[OOC] Judgement Call Needed

[M Fnord]

The explanation for handwavium is, for me, a sideline caused by late-night thinking and runaway ideas. I don't see a compelling *reason* to let that become canon, I just thought it was neat.

---

This would merely be another bit of ammunition to remove Haruhi from command of OGJ, on the grounds that she's insane. After all, The Jason doesn't think that he's Son Goku, so biomodding into an anime character doesn't force you to believe you're that anime character. "Suzumiya-san", whoever she originally was, has obviously gone 'round the bend.

---

Which is the core problem with the "cat out of bag" scenario; even if it's true, there's no way to really prove it, at least not to the satisfaction of the people who've been burned. And in order for a new status quo to stabilize we need to reestablish trust between Haruhi and the major players.
Or we could just cut her & the SOS-dan out of the loop altogether, but I honestly don't know if the group wants that.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

---

Or we could just cut her & the SOS-dan out of the loop altogether, but I honestly don't know if the group wants that.

---

I don't mind a Haruhi character in Fenspace; I'm just not fond of her actually being Haruhi. (Just like I'm not fond of the 999's Matel actually being Matel.) If you see what I mean...

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

---

I don't mind a Haruhi character in Fenspace; I'm just not fond of her actually being Haruhi.

---

0
I understand where you're coming from, and frankly I agree to an extent, but... well, we're kinda running out of maneuver room here. At this point in "For Liberty" we're committed to letting the cat out of the bag one way or the other.
So far, I've got three options for proceeding from here:
Option A: Retcon "For Liberty & Great Justice" entirely. This is the simplest of the options, as it returns us to the status quo.
Option B: Continue with "For Liberty" and go with the revelation that Haruhi is Haruhi, using one of the ideas generated upthread or something similar, and wing ti from there.
Option C: Continue with "For Liberty" and go with the revelation that Haruhi is a deluded cosplayer, and then wing it from there.
If anybody's got an Option D (and up) or has strong feelings about one of those three, speak up.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Kokuten]

In-character, I'm starting to yearn for the ever attractive Option Fuck You - kill everybody involved and start from _there_.
I'm just sayin, having a newsgroup dry up like that is hella irritating, especially when you've just found out that you've Been A Fool - with caps and everything.

Personally, back out of character, I'm of three minds about the subject - it really is a trinary set, but if we go with either B or C (not fond of retcons here), we've still got the "What Next" problem. Do we kick Haruhi out on her tuchus? Do we care if she runs the universe, used to, or doesn't?
Hell, we're Fen. If she reboots the universe, or has the capability to, so what? There are other worlds than these.

So yah, corner. No retcons IMO. Could go either way on the Haruhi question, so long as she is not _currently_ the Universal Focus. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Foxboy]

**Presuming "Haruhi" is biomodded fen**
So do we have our Kyon on finding this out ask "Haruhi:"
"Are you still in there, *insert gender-neutral Japanese given name here*?"
Because after all, if you have a friend suddenly transform into a powerful enough "weirdness magnet" to influence the biomods of folks who were going for something COMPLETELY different...
So our Yuki Nagato might have been going for a Millefeuil from Galaxy Angel or Faye Valentine. Itsuki could have been going for just about any white-haired anime bishonen. And poor Mikuru was going for something completely opposite what she got. Thus making the self-consciousness a natural outgrowth of the change.
And of course "Haruhi's" strange attractor convinced these folks that she'd been transformed in toto to the character as portrayed. and if they transformed early enough into the history of 'wavium, they could easily believe that "Haruhi" was responsible for it all. They might even have been a quiet Japanese contemporary of "THAT Con."
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[robkelk]

I don't mind the "With Liberty..." thread being retconned, if that's the way people want to go. (I wouldn't be really happy about it, but I wouldn't mind.)
I'd rather go with Foxboy's idea, though - it's very much in line with what I'd been thinking all along.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[KJ]

*brainstorm, not sure if it fits to other people's ideas*
Wasn't there speculation about an overfan at some point, someone responsible for the goop? What if the SOS-dan weren't biomodded fen but from-scratch creations (ala Yayoi and the rest of the Stellvia crew) made by this unknown person, with delusions of that not being true.
IE, they're convinced that they are the characters; Haruhi thinks that she was the cause of handwavium coming about (one iteration or another about turning off the god-powers) and all the rest. Up until someone figures out that they're not, and presumably are acting as diversions away from the real creator of the goop.
Random thought anyway.

[Ebony]

Not a bad idea. An alternate idea is that they are the first folks biomodded, either through the purposeful actions of the "overfan," by accident (through their actions, or the overfan's, or both), or because they stole the goop from the overfan and scattered it among the fen (a la Prometheus or Raven stealing fire from the gods and being marked/punished for it). With the latter motivation, the Boskonians could be attempts by the overfan to reclaim/retrieve the 'wavium, or contain the damage while he/she develops a Plan B.
Of course, this (and KJ's suggestion) merely removes the question of Haruhi's origin and brings up questions of the overfan's motives, sanity, etc., so it may not make our situation any easier.Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[KJ]

Well yeah, but we're not in the midst of arguing the overfan's prosecution of a war and whatnot.

[Valles]

Apologies to Fnord and others mentioned; probably this scene will need to be gone over at least once by everyone concerned.

---

The reactions to Suzumiya's statement varied. Noah Scott looked... not terrified, but definitely disturbed. Katz leaned back in his chair with a dubious look on his face. Natalie Baker stared for a moment or two, then grinned and let her breath out in relief. Koizumi Itsuki was, for once, completely deprived of his customary aplomb, and sat there with his eyes glazed over and a dumb look on his face.
Nagato blinked.
"You're completely insane," Malcalypse Fnord told her in a voice that seemed like a great deal of emotion had been leeched from it.
"Prove it," Haruhi fired back with a grin.
"A coincidental biomod does not make yo-" he began to roar, then cut his words off with a furious glare as his opposite number talked right over him without a hitch.
"Yuki-chan, could you demonstrate?"
{SQL commands typed backwards go here, but the author doesn't know squat about it, so}
There was a collective intake of breath as the walls dissolved.

---

...and I didn't get as far as I meant to. Bah. Anyway, a point Natalie is going to be making when the option comes up is that the chicken-and-egg question about the SOS-dan and TMoHS is actually irrelevant. They exist, they exist in a certain way, and they have the abilities attributed to them. Whether Haruhi just made the anime to fuck with people's heads for shits and grins or molded herself into the image it presented so well that things started to get dragged in behind her doesn't matter, because yelling 'This isn't real! You're crazy!' isn't going to make Yuki, Asahina, or any of Itsumi's thousands of associates go away.
Oh, and, if someone accuses her of being a spy for the mundanes, her response will be a bright smile and the words, "Yes. And?"

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[robkelk]

---

There was a collective intake of breath as the walls dissolved.

---

I'll tell everyone right now: if this becomes canon, then I'm out. That isn't what I thought Fenspace was, and I don't want to write stories in that universe. We've agreed to this matter being Canonical Doubt; having the doubt dispelled breaks our agreement as writers.
(takes a deep breath; counts to ten; exhales)
Right now, the question posed by "With Liberty..." is whether the rugged individualists that make up the movers and shakers of Fenspace trust Haruhi. Resolving that question does not require addressing the nature of Haruhi in-setting. Here's one way to resolve the question:
The bug managed to transmit two sentences before it was destroyed:
"Haruhi, another group of Fen just announced that they're not going to follow your orders any more."
"That's just as I planned it, Yuki-chan!"
When I typed up the report, I had to wonder whether she really meant that or was just trying to save face in front of her subordinates.
It's neat, it's simple, and it doesn't require anyone to say what Haruhi is or isn't. More importantly, it's in the spirit of Fenspace, in that it's handwaving the problem away.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[KJ]

---

I'll tell everyone right now: if this becomes canon, then I'm out. That isn't what I thought Fenspace was, and I don't want to write stories in that universe. We've agreed to this matter being Canonical Doubt; having the doubt dispelled breaks our agreement as writers.

---

Yeah, uh... while I'm a huge giant MoHS fanboy, and she (in some form) is a character here, I'm pretty darned sure this isn't a MoHS fanfic universe. The way I see it, it remains in doubt or it's confirmed they're not precisely who they say they are. Confirming they are the actual characters from the show sorta breaks the setting.

[robkelk]

Okay, I've calmed down.
Here's another option:

---

There was a collective intake of breath as the walls dissolved.

---

Noah was the first to react. "Who the hell spiked the water with LSD?"

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

For the moment I'm not going to get into the Haruhi debate, but I just have to address this:

---

Oh, and, if someone accuses her of being a spy for the mundanes, her response will be a bright smile and the words, "Yes. And?"

---

You do realize that the next words out of the accuser's mouth would involve "security," "arrest," and "espionage charges" yes? I mean, there are poorly-judged statements and then there's admitting you're a spy in public...---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Valles]

---

You do realize that the next words out of the accuser's mouth would involve "security," "arrest," and "espionage charges" yes? I mean, there are poorly-judged statements and then there's admitting you're a spy in public...

---

For who? Against who? With what authority?
For all that, though, you're probably right about the practical aspects of the thing, but...
...this way's funnier.
Ja, -n

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[Morganite]

There's another option that I can think of.
If people making the connection between Haruhi and Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is causing problems... just retcon the part where AAA recommends looking up that series and anything that proceeds from that.
Personally I kind of like this option, just because I don't think going down that path (whether Haruhi is real or not) is likely to make things more interesting, but I like other stuff from that thread. Of course, it's a bit messy in implementation, but you can't have everything...
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

[Valles]

And I just realized that the entire point of what I was trying to say in that little storybit post seems to have been missed.
Lemme try again, using Yuki as an example.
Nagato's having the powers she 'should' doesn't prove a damn thing. Handwavium regularly does things that involve far greater waiving of the laws of reality. For that matter, it has done things more difficult than reaching out and creating the DITEs just as an extension of her from halfway across the galaxy.
And the Japanese government has records of someone with her name, face, fingerprints and DNA. That person has a life - a real one, a history, people who know her ...well, as well as anyone does... going back all through her supposed life. She has parents, a family.
...but faking all of that would be within the DITEs' described abilities.
Nobody knows when the real first appearance of handwavium was - well, unless Haruhi is exactly who she thinks she is - so who's to say that the espers weren't just the first biomods, before the wave started acting... weird.
The only thing this does is make it so that we are quite a bit more clearly and precisely ignorant than we were before.
Ja, -n

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[M Fnord]

---

The only thing this does is make it so that we are quite a bit more clearly and precisely ignorant than we were before.

---

Except that it establishes The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and related materials as real.
It's not an in-story issue as much as it is a meta issue. There is a vocal minority (which could be a majority; it's hard to tell because NONE OF THE REST OF YOU BASTARDS ARE WILLING TO SAY ANYTHING! TALK, YOU FUCKERS! TALK!!!)
*ahem*
As I was saying, there are people in the discussion who see this turn of events as turning Fenspace into Haruhi fanfic, and they don't want to do Haruhi fanfic. This nice, elaborate bit of justification for the storybit doesn't solve that problem.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Foxboy]

Y'know... we need a catherder in Fenspace ... stat.
I think a lot of the problems we're having stem more from Rugged Individualists rather than Possibly Real MetaFictive Entities.
Seriously. It DOESN'T matter whether ANY of the SOS-dan are real, since the real problem is an IC Haruhi pushing all of the buttons for our more paranoid fen.
I think another idea for a "Haruhi-like" line would be "Hey! You're getting angst in my Space Opera! Stop it!"
Let the Boskonians themselves and their Shadowy Benefactor cause the grief if possible. We may be fixating on Haruhi because nobody's written any high-level Boskone viewpoint.
--apologies for midnight disjointedness--
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

---

Let the Boskonians themselves and their Shadowy Benefactor cause the grief if possible. We may be fixating on Haruhi because nobody's written any high-level Boskone viewpoint.

---

A hand emerged from the shadows which cloaked the throne. "Kill them," the sepulchral voice intoned.

---

There. How's that?

-- Bob
---------
The Internet Is For Norns.

[robkelk]

---

And I just realized that the entire point of what I was trying to say in that little storybit post seems to have been missed.

---

I think I got your point; I just disagree with it.
You appear to be proposing that either our Haruhi and company are the Haruhi and company, or the handwavium went so far out of the bounds we agreed to (no time-travel, no ESP, no superpowers, no Hogging All The Good Stuff, etc.) that our Haruhi and company are indistinguishable from the Haruhi and company.
Either way, that turns Fenspace into a MoHS fanfic, and some of us don't want to write MoHS fanfic. That's the point I'm trying to make that you appear to be missing.

Edit: And I realize that some people do want to write MoHS fanfic. We could pull a "Schrodinger's Cat" here and have two Fenspaces, one where Haruhi's Haruhi and there's no Noah Scott or Avril Arrow, and the other where Haruhi's a biomodded fan and there's a Noah and an Avril... but the logistics for that may be somewhat daunting.

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Valles]

Ah, okay. We're assuming differently about whether or not the question of the cause of these characters being as they are is relevant to the definition of fanfic.
Overall, I guess I can respect it. But without the anchoring starting point of at least a canon, things become much less interesting for me. I won't storm out in a huff if that happens - that feels like blackmail to me - but the end effect will probably be about the same.
*shrug* Might be better if I did, anyway - I seem to be moving at cross purposes from most of our existing threads.
Ja, -n

===============================================
"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

[M Fnord]

Catching up on multiple things here...

---

Seriously. It DOESN'T matter whether ANY of the SOS-dan are real, since the real problem is an IC Haruhi pushing all of the buttons for our more paranoid fen.

---

There's two disputes here, an IC and an OOC. The IC one is what happens when you get too many alpha personalities trying to work together in too small a conceptual space. I'm content to let that one play out as it will. The OOC dispute is on the "reality" of the SOS-dan, because however we end up ruling on it will affect Fenspace from this point out.
As far as solutions go, I'm leaning towards Morgan's limited retcon idea, since that would allow us to keep the IC conflict in "For Liberty" running while preserving the ambiguity on the Haruhi question. I'd much prefer to maintain that staus quo unless the consensus says otherwise.
If the consensus says otherwise, I prefer the idea of Haruhi being a creation of the Overfan. It maintains the core mystery of the setting (Who is the Overfan? Why did he create the SOS-dan? What is Haruhi going to do to him when she catches the bastard? Stay Tuned, True Believers!) while allowing the MoHS characters to remain true(er) to themselves.
In the meantime, we need a consensus. Otherwise, I'll just decide by fiat and you all can be pissed at me. Which is, after all, sort of what I'm here for.

---

A hand emerged from the shadows which cloaked the throne. "Kill them," the sepulchral voice intoned.

---

Dr. Claw!
(Sorry, had to get that out of my system.)

---

We could pull a "Schrodinger's Cat" here and have two Fenspaces, one where Haruhi's Haruhi and there's no Noah Scott or Avril Arrow, and the other where Haruhi's a biomodded fan and there's a Noah and an Avril... but the logistics for that may be somewhat daunting.

---

If this was DC Comics - and I could afford to pay you people to do this - I'd have no problem setting up a Crisis on Multiple Fenspaces. In this case... yeah, not seeing it.

---

Overall, I guess I can respect it. But without the anchoring starting point of at least a canon, things become much less interesting for me. I won't storm out in a huff if that happens - that feels like blackmail to me - but the end effect will probably be about the same.
*shrug* Might be better if I did, anyway - I seem to be moving at cross purposes from most of our existing threads.

---

On my part, I guess I'm a little puzzled as to why you need the anchor point, and I'm also a little curious as to what purposes you're crossing. Aside from the Haruhi thing, I haven't seen anything that crosses the established storylines...---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[M Fnord]

Okay. So, should I take it that your silence on the subject means you want me to make a decision for y'all? Speak up soon, or forever hold your peace.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

I think I've made my opinion eminently clear...

-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012