The crime trifecta and fenspace

[Murmur the Fallen]

The crime trifecta, which is to say the three most profitable criminal enterprises, are Guns, Drugs, and Slaves (personally I think that corporate malfeasance should be there as well but it's not sexy as guns, drugs and slaves).
Now how do these three things interact with Fenspace, which is an essentially (because it's unenforcable [until Operation . . . uh something Justice presumably]) lawless area (libertarian, if you're feeling charitable and all-frontiery)?
Presumably this means that the import and export of pharmaceuticals (which includes alcoholic beverages, by the way) both to and within Fenspace would be unregulated and thus not technically illegal. If Chris Rock has taught us nothing, it's that people are geniuses when it comes to finding ways to f*ck themselves up.
So while the export from fenspace to Earth of controlled substances would be monitored, it's almost impossible to control the drug trafficking there.
However, it's also not likely that earth-side cartels would get much more than an initial foothold on the fenspace drug market because of two factors: local chemical manufacturing and distance. Fens would have access to their medical and chemical plants far closer than the poppy fields of afghanistan or the coca fields of columbia. Reverse-engineering the plants and recreating them at home or making new designer drugs shouldn't be all that difficult, particularly as the distance between earth-side supplier and fen customer would make the markup astronomical.
Guns, however, would be a large market for Fens. Because of the censor function of handwavium, weapons (other than their own ships, an argument i have made before) would be initially difficult to get and manufacture fenspace-side. So weapons from earth would be a large import.
Personally I think that the governments which allow handwavium launches would also be the ones which sells most of the guns to the fens in bulk. But I suppose enterprising criminals would also fit in there.
So if drugs, the traditional big-ticket item is out for "boskones" then guns would definately be a money maker.
Finally, slaves. This commodity is something that criminals already have a large infrastructure in place (as well as governments, by the way, cf. uzbekistan) and is something that fenspace does not have. Which is to say a very large pool of desperately poor people. A "surplus population" in the words of dickens.
The trafficking of people from Earth into Fenspace would probably also be a large money-maker for criminal elements in fenspace.
Though it must be stressed that because there is no enforcable law they are not strictly criminals. Except of the moral variety.
-murmur
also: fenspace as tax haven, tax shelter, data haven.

[robkelk]

Wow, where to begin... (At the beginning, I suppose.)

---

(personally I think that corporate malfeasance should be there as well but it's not sexy as guns, drugs and slaves).

---

Add the fact that every business based in Fenspace as of 2012 is privately-owned, and there's no opportunity for "corporate malfeasance".

---

until Operation . . . uh something Justice presumably

---

If you don't even know the name of the biggest single event in the setting, you really need to do some more research before attempting to critique the setting.
(This is where your last critique fell apart before it began, too, Murmur - you haven't bothered to read what's already been written. I'd have thought you'd have learned from that mistake, from the last time you slammed a pie into your own face. The only real reason I bother to reply to your misinformed posts is that it helps me organize my own notes for the Writers' Guides.)

---

However, it's also not likely that earth-side cartels would get much more than an initial foothold on the fenspace drug market because of two factors: local chemical manufacturing and distance.

---

Those are lesser reasons. (And the "distance" reason doesn't wash. Criminals ship qat from the Middle-East to North America in real life. They can ship it to Pluto in the same amount of time in Fenspace.)
The real reason is much more powerful: There's no market.
Consider the personality-type that goes into Fenspace. Now consider the personality-type that becomes addicted to "hard" drugs. Note how little overlap there is between the two.
Yes, there's going to be a market for alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana. Alcohol is trivally easy to make from any starch-based foodstuff. The other two are a bit more difficult to obtain, but hydroponic technology makes this a simple problem to solve. Fenspace has the capability to make their own drugs.
The drug problem in Fenspace, as has already been shown in the original "Plotbunny" thread, is the narcotics traffic from space to Earth.

---

Guns, however, would be a large market for Fens.

---

Here we go again...
I've written at length about this one already. This time, I'll simply cut-and-paste from the existing source material (which you really should have already read before posting something like this, Murmur):
I remember when I first came into space, five years ago. People
laughed at me for including a single defensive turret in my station,
because they thought I'd never have a need to shoot at anybody except
maybe the 'danes. I remember Kandor-con, when Kohran made a mistake
and everybody found out about kaboomite, and as a result my group
became social pariahs for two years. "How dare they commit the sin of
carrying out weapon research?" was one of the milder comments on the
groups and mailing lists at the time.
Now, be honest: is a society that fosters that sort of attitude really interested in obtaining firearms?
(Yes, my character keeps weapons. However, my character is also usually described as "the richest SOB in Fenspace". Most people in Fenspace don't like the way he acts.)

---

Personally I think that the governments which allow handwavium launches would also be the ones which sells most of the guns to the fens in bulk.

---

You don't know much about governments, do you?
(And it's "fen", not "fens". Read the source material.)

---

Finally, slaves. This commodity is something that criminals already have a large infrastructure in place ... and is something that fenspace does not have.

---

For the simple reason that there's neither room nor resources to maintain a slave population.
The average Fenspacer (the unaligned Fen and the Trekkies make up more than half the population) lives in his 'waved car. He's in the driver's seat, his entire wardrobe except for what he's wearing that day is in the trunk, there's a week's worth of groceries completely filling the back seat, and he's got something to keep himself amused in the front passenger seat. Where are you going to put a slave? Where are you going to put the food to keep that slave alive? Even if you figure those out, what is the slave going to do?

Yes, there are slavers in Fenspace. However, their market is on Earth.

---

Though it must be stressed that because there is no enforcable law

---

Since when?
The USCG enforces the law at Tranquility Base. The USAF enforces the law on their station. Noah Scott enforces the laws on his station. I assume Wiregeek and Eric Zhu do the same on their stations. The Trekkies enforce their laws throughout their own settlements, ships, and stations, as do the Warsies, the Senshi, the Potterites, and so on. Conventions set overarching laws that apply to everyone, and those laws are enforced by every faction. And the Erisians were specifically mentioned as being judges and arbitrators long before I started writing any Fenspace stories.
I know I'm asking a lot of you, Murmur, but could you please read what's already been written before attempting to point out shortcomings in the setting?
Edit:

---

also: fenspace as tax haven, tax shelter, data haven

---

None of which are illegal. Certainly, the Swiss banking system may be annoyed about some of their business heading up the gravity gradient, but that's the free market for you...

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Kokuten]

---

I assume Wiregeek and Eric Zhu do the same on their stations.

---

So, I said "I am the law" doing my best early-life-brain-damage-Sylvester-Stallone..
Hermes was the only person there polite enough to even make an attempt to stifle her laughter.
She runs the show, I just set the regs. Call it symbiotic.
I'm originally from Alaska, and further, from a less-urban area of Alaska. I believe that guns are nothing more than tools used to propel small bits of metal very very fast - a projection of force, if you will.
I am very interested in projection of force, and would be foolish/misguided/liberal to deny myself the posession of a firearm... or twenty.
Add onto that that I like guns, for the collector's value, if nothing else, and my father's firearms collection is slated to be shipped to Hephaestus for 'cold storage' in 2011... Since I don't have to worry about natural disasters like floods, hurricanes, or the U.S. Government.

'Light' drug production is a trivial problem. Marijuana, Alcohol, Tobacco, are all basically hydroponic growth items. I do not personally consume marijuana, but a friend of mine, a sweet young geek-ette, does, and thinks that the marijuana room would be a lovely interim solution for oxygen regeneration (provided sufficient filtering, of course), and the sort of light control and gravity control and OMG the possibilities..
Weed's easy. Alcohol doubly so. Tobacco is, perhaps, the most difficult 'light' drug to generate - not to mention to use, as many are VERY tender about their air supply and filtration gear. Most of the problem with tobacco is in the processing of the raw product, and oh hell, I'm going to end up doing the research and probably selling "Lucky Fen" brand smokes, aren't I?
I feel a tech thread coming on!Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[M Fnord]

---

I am very interested in projection of force, and would be foolish/misguided/liberal to deny myself the posession of a firearm... or twenty.

---

I think you need to make the distinction between guns and, well, guns.
Firearms in Fenspace are pretty strictly a niche market. Some factions - the Browncoats being the biggest one, a few of the Mil-SF groups - feel there's enough of a cultural thing involved that they're relatively easy to get in their territory. Most people don't bother, since living space is still mostly in the "shipping containers hooked together with plastic tubing" stage, and only a very small number of firearms have been properly space-proofed (which has to be hardtech, since handwavium doesn't work well with weapons).
Guns in the OP seem to indicate military-spec weapons - heavy assault rifles, grenade launchers, fun shit like that. That stuff is extremely rare - as of 2013 only Boskone and the Great Justice team have milspec hardware in any great numbers, and most of that is homebuilt.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

---

I think you need to make the distinction between guns and, well, guns.

---

Between.. Firearms, and.. Armament?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Ebony]

If Stellvia, Island, Grover's Corners, or other station security actually allow conventional firearms on board openly, I'm very surprised. The average conventional tech pressurized bulkheads are not particularly thick and there are plenty of tubes and conduits that handle electronics, oxygen, and temperature control to be ruptured in a gunfight. Ricochets are also dangerous. I see something of an Old West "No guns beyond this airlock" approach, with plenty of melee weapons and low-velocity ranged weapons like beanbag guns and taser darts.Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[Bob Schroeck]

---

If Stellvia, Island, Grover's Corners, or other station security actually allow conventional firearms on board openly, I'm very surprised.

---

I dunno about anyplace else, but, well...

---

"Wait, wait," Peggy pressed on. "Where are you going, then?"
John turned to look back at here, and one side of his mouth quirked up into a half-smile that in the right light might have been called "evil". "I'm getting the guns out of secure storage." He paused, then added with a bigger smile, "And the Bondo grenades." A moment later the sound of his boots on the stairs down echoed through the control room.

---

(from Disturbing Implications of Land Rising into the Sky). The GC is big, and its hull is handwaved silicates. As the writer's guide(s) note, the handwaved sheet metal and molded plastic which make up most car bodies today become at the very least bullet-proof. Slugthrowers are not a threat to hull integrity in Fenspace.

-- Bob
---------
The Internet Is For Norns.

[Kokuten]

Hephaestian 'glad-lock' velcro-and-visqueen structures (airlocks, tubes, temps, what-have-you) are not bullet-resistant in the slightest, but patching (for low amounts of bullet holes) is a roll of duct-tape away.. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Morganite]

With some things I've heard, one could probably expect a certain amount of demand for other drugs, but probably not enough to generate an actual *market*. At most, it might be enough that someone could hang a story thread on making a run downside to get something for a friend. And as noted before, criminal business is in some ways like any other business, it takes a certain level of demand to be worth doing.
I'd expect there to be a moderate number of people who want to have firearms for one reason or another. Possibly just because of minor paranoia, or because they do business groundside and want to be prepared for anything. (Morgan, at least, falls into both of these categories.) But, again, the demand is probably low enough that people can usually make their own arrangements. Really heavy stuff that would be hard to get might be of rather limited use in the usual conditions anyway...

---

The average Fenspacer (the unaligned Fen and the Trekkies make up more than half the population) lives in his 'waved car. He's in the driver's seat, his entire wardrobe except for what he's wearing that day is in the trunk, there's a week's worth of groceries completely filling the back seat, and he's got something to keep himself amused in the front passenger seat.

---

You know, this might be the thing that I have the hardest time wrapping my mind around in the whole setting. I can't imagine spending so much time in such a small space. Thus why the me in this setting took his house - I can justify him having the house. I cannot justify him having a semi, which is the only other thing I know of with enough room.
And another thing... I'm not entirely certain, but it seems like most stations in fenspace are relatively small. It would probably be kind of hard to hide any sort of criminal operation. The criminal organizations of course have their own installations, but those wouldn't aid them in selling *to* people in space. They're bases of operations for getting things from space to take to earth.
(You know, I bet there's someone whose decided that the best place to make methamphetamines would be in orbit...)
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

[Kokuten]

---

The average Fenspacer (the unaligned Fen and the Trekkies make up more than half the population) lives in his 'waved car

---

I just.. can't see this either.
I _can_ see 'low-rent housing'. Sure, your place is heated by a frigging electric heater, and it's got windows that open _directly to vaccum_, but it's yours..
I think we could write in sufficient residential housing to the Belt, the Island, mostly Mars, though. There, happiness is an air processing plant and a roll of visqueen away.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[M Fnord]

---

Between.. Firearms, and.. Armament?

---

Between, say, Geek's collection of Rifles of the Boxer Rebellion (or whatever) or Grover's Corners' armory of handguns, hunting rifles & shotguns vs. a full kit for a Marine platoon or the heavy artillery bolted to Stellvia.

---

I _can_ see 'low-rent housing'. Sure, your place is heated by a frigging electric heater, and it's got windows that open _directly to vaccum_, but it's yours..

---

The first true entreprenuer in Fenspace was the guy who came up with the idea of 'waving doublewides and shipping them into space. Trailer Parks of the Stars, man.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[classicdrogn]

I kind of figured that the cars were "home," yeah, but mainly only actvely occupied full time whle traveling between places where they get out and do something.
"I," of course, have the opposite problem...
- CDSERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
For the next 72 hours, Itachi intoned, I will slap you with this trout. - Spying no Jutsu, chapter 3
"In the futuristic taco bell of the year 20XX, justice wears an aluminum sombrero!"hemlock-martini
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[robkelk]

---

Most of the problem with tobacco is in the processing of the raw product, and oh hell, I'm going to end up doing the research and probably selling "Lucky Fen" brand smokes, aren't I?

---

Probably...
(Then again, there's the 'daneside suppliers to worry about, too. "I'd drive a parsec for a Camel"...)

---

If Stellvia, Island, Grover's Corners, or other station security actually allow conventional firearms on board openly, I'm very surprised.

---

"Wild West" types who insist on going armed on Stellvia are invited to draw against Yoriko (immediately after she backs up her memories). She turns off her "human-normal" limiters and uses a dartgun for this exercise... and confiscates the weapons from anyone she out-draws. Noah either returns the weapons when the people are ready to leave, or offers to buy them outright. It's amazing how few people try to go armed on Stellvia twice...
(Note: after the beginning of OGJ, this does not apply to Katz. He's proven himself trustworthy, and Noah doesn't want to piss of Trigon.)
(Living out of a car

---

You know, this might be the thing that I have the hardest time wrapping my mind around in the whole setting.

---

Likewise, but I know some people honestly like living this way. (Some people would be happy walking around, with everything they own in a backpack, if only they could walk up the gravity gradient.) On the flip side, Noah can't live that way, either.

---

... or the heavy artillery bolted to Stellvia.

---

Which, I remind everyone again, is made up of one missile turret (with a retro-fitted laser after mid-2012). Okay, it's equiped to fire kaboomite warheads, but it's still only one turret.

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Kokuten]

---

"Wild West" types who insist on going armed on Stellvia are invited to draw against Yoriko

---

When confronted with this policy, I pondered a moment, and surrendered my weapon, _before_ being so invited.
Mama only raised one fool, and he went into advertising. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Murmur the Fallen]

This, unlike my penultimate post [my last post was a glowing recitiation of all I liked about this board which nobody read], was not a critique, merely some thoughts I had on crime and space.
You know, you guys are making it sound like the criminals of Fenspace aren't really all that bad. Kind of like the Sharks and the Jets.
Operation GREAT Justice, right. Not that I didn't know, just couldn't remember it.
Firstly: guns. With all the American, libertarian, survivalist and post-apocalyptic, and military sci-fi fans around, I have a hard time believing that people wouldn't try to weaponize their cars, ships, etc. If you guys say no, okay. But why?
Not even a monoculture is really a monoculture and trying to get even 50% of people to agree on something is like trying to herd cats [not that I've ever herded cats, but I hear that it's hard]. Especially something that is so tied in with ideas of self-defense, self-reliance, the "frontier spirit", etc. etc. [Not really a gun guy so don't know all the arguments for them].
As for drugs, I have comparitively little problem with thinking that there's little DEMAND for them. Although all this talk of 'light' drugs makes me wonder what Nancy Reagan would say, particularly as all the toked-up reefer fiends aren't immediately going straight for a speedball injection in the eye while eating a baby.
[By the way, where would meth fall in this discussion, vis a vis difficulty of manufacture and demand. I would imagine that like other people in high stress situations there'd be an impulse to take stimulants for that added 'edge'. Flying around in space, particularly for long hours, should probably qualify at least some of the time.]
As for slaves and cramped quarters.
Um.
There's, uh, there's more uses for slavery than just as labor. Sad to say.
Anyway, a lot of these thoughts came about from thinking of handwavium as a means for distributed production, a sort of direct form of manufacture. People being both literally and economically the source of capital. As well as thinking about the sheer volume of space in our solar system.
Once again: not a critique, just some thoughts thrown your way to see what comes of it.
-murmur

[Morganite]

Oh, the criminals are certainly bad. They just aren't, for the most part, doing business with the fen.
Guns are something I'd say a respectable number of people want. I just don't think many would have desires that would be that difficult to meet. Also, many are of much more limited use under the conditions in space. The sort of heavier (but still man-portable and -usable) weaponry that gets serious restrictions groundside seems like it wouldn't be so useful most places in space, which often have relatively tight quarters. And most vehicles end up being much tougher than they have any right to be, which makes things difficult in that area as well. (Though I'm not sure the exact parameters were ever defined.)
As for using ships themselves as weapons, I think someone at some point came up with a suitable handwave for why that wouldn't work with speed drives. (At least, it made as much sense as the rest of the setting...)

---

Although all this talk of 'light' drugs makes me wonder what Nancy Reagan would say, particularly as all the toked-up reefer fiends aren't immediately going straight for a speedball injection in the eye while eating a baby.

---

I have no idea what that sentence meant.
Difficulty of manufacture is actually part of why I mentioned meth in my last post. I'm not familiar with the process beyond seeing a list at work of things you should watch for people buying large quantities of... (Well, and a part in a novel where some people were determining how best to blow up a meth lab)... but it seems like there'd be some definate advantages to it. Some of the chemicals are apparently easy to get, and no one would probably care what you wanted them for. Setting up contained environments is pretty easy with handwavium, waste gasses can (if one is suitably clever) be vented into space, no one's going to report you to the police because your house smells bad... and no unusually smart kids are likely to bomb you.
How the neighbors *would* feel if they found out, I don't know. '.'
On the slavery issue, the question would probably again be "How many science fiction fans are likely to both be interested in that sort of thing *and* think they can get away with it?" Personally, I don't think there'd be that many, but it's hard to say for certain.
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

[Norgarth]

speaking of drugs, I wonder what sort of funky shit you would end up if someone used LSD near wavium. __________________
I bet that if you cooked an elephant, you'd have a lot of leftovers.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[robkelk]

---

Firstly: guns. With all the American, libertarian, survivalist and post-apocalyptic, and military sci-fi fans around, I have a hard time believing that people wouldn't try to weaponize their cars, ships, etc. If you guys say no, okay. But why?

---

First off, not everyone in Fenspace is an American. The culture of weapon ownership is substantially different in the US than it is in the rest of the developed world, and that puts a fair bit of peer pressure on the American minority.
Second, there's the logistics element. You can only cram so much into a vehicle, no matter how big it is. Considering that there's no hostile wildlife (except for the American libertarian survivalist post-apocalyptic military sci-fi fans ) and no pre-existing source of food Out There, are you going to pack a chaingun that you'll probably never use or an extra day's worth of groceries that you'll definitely eat?
Third, there's the infamous and oft-cited Kaboomite Incident at Kandor-con. Who wants to be seen as being as big an idiot as the (insert expletive of choice here) who caused that, especially when you may need other people's help just to survive?
There's also the Trekkies' "I will not kill today" mentality, the Barsoomians' "using firearms is cheating" mentality, and so on. Some people just don't want anyone to use ranged weapons, and that ties back into the peer-pressure element I mentioned above.
Put together, this is enough to get people's habits formed in the first half-decade before OGJ, and habits can be very hard to break.

---

Especially something that is so tied in with ideas of self-defense, self-reliance, the "frontier spirit", etc. etc.

---

I think that's the wrong paradigm to go with, at least at the start of Fenspace. (And, as I said above, habits can be very hard to break.)
Instead of the "frontier spirit", consider the "right stuff" - the idea that the brave people who venture into space are able to rely on their own wits and talents instead of depending on the crutch of technology... such as weaponry. The closer you can come to this "ideal", the more "right stuff" you've got.

---

There's, uh, there's more uses for slavery than just as labor. Sad to say.

---

Yes, we know. Check out the background of the crew of the Pinafore for an early example.
But there's the logistics question again. When you don't have very much room to carry around food, are you really going to split your food with someone else? Or are you going to go with those "particular Internet videos" that don't take up space in the car and don't raid your supply of cheezie-poofs at 3 AM? (Those who just can't do without real person-to-person contact often end up patronizing someplace like Candy Apple Red's every now and then, but that's not a slavery situation.)

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

---

As for using ships themselves as weapons, I think someone at some point came up with a suitable handwave for why that wouldn't work with speed drives. (At least, it made as much sense as the rest of the setting...)

---

There's a couple of partial limitations on this.
First, the speed drive slows greatly in atmosphere. Thus, the practical limitations of using a speed-drive ship to hit any place on Earth, Mars, or Venus are at the least difficult to surmount. Especially after 9/11, when many governments are willing to order a fighter jet to ram a passenger jet if that saves the lives of more people on the ground than it takes in the two aircraft.
Second, there's the Slapstick Effect - the 'wave "doesn't like" being used as a weapon. While nobody's tried as far as we know, there's the nagging question as to whether this effect would prevent a 'waved ship from doing damage to something filled with people.
Third, there's the goodwill of the Fen. Both Rockhounds and Stellvia have taken measures to ensure asteroids don't hit Earth; there's no reason to believe they'd do any differently if the impactor was a fenship instead of a rock.

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Kokuten]

---

Although all this talk of 'light' drugs makes me wonder what Nancy Reagan would say, particularly as all the toked-up reefer fiends aren't immediately going straight for a speedball injection in the eye while eating a baby.

---

A little bit on this - Nancy Reagan was a moron, wife of Ronald Reagan, and had a strong 'just say no' platform regarding drug use - all drugs. A big plank in her platform was the 'gateway drug' theory, which states that 'light' drugs are going to lead to harder drug use, which is inherently flawed.
reminds me of a bit of rhyme I can't remember where I heard:
A girl that will chew gum will dance, a girl that will dance will smoke cigarettes, and a girl that will smoke cigarettes will do anything!Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Murmur the Fallen]

Maybe we should get down to defining some terms.
In the context of Fenspace, what does "Crime" mean? Crimes against the state, against nature, against "morality?"
What exactly constitutes crime? How are the laws that the criminals are breaking codified, enforced, disseminated and adjudicated? What are the degrees of criminality? What are its benefits and its downsides?
Further, by what right does the hegemony of the Conventions have to make laws and define criminals?

-murmur

[robkelk]

---

Maybe we should get down to defining some terms.

---

Feel free to toss out a starting position for review and discussion - that's what the rest of us do when we want a point settled. If they're discussed and agreed on, then they'll probably end up in the Gazetteer. (If nobody wants to discuss them, then they probably aren't important enough for the Gazetteer.)
(BTW, and going off on a tangent, why the heck did you post that Sector General writeup to the Gazetteer without taking any of the discussion about it into account? You've essentially built the biggest white elephant in Fenspace by doing that, since it's the only structure that far out... I haven't bothered to add it to the Places in Fenspace sticky because it fails the reality check.)

---

the hegemony of the Conventions

---

"Hegemony"? I do not think that word means what you think it means. The Conventions no more have hegemony over the factions than the UN has over the nations of Earth.
(Hegemony: predominance of one country over others by virtue of leadership or influence. Syn: ascendancy)
As for what right they have to do this: "The Convention is Fenspaces great experiment with direct democracy." (This is the very first sentence from the Quick Start Guide entry on Conventions, as you'd already know if you'd read what's already been posted.)

-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012