Sharp Claws) [5]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Flexibility [5]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Perfect Balance [15]; Resistant to Disease (+8) [5]; Teeth (Sharp Teeth) [1].
Disadvantages: Handwavium Biomod [-16](1); Extra Sleep 1 [-2]; Overconfidence (12) [-5].
Features: Transgenic features (cat's eyes and ears; tail on random roll).
(1) Handwavium Biomod (meta-trait): Unusual Biochemistry [-5]; Dependency (random roll food or drink item; very common, weekly) [-10]; Taboo Trait (Genetic Defects) [0]; Sterile(2) [0]; Minor Addiction (random roll food or drink related to but *not* Dependency) [-1].
(2) At least, that's the party line. So far, nobody's reported two biomods trying to reproduce the old-fashioned way....---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

---

(2) At least, that's the party line. So far, nobody's reported two biomods trying to reproduce the old-fashioned way....

---

Like most things in Fenspace, it depends on the intention of the parents. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Feinan]

For using Handwavium, perhaps a general Handwavium skill, with specializations for those who concentrate on a particular type?
I'm also trying to think how to design advantages/disads for handling handwavium. The Jason's technomancy, the Wiccans on Grover's Corners, the Professor's Weird Science - each of these is a specialized way of handling the stuff, which would give at least a plus or two towards the handwavium skill? Perhaps it would be a general advantage with levels (Handwavium Focus, 2 points, 5 points per level?), with the specifics outlined by the player? I'm still trying to familiarize myself with 4th edition - I'm much more used to 3rd - so any help/comments would be appreciated.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

---

*blink* Seriously? Damn. How are those grouped, or are you bothering to group them at all?

---

I haven't grouped them. Yet at least. It's just the basic list of Skills I could reasonably say A.C. had.
To quote from Journeys: "I may be a hyper-intelligent and cunning otherwise fully-functional combat cyborg with supposedly perfect memory Noah, but Im only human. "
Just about anything Attim has be shown to do in the manga A.C. has available to her (even if she doesn't use it). Attim is explicitly stated as being engineered for Hyper-Intelligence, Inquisitivenes, and Cunning. Mix this with a wide-reading gadgeteer Fen with an engineering background, and things get complicated.
In creating her this first time I've made her basic attributes high, so it doesn't take much for her to have useful levels of skills in whatever takes her interest. Yes I'm going to try and trim it down, advantages too.

[robkelk]

---

In creating her this first time I've made her basic attributes high, so it doesn't take much for her to have useful levels of skills in whatever takes her interest. Yes I'm going to try and trim it down, advantages too.

---

Don't forget that a lot of her skills are going to default from her other skills. (For example, if she has Engineering (robotics) - 18, then you don't need to list her Engineering (anything else) - 14 because that's her default.)

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I've just found a list of Talents and Wildcard skills at www.mygurps.com under the GCA Files section. Yes it is a data file, but it's human readable in a text editor (Wordpad works at least).
Also, I found THIS article on it which I think explains Wildcards a bit better than the Characters book.

[robkelk]

---

I've just found a list of Talents and Wildcard skills at www.mygurps.com under the GCA Files section. Yes it is a data file, but it's human readable in a text editor (Wordpad works at least).

---

It's also unofficial, and doesn't include (and may conflict with) what's in GURPS Supers - use at your own risk.

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

I consider Rev. Pee Kitty (the site owner's handle on the sjg forums) to be more official than the official book most of the time.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I've broken out the thread necromancy because I've decided to give this another go and I've run into a problem almost immediatly.

How strong do I make A.C.? The main problem I'm trying to deal with is her weight vs. her mass. How strong does she have to be to even move?

As stated in her profile, A.C. consists of 2.5 metric tones of Handwavium in various states, but only weighs 160kg. (That's 5512lb and 353lb repectively, rounded up to the nearest lb).

Disreguarding spare lifting capacity to do things with, and basic capacity to weight/mass ratios, as I see it I have three options:

1) Give her the strength to move her mass around. Basic lift capacity in lb is ST squared so square route of 5512 is 74.24. Rounding up to ensure capacity equals ST 75.

2) Give her the strength to move her weight around. Square root of 353 is 18.79, thus ST 19.

3) Assume ST 10 is equilvilent to A.C. moving around like a normal human.

In both 2) & 3), I'll have to load A.C. up with Striking ST to aproximate the kenetic energy of her attacks (KE being based on MASS after all).

I'll consider things like the super-effort rules from Supers after I sort this out.

[M Fnord]

How strong do I make A.C.? The main problem I'm trying to deal with is her weight vs. her mass. How strong does she have to be to even move?

Welp, is AC supposed to be super-strong? Unless you've got something planned where she can bench-press cars or twist steel bars into pretzels I'd just jettison some of that fluff, go with an ST in the 11-14 range and let the chips fall where they may.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

Agreed. I just took a look at pages 14-19 of the Basic Set, and nowhere in there do they say anything about a character's mass or weight affecting his ST score. Basic Lift is defined as how much a character can lift above his head in one second. And page 18 says "you never have to take a build-related disadvantage".

I think you can get away with ignoring how much A.C. masses...

Edit: But I've http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=41858]asked on the SJGames forums anyway.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Argh. I was just going to offer an answer, then I realized it was based on 3rd Ed. Revised. Grrr. Gotta go back to the 4th Ed books and reread them again.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Given that I've not seen anything here or on Rob's SJG Forums thread for at least 24 hours, I'll write down my thoughts.

The Basic Set rules do not say anything about added weight relating to strength. Supers p.25 does mention it, but deals with how source modifiers may affect things.

However, while not needed, I'm going to increase A.C.'s base strength to be at least in waving distance of Reality (even if we're waving to it while waterskiing past it towed by a jet powered speedboat). And while it amused me to have a character who had both the Very Beautiful advantage and the Very Fat disadvantage, I think I'll disregard that disadvantage. A -1 point Quirk perhaps?

Anyway, as A.C. weighs about twice as much as a normal person, her base strength should be about twice as much as a normal person. This is ST 14 according to the examples in the Basic Set, so a basic lift capacity of 196lb.

In character concept, A.C. is a Combat cyborg, thus is quite a bit stronger than a normal person (especially given the amount of handwaving going on in the Fenspace universe). I figured that being able to lift 1 and a half times her body weight without problems was a reasonable amount. As stated in her write-up A.C. weighs 160 Kg.

160Kg x 1.5 = 240Kg = 529lb
+ 196lb = 725lb
square root of 725 = 26.93

So ST score of 27. (Yes, I should probably make that 529+96 (extra capacity over ST 10) which is 625. Square root of 625 is 25 exactly. But...)

This gives a Basic Lift of 145.8 (146 rounded up). Which means A.C. can lift Mr. Average (ST 10 average build is 115 - 175lb. 175 -115 = 60. 115 + (60/2) = 145) one handed with almost no effort. This seems to be a very cinematic Cyborg/Assassin Robot thing to do to me, what about you?

However, as A.C. masses 2500Kg which would require ST75 to move I am adding HP to match.

So, 170 points for ST, and 96 points for the +48 HP.

[robkelk]

And while it amused me to have a character who had both the Very Beautiful advantage and the Very Fat disadvantage, I think I'll disregard that disadvantage. A -1 point Quirk perhaps?

I wouldn't worry about it at all. The GURPS Basic Set, page B18, says that a build disadvantage is never required - you're clear to ignore this issue by the rules as written.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Feinan]

Hmmm. Honestly, I'm not sure about the need for such a high strength. Iat think it might be better to set ST 10 to mean that a being can move their body
in a normal fashion, plus the normal rules for that ST. So a combat android might mass 1000 pounds, but could still be only ST 10; it can move its own body,
then any additional weight as a normal ST 10 person. Mind you, I have no idea how this would fit with the 4th edition rules. I'm STILL feeling my way
through those.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

OK, I'm once again performaing thread necromancy. This time because I think I've managed to get a stable set of write ups.

In this case I've got three, where I have built A.C. Pre-accident, A.C. circa 2012, and A.C. circa 2015. I ended up splitting things such that I worked out what the body added (and I basically had to build the damn thing), what the various personalities added, and what A.C. would have gained between the periods.

However, because each is built upon the other I'm posting A.C.'s pre-accident write up to see if anyone spots something or wants clarification on something. That way I can work any changes through what I have.

Oh, and the 2015 write-up won't be posted until I get the story I've been working on in that period sorted and posted.

---

A.C. Peters (Pre accident)

ST: 11 [10]
DX: 11 [20]
IQ: 13 [60]
HT: 10 [0]

Dmg: 1d-1/1d+1
Basic Lift: 24
HP: 11 [0]
Will: 13 [0]
Per: 14 [10]
FP: 10 [0]

Basic Speed: 5.25 [0], Dodge 8
Basic Move: 5 [0]

TOTAL: 100

Advantages

Cultural Familiarity: Western [0], Fenspace [1]
Language: English [Native] [0]
Wealth (Wealthy) [20] [+1 Status]
Independent Income 2 [2]
Reputation +1 (Rock Doc, Everyone x1, on 10 or less x1/2) [2]
Status 1 [0]

Common Sense [10]
Gadgeteer [25]
Gizmos 1 [5]
High Manual Dexterity 2 [10]
Intuition [15]
Talent: Artificer 2 [20], Healer 2 [20] (Total=40)
Versatile [5]
Visualisation [10]

TOTAL: 145

Disadvantages

Code of Honour (Professional) [-10]
Sense of Duty (Friends and Allies) [-5]
Workoholic [-5]

TOTAL: -20

Skills

Bonuses:

Area Knowledge (Fenspace)-13 [1] (IQ)
Computer Hacking/TL8-10 [1] (IQ-3)
Computer Operation/TL8-16 [8] (IQ+3)
Computer Programming/TL8-14 [12] (IQ+1)
Current Affairs/TL8^ (Science & Technology)-13 [1] (IQ)
Driving/TL8^ (Automobile)-12 [4] (DX+1)
Electronics Operation/TL8^ (Comm)-15 [8] (IQ+2), (Scientific)-14 [4] (IQ+1)
Electronics Repair/TL8^ (Computers)-17 [8] (IQ+2+2 Artificer Talent), Scientific-16 [4] (IQ+1+2 Artificer Talent)
Engineer: Robotics/TL8^-19 [20] (IQ+4+2 Artificer Talent)
Environment Suit/TL8^ (Vacc Suit)-12 [4] (DX+1)
Esoteric Medicine/TL8^-16 [4] (Per+2 Healer Talent)
Expert Skill (Cybernetics)-16 [16] (IQ+3)
Finance-11 [1] (IQ-2)
First Aid/TL8-16 [2] (IQ+1+2 Healer Talent)
Machinist/TL8^-16 [4] (IQ+1+2 Artificer Talent)
Mechanic/TL8^ (Robotics)-19 [16] (IQ+4+2 Artificer Talent)
Medicine! (Supers p.37)-15 [24] (IQ+2 Healer Talent)
Merchant-12 [1] (IQ-1)
Navigation/TL8^ (Space)-12 [1] (IQ-1)
Professional Skill/TL8^ (Cyber-technician)-15 [8] (IQ+2)
Research/TL8-15 [8] (IQ+2)
Science!-12 [12] (IQ-1)
Speed Reading-15 [8] (IQ+2)
Weird Science-13 [8] (IQ)

TOTAL: 188

Grand Total: 413

[robkelk]

Per: 14 [10]

5 points, not 10.

Esoteric Medicine/TL8^-16 [4] (Per+2 Healer Talent)
...
First Aid/TL8-16 [2] (IQ+1+2 Healer Talent)
...
Medicine! (Supers p.37)-15 [24] (IQ+2 Healer Talent)

Medicine! includes First Aid and Esoteric Medicine. You save three more points by defaulting the higher skills to the lower (wildcard) skill, like so:

Esoteric Medicine/TL8^-16 [2] (Medicine!+1)
First Aid/TL8-16 [1] (Medicine!+1)

You already have the Healer Talent factored into Medicine!, so you don't need to list it again with Esoteric Medicine or First Aid.

This changes early A.C.'s point total from 413 to 405 without changing his abilities at all.

One more possibility:

Computer Hacking/TL8-10 [1] (IQ-3)
Computer Operation/TL8-16 [8] (IQ+3)
Computer Programming/TL8-14 [12] (IQ+1)
...
Electronics Repair/TL8^ (Computers)-17 [8] (IQ+2+2 Artificer Talent),

You can bundle these skills together under the Computers! wildcard skill (GURPS Supers, pg. 36) and default the Computer Operation, Computer Programming and Electronics Repair skills from the Computers! skill. You'd save one point and pick up a few more skills, including a few related to computer security. But if for some reason you didn't want to have any computer security skills early on, this would be bad.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Per: 14 [10]

5 points, not 10.

See, this is why I posted it, to find little things like this.

Medicine! includes First Aid and Esoteric Medicine. You save three more points by defaulting the higher skills to the lower (wildcard) skill, like so:

Esoteric Medicine/TL8^-16 [2] (Medicine!+1)
First Aid/TL8-16 [1] (Medicine!+1)

You already have the Healer Talent factored into Medicine!, so you don't need to list it again with Esoteric Medicine or First Aid.

Not sure on the math with these.

Esoteric Medicine is Per/Hard, even basing it on Medicine! +1 makes it 8 points not 4.
First Aid is IQ/Easy and as such its still 2 points for +1 based on Medicine!

Am I missing something?

One more possibility:

Computer Hacking/TL8-10 [1] (IQ-3)
Computer Operation/TL8-16 [8] (IQ+3)
Computer Programming/TL8-14 [12] (IQ+1)
...
Electronics Repair/TL8^ (Computers)-17 [8] (IQ+2+2 Artificer Talent),

You can bundle these skills together under the Computers! wildcard skill (GURPS Supers, pg. 36) and default the Computer Operation, Computer Programming and Electronics Repair skills from the Computers! skill. You'd save one point and pick up a few more skills, including a few related to computer security. But if for some reason you didn't want to have any computer security skills early on, this would be bad.

This is one of those things I was trying to make realistic and close-ish to me. (Personally I don't hack as a profession or fiddle with the electronics, but I use computers a LOT and I'm a programmer by trade and teaching. I'd be operating on defaults for most computer security stuff.) Would Artificer Talent actually help on Computers! skill?

[robkelk]

Not sure on the math with these.

Esoteric Medicine is Per/Hard, even basing it on Medicine! +1 makes it 8 points not 4.
First Aid is IQ/Easy and as such its still 2 points for +1 based on Medicine!

Am I missing something?

When you default a skill to another skil, you pay the difference between what it would cost to get the skill at the default level and what it would cost to get the skill at the full level. It's the same idea as when you raise a skill with earned experience.

In this case, A.C has Medicine! at IQ (plus talent bonus), so he has First Aid at IQ (plus talent bonus). It only costs 1 point to raise First Aid from IQ (plus talent bonus) to IQ+1 (plus talent bonus). Similarly, it only costs 2 points to raise Esoteric Medicine from IQ (plus talent bonus) to IQ+1 (plus talent bonus)...

Would Artificer Talent actually help on Computers! skill?

That's a good question... Probably not, so you'd only add it to Computers! when rolling against component skills that it would help.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012