the origin of crime

[Murmur the Fallen]

Re: nitty gritty
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe we should get down to defining some terms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feel free to toss out a starting position for review and discussion - that's what the rest of us do when we want a point settled. If they're discussed and agreed on, then they'll probably end up in the Gazetteer. (If nobody wants to discuss them, then they probably aren't important enough for the Gazetteer.)
[Starting point/speculation/basis for argument: The Articles of Convention, which were at once Constitution and treaty with Earth. As the broad consensus on the governments of Earth, particularly those which have cut off emigration to space, have always seen Fenspace as a monoculture, this strengthens that perception. Particularly as the Cons were touted as being representative of ALL Fen in Fenspace, with the idea being that it is the consent of ALL the governed. Which is everyone in Fenspace. At least that's the idea.
However, many groups, the minority [though how much of one is an open question, as no one has done a full census of Fenspace (right?)] of Fen disagreed with the Articles, either in part or in whole, did not show up to Cons, and did not recognize the authority of Majority Rule. Thus started a wave of counter-Conventions, denouncing the Articles.
This is particularly the case in that before the Articles, it was broadly understood that voluntary citizenship and micronation proliferation were the societal norm. And so micronations which did disagree with the Articles were redesignated as either allied states, neutral states, or rogue or "criminal" organizations, stripped of any recognition by the majority factions.
This criminal appelation was given to those nations which broke the criminal provisions of the articles and/or the human rights provisions. these included those states or post-states which provided unregulated manufactured pharmaceuticals earth-side, engaged in near-earth weapons smuggling, landtheft, etc. etc. (i'd still like to argue for the existence of slavery because it's part of human nature to want to dominate, even when it's just irrational to do so. perhaps especially.) And so the birth of Boskones.
(I think that the political aspect of criminality shouldn't be ignored, nor the economic. Many of the criminal activities done today are done in support of political gain. The Taleban and the Afghani opium fields come easily to mind. So too does the Contras. Fanon and the lumpenproletariat, etc.]
(BTW, and going off on a tangent, why the heck did you post that Sector General writeup to the Gazetteer without taking any of the discussion about it into account? You've essentially built the biggest white elephant in Fenspace by doing that, since it's the only structure that far out... I haven't bothered to add it to the Places in Fenspace sticky because it fails the reality check.)
[anyway, i always saw that gazette entry as being written after OGJ when more infrastructure's in place and more Saturnian and Jovian colonies were getting started. there has to be a certain amount of wastage in both educational and medical facilities.
From a strictly Free Market perspective, it is a massive boondoggle. Probably around the time of OGJ it's little bigger than, say, half a strip mall. If that. And most of that's for docking of ambulences.]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the hegemony of the Conventions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hegemony"? I do not think that word means what you think it means. The Conventions no more have hegemony over the factions than the UN has over the nations of Earth.
(Hegemony: predominance of one country over others by virtue of leadership or influence. Syn: ascendancy)
As for what right they have to do this: "The Convention is Fenspaces great experiment with direct democracy." (This is the very first sentence from the Quick Start Guide entry on Conventions, as you'd already know if you'd read what's already been posted.)
[The majority rule aspect of the convention is a de facto hegemony, particularly as the most populous factions/micronations/states/post-states push their own agendas against the smaller factions/et. al.
also: you should probably get the Quick Start stickied or something as the glossary only says that it's "The closest thing to a government possessed by the Fen. An annual gathering descended directly from WorldCon is held to modify, ratify and reassert what little law exists off-Earth. Furthermore, Conventions can be called by anyone in times of emergency."]
-murmur

[Norgarth]

However, many groups, the minority [though how much of one is an open question, as no one has done a full census of Fenspace (right?)] of Fen disagreed with the Articles, either in part or in whole, did not show up to Cons, and did not recognize the authority of Majority Rule. Thus started a wave of counter-Conventions, denouncing the Articles.
I have to ask, do you any idea what the Articles are ,that this minority you propose are rejecting?
**********
The majority rule aspect of the convention is a de facto hegemony, particularly as the most populous factions/micronations/states/post-states push their own agendas against the smaller factions/et. al.
What? You think evey Trekkie (Warsie, ect) is going to feel/vote the same? This isn't some guy saying "I represent X number of Trekkies so I have X votes, it's each person voting their own mind, either in person or by calling it in. (that's why the vote isn't taken until a few days after the proposals are announced)
You're also forgetting that in fenspace it's not uncommon to 'multiple citizenships'. Just because someone identifies themselves mainly as, say, a Warsie, that doesn't mean they don't also consider themselves a Browncoat/Fiver/Super/Barsoomian/ect. Not to mention the Generalists.
What kind of 'agendas' did you expect the larger fractions to be pushing anyways?__________________
I bet that if you cooked an elephant, you'd have a lot of leftovers.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Murmur the Fallen]

I have to ask, do you any idea what the Articles are ,that this minority you propose are rejecting?
[does it matter what's in the articles? I mean, it's not like we're ever going to get 100% of the people to agree 100% of the time. so whatever's in there probably pissed off enough people to want to break off from orthodox fen society and become boskones. (cf: US articles of confederation and constitution, European Constitution).
what is in the articles? that's up to Commisar Mfnord to decide.]
**********
What? You think evey Trekkie (Warsie, ect) is going to feel/vote the same? This isn't some guy saying "I represent X number of Trekkies so I have X votes, it's each person voting their own mind, either in person or by calling it in. (that's why the vote isn't taken until a few days after the proposals are announced)
[which is why breakaway states, if i may use that term (though it's probably misleading in a post-statist situation), that may come back together again at a later point or not was probably the norm before the Articles of Convention. Then whether a group acknowledged the authority of the articles probably determined the criminality of a group.]
You're also forgetting that in fenspace it's not uncommon to 'multiple citizenships'. Just because someone identifies themselves mainly as, say, a Warsie, that doesn't mean they don't also consider themselves a Browncoat/Fiver/Super/Barsoomian/ect. Not to mention the Generalists.
[hmm. could someone be both a boskone and a warsie?]
What kind of 'agendas' did you expect the larger fractions to be pushing anyways?
[i've got no idea. but factions always have them, whether they know it or not.]
-murmur

[ECSNorway]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the fen "factions" as nation-states argument you seem to be trying to push, here. Certainly there will be some nation-state-equivalents (The Island, Crystal Osaka, Utopia Planitia) that are heavily dominated by one faction or another, but the basic nature of the Convention government would seem to indicate that things are not nearly so monolithic as you appear to believe. --
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[CattyNebulart]

some factions I can see forming a goverment (Trekies, senshi, et), while others I can't (Anarchist, browncoats, etc). Still those are the large groups of people that more or less agree on certain things at least, but I do agree that most of fenspace is going to be induviduals with their own viewpoint, and more chaotic than most because they lack a shared culture (or even language). I'd imagine most of fenspace speaks english, but I'd expect other languages to be present as well. (Japanese forinstance, the only people crazy enough to build a moving scale gundam model without handwavium.)
But they do share the drive to come out to space and they are fen, so there is some shared ground at least.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[M Fnord]

---

what is in the articles? that's up to Commisar Mfnord to decide.

---

Christ, don't say things like that. If you get me working on figuring out the Articles of Convention in detail, I'll disappear into it and you'll never fucking see me again. Not cool. If you want to know the basics of the Articles, here you go:
* Don't kill anyone.
* Don't enslave anyone.
* Don't rape anyone.
* Don't rob anyone.
* Generally, don't be a dick & first do no harm.
That's sort of the core values behind the Convention. Stray away from that, you're an outlaw. Band together with other sociopaths, you're Boskonian. Pretty much how it works.
Anyway.
If you wanted to get absolutely fucking pedantic about it, the Convention isn't a hegemony as much as it is a slowly evolving confederation of microstates. The show is dominated by the Big Six factions (Trekkies, Warsies, Wizards, Fivers, Browncoats & Senshi) who have the population, cultural coherency & economic engines necessary to qualify as nation-states in the eyes of cynical mundanes. After them come the minor factions like the Pulpers, Heinleinians, Supers, etc. as well as very small groups with heavy political or economic juju like the Island crew, Stellvia or the Soviet Air Force.
(As an aside, Greenwood would qualify as a faction like this if the owner/proprietor wasn't an ardent US patriot harboring secret dreams of becoming Governor of the US Lagrange Territory. But I digress.)
The Convention sets the Rule of International Law, which when you've got effective "nations" of one in your confederation is really important. It's based heavily on the laws and ethics of the Big Six (since they've got the people, guns & butter to back it up), which means it's based - by and large - on a somewhat romanticized interpretation of Western liberal law, which (surprise, surprise!) is what most of the people in Fenspace grew up under.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

There is a "Fenspace Constitution" that's a nice weighty document, but..
It only exists to keep "Those poor Earthbound Beurecrats" happy. The living, active, Fenspace Constitution is just that simple.

---

* Don't kill anyone.
* Don't enslave anyone.
* Don't rape anyone.
* Don't rob anyone.
* An it harm none save yourself, do what you will

---

Court in Fenspace is a lot simpler than Earth/U.S.A. You get two parties who are in conflict, they agree on a judge, the judge takes care of the rest. This is slowly creating a 'body of law', which happens to be nowhere near internally coherent, nor does it precisely follow the Paper Constitution...
I think that law and crime in Fenspace is a lot simpler than you'd think. That guy playing his Belter Shatterjam at 130DbM at 3:am local in a Stellvia residential block is not breaking the law - he's breaking Stellvia residential regulations, and is liable for reasonable punishment thereunder. The guy with the 'stinky green asteroid' doing a nice fiscal line in marijuana and tobacco, on the other hand, is breaking no laws at all.
Provide me an example, and I'll be glad to suggest a 'Fenspace Legal Interpertation'Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[robkelk]

---

i'd still like to argue for the existence of slavery because it's part of human nature to want to dominate, even when it's just irrational to do so.

---

I used to work behind the scenes in social work, concentrating on the stuff that falls under the umbrella of "family violence". It eventually bothered me so much that I changed jobs... but I was in for long enough to learn that this is aberrant behaviour, not normal behaviour. It's all-too-common, but it's not how the majority behaves.

---

The majority rule aspect of the convention is a de facto hegemony, particularly as the most populous factions/micronations/states/post-states push their own agendas against the smaller factions/et. al.

---

I'd like to know how they manage this, considering that the single largest "faction" is Unorganized Fandom. Even the Trekkies have to bow before the 40% of Fenspace that doesn't follow any faction - or curry their votes, which rules out "pushing" any agenda.

---

you should probably get the Quick Start stickied or something

---

Ack! It's nowhere near ready for a sticky yet - it's still a work in progress. (However, the Convention part was written by Comrade Fnord, so I'm not messing with that...)

---

This isn't some guy saying "I represent X number of Trekkies so I have X votes, it's each person voting their own mind, either in person or by calling it in.

---

For an example, see "With Liberty and Great Justice...," where it's revealed Noah and Yoriko cancelled out each other's votes at the SOS-Con despite being practically in shared command of a minor faction.

---

You're also forgetting that in fenspace it's not uncommon to 'multiple citizenships'. Just because someone identifies themselves mainly as, say, a Warsie, that doesn't mean they don't also consider themselves a Browncoat/Fiver/Super/Barsoomian/ect. Not to mention the Generalists.

---

Yep. For example, consider R. Yayoi Fujisawa: she's fond of her creator and can't imagine living anywhere other than in his space station (which is for all intents and purposes an independant city-state); the Stellvians have declared her to be their incarnate goddess - she isn't happy about this, but doesn't tell them to cut it out; she considers the factotum of Hephaestus (for all intents and purposes, another independant city-state, which doesn't always agree with her home city-state) to be her third-best friend, and doesn't really care whether Hermes considers their friendship to be that close; and, least importantly, she's a reserve Senshi. (And this is one of the easier cases to diagram out...)
How would Yayoi vote in a Senshi-backed initiative that would disadvantage Noah, or WireGeek, or the Stellvians? (Hint: probably not with the Senshi.)

---

what is in the articles? that's up to Commisar Mfnord to decide.

---

And the rest of us, too...

---

hmm. could someone be both a boskone and a warsie?

---

Why not? I suspect they'd be called "Sith," by the way.
As for other factions:
I've already mentioned a Boskonian Wizard in one of my stories, but didn't come up with the name "Death Eater" until later.
Boskonian Trekkies could be buried inside of Section 31, or calling themselves Section 31 if the actual Trekkie secret service has some other name - either way, they'd likely be planning to attempt a takeover sometime down the line. (Yes, of course the large factions have secret services; they're far too useful against the Boskonians to not have one or more. Heck, Noah's got one, and he runs a small "middle power" in Fenspace.)
As for Fiver Boskonians: "Tell me, what do you want?"
The entry for Military Fen specifically states they can be found on both sides of the conflict.
Boskonina Ninja are particularly reprehensible, in that they're the ones who point out to other Boskonians just which ships are carrying the attractive, fit, agile, teenaged girls... (When Noah was still on staff of Operation Great Justice, he didn't allow these scum to be killed out-of-hand; he gave them back to the Ninja, with proof of their crimes.)
And Boskonian Pirates give the term "pirate" a bad connotation...

---

the Paper Constitution

---

This capitalization of this phrase makes wonder what Fenspace's R.O.D fen are like...

---

That guy playing his Belter Shatterjam at 130DbM at 3:am local in a Stellvia residential block is not breaking the law - he's breaking Stellvia residential regulations, and is liable for reasonable punishment thereunder.

---

Note the phrase "reasonable punishment" - if Noah were to shove this goomba out the nearest airlock without first checking to make sure there was a ship on the other side, Noah would be up on charges. (Mind you, if the goomba was to threaten to kill Yayoi while she escorted him to the nearest airlock, and looked like he could do it, that's another matter... at least, as far as Noah's concerned. Stellvia takes care of its own.)

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Norgarth]

[hmm. could someone be both a boskone and a warsie?]
Yeah, if they focused on elements like the Sith, Empire or Hutts, I could see a Boskonian Warsie.
Trekkie Boskones would presumably focus on Ferrengi, Romulans, that greenskinned race of slavers who's name I'm blanking on, possibly the Borg, the Dominion, the Kazon or any of the other evil/hostile races that showed up in the various series/movies.
One thing I suspect isn't possible is being a Warsie and a Trekkie. __________________
666-HELL The phone number of the Beast
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Ebony]

---

And Boskonian Pirates give the term "pirate" a bad connotation...

---

And Boskonian "Blazers" are ... well, I'm working on that....
I'll give you a hint: it's NOT the Lectroids.Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[classicdrogn]

On three seperate occasions, Wave Convoy has been asjed by Gearheads who pilot Trasformers-badged mecha to join an officially organised Autobot Army as Supreme Commander partly because he's still the closest to living the dream (a couple of AIs have bodies of the same scale and capability, but he's the only one that runs on Energon, came first, and has the body style) and partly because, hey, the Matrix?
The first time, he told them there was no need for any such thing, espescially since one of them was based on Starscream and there was manifestly no Cybertronian Civil War in progress.
The second time, he told them he was too busywith the Gnarlycurl businesses.
The third time was shortly after SOScon, and he told them they'd be better off going as heavy support for ships fielding marines, and that he was going to stay with Gnarlycurl as the defense for its role as a medical and mechanical support ship.
All were valid reasons, but there's one more - he's acutelly aware that even if he tries to play the role, he's no Optimus Prime, and even if (by 2013ish, "now" in story time) he's given up claiming to be Captain Cabin Boy, just the ship's gopher despite being Captain of Record, he's still deathly terrified of getting someone notionally under his command killed. This aspect should show up more in the aftermath/epilogue of the rewrite of SWtA 1a/1b/possibly 1c.
- CD
ETA: RE 'Trekkie' slavers - that would be the Orions, though as I recall the slavers had orange skin and it was the slaves who were green. Orion ships only showed up in TOS a far as I know, and were built with big delta wings and aerodynamic fusilage/tail structures, making them suited for atmospheric operations where the locals hadn't gotten around to a proper orbital starport - and hence well suited for actual Fenspace construction and use by persons desiring to move ship-cargo quantities of people or material. SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
For the next 72 hours, Itachi intoned, I will slap you with this trout. - Spying no Jutsu, chapter 3
"In the futuristic taco bell of the year 20XX, justice wears an aluminum sombrero!"hemlock-martini
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Norgarth]

---

ETA: RE 'Trekkie' slavers - that would be the Orions, though as I recall the slavers had orange skin and it was the slaves who were green. Orion ships only showed up in TOS a far as I know, and were built with big delta wings and aerodynamic fusilage/tail structures, making them suited for atmospheric operations where the locals hadn't gotten around to a proper orbital starport - and hence well suited for actual Fenspace construction and use by persons desiring to move ship-cargo quantities of people or material.

---

yeah that's what I was thinking of. They also showed up in Enterprise (and in that series the males were green as well).__________________
666-HELL The phone number of the Beast
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin