Secondary biomodding...opinions?

[Feinan]

I have this idea in my head, and wanted to get it out - that, and I wanted to see what people thought of it.

Current standards with handwavium is one biomod only, and as a general limit that's a good thing. However, I imagine the Jason is tinkering with finding
ways around this; it would be far too helpful in his profession to be able to keep changing things. I think I might have an idea for how to do it, but I wanted
to see what people thought. As is, it's safest for plants. The Jason wouldn't want to use it on a person unless it was a life-or-death situation, such
as a critically-injured, already-biomodded person. In fact, this would probably be the one way that people would find out the Jason HAD figured something out.

As to the idea...cells are most vulnerable to being affected by outside influences when they're undergoing mitosis/meiosis. That's why radiation
therapy works, in general terms. The cancer cells are undergoing uncontrolled rapid reproduction, and thus are more likely to be affected by the radiation than
normal, healthy cells, since more of the cancer cells will be in the vulnerable stage at any given moment. Given that premise...I wondered what would happen if
you sped up the cells that are handwaved. In other words, use the Expresso strain of handwavium to metabolically supercharge handwaved cells...and then hit
them with another dose of guacamole, or honey, or whatever you want to try. Again, this would put a fair amount of stress on a body, which is why the Jason
wouldn't want to use it on a person unless necessary. But for his usual plant-based mods, it would be highly useful. In fact, if people are Ok with it,
I'd like to say that he was tinkering/experimenting with such on Yggdrasil. I'd like to use the idea to explain some of her more interesting
quirks, and why she's a bit different from the others of her type. So...thoughts?

*grin* If people like the idea, I might have the Jason actually carry around a small vial of an expresso/golden apple cider mix. Emergency medicine at its
finest. Probably the vilest combination of tastes you could imagine, but if you're dying, beggars can't be choosers. I leave that idea open in case
anybody ever wants to use it in a story, if the board agrees on this and wants the knowledge to eventually get out.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

ARGH, I knew I should have written this down fully.

OK, A.C. has something like this she's been working on (and my current plans have it being announced at the end of SerenityCon, after all the excitement),
but her's actually RESTARTS the biomodification proccess. By SerenityCon she'd have managed to essentially multiply biomod a tree. However, the stress
on the system is so great that extreme life support is needed.

It's based off the idea that biomods continue to support themselves (for things like healing), and as such produce quiescent and active handwavium from
their dormant supply to maintain the biomod. A.C.'s procedure is to extract some of this 'maintenance' handwavium, grow it up to trigger levels,
mix it with plain handwavium then flush the modies body with it.

Needles to say, A.C. wasn't exactly in a good frame of mind when this idea came to her (see the story Paving the road to Hell).

(I've bounced this around backstage with Fnord with no complaints as of yet. Probably because of how difficult it is and because it technically doen't
give the recipient a second mod, just changes the existing one.)

[Foxboy]

So instead of additive Biomods, we'd be going with something akin to the WildCards novels' "Typhoid Croyd" ability to infect existing
Jokers/Aces and force them to "redraw."

"Well, Mister Dobbs," *whitenoise* said, "there is a chance we could help you." *Whitenoise* raised a hand, forestalling the
neo-catgirl's blind leap. "However, there's a chance you'd stay female, and, no matter how the procedure turned out, you would still be
biomodded to a point that the 'Danes would consider you a Bioweapon. There's also the chance that nothing will happen at all and you'll spend the
next seven hours getting the gunk out of your hair."
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[kentmagus]

My first thought is no way. One biomod per noun.

My second thought is okay. so if one changes the existing biomod, that's still one biomod.

My third thought is what's to keep a person from changing biomods all the time? Should it be kept? Somebody's going to try to duplicate that trick.
It's too useful, even if it's only for plants.

[Bob Schroeck]

Maybe it's a case of diminishing returns -- with every change the effectiveness of the biomod decays, until it breaks in some unpleasant, probably fatal, way. (It's got to be unpleasant, or people will adapt it into a cure for catgirling or something.)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LynnInDenver]

How about each such successful attempt (and many unsuccessful ones) increase the number and severity of irritating and obvious quirks with one's biomod?
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Maybe it's a case of diminishing returns -- with every change the effectiveness of the biomod decays, until it breaks in some unpleasant, probably fatal, way. (It's got to be unpleasant, or people will adapt it into a cure for catgirling or something.)

ARGH again! Damnit!

OK Everyone, I'm bouncing an idea off Fnord backstage RIGHT NOW concerning these possibilities. I'll see if he has any objections to what's proposed as a basis for further discussion.

[Feinan]

Oh, the way that I was viewing it, pleasant would NOT be the way I'd describe it. Remember, I'm using a fair amount of Expresso in the mix. Enough to
force a RAPID biomod, if it goes through. We're talking something that normally takes a day (at least from what's been done in a lot of the stories)
down to maybe 15 MINUTES. This is not for fun...or for the faint of heart. Anyone wanting to do it on a whim, or simply because they didn't get the best
biomod the first time around...well, the Jason would probably be telling them off, quite firmly. Best case scenario would be to administer the stuff with life
support and an IV drip of something to supply nutrients/energy. Of course, in a life-or-death situation, often you can't get that soon enough. So,
we're talking a person probably burning through ALL of their fat reserves, and even eating into muscle mass in order to drive the change through this
rapidly. You might even get a biomod that gives a body a bit smaller than the old one, just to get enough energy to drive it through. Even in the best case
scenario, you're putting an enormous strain on the system. We're talking the entire body going rigid/back bowed, muscles/other stuff writhing visibly
under the skin....it should scare spectators white, folks. Watching even a normal human biomod - especially the more extreme ones - probably isn't pretty.
Now speed the whole thing up....

And yes, there could also be a case of diminishing returns as well. Only....I'd say that the effectiveness doesn't decay. I would say that the stress
on the system increases, instead. Or even accelerated aging - perhaps you start to lose years off your life from it, every time through, as well as the stress.
The long term effects of exposure to Expresso have yet to be determined after all, especially in humans. The Jason was only exposed once, and that was only a
few drops. He's probably been following the effects on plants, but there's a big difference between them and human reactions.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

OK. The following are a couple of excepts from something I was slowly working on for posting after SerenityCon, and is set after the end of OGJ. Fnord has looked them over and he hasn't found problems with what I'm about to post (other bits included? Yeah there were problems).

Remember, The following have been designed to NOT break the setting and leave as much open as possible. How effective I've been is up to you.

---

...
However, you're probably thinking about the latest in the realm of Biomods.

The first of these is the recently named Biomolding process. Based on detailed examinations of the infamous Catgirling Machine, this allows the victims of that device to change their appearances to something more comfortable. Interestingly, the biomolding process allows multiple moldings of a subject. This means subjects of this and its parent machine are not technically biomods anymore. It's still very rough tech and there aren't many around, so don't get your hopes up.
There are of course downsides. The first and most important is that, baring the capture of Dr. Asmodeus Grey or a very good medical complete with 3D-imaging scan and a DNA sample, there is no way to return to a pre-molded state. Second, once your biomolded, that's it. You have too much wave in you to be anything else, and if you aren't careful with the framework you'll lose any abilities (biomod or not) you have. Third, every biomold result has a homeostasis effect. While this means that (baring a rapidly fatal or a brain injury) they'll heal rapidly and completely, any change to the body form will regenerate (including lost limbs). So, cybertech enhancement of biomolds is out for the moment. Fourth, the unfortunate discovery of the Heinrick limit when Jules Heinrick died attempting to remold himself two months after he last did it. Currently, the limit is set at three months between biomoldings. Anyone assisting in a remold of someone under this limit is currently to be charged with being an accessory to murder, and any survivors will be charged with attempted murder.

...

The second development in Biomods is the Re-modding process developed by your beautiful but long-suffering narrator. This process allows one to restart the morphogenetic process that is a biomodification. Normally, this will add an extension to the abilities granted by the original biomod or be a removal of various quirks.
The problem with this is that it requires extensive medical assistance for the subject to even survive the initial 24 hour period after initiation of the remod. And without extensive experience with biomods, the result will normally be an exaggeration of both the benefits and downsides of the original biomod. And while you could remove all a previous biomod's effects, it doesn't remove a biomod itself (might make it easier for surgery though).
Needless to say, re-modding is very much a new development so this is still an 'if all else fails' only treatment for the moment, much as I wish by the Nine Rings of Betazed it wasn't. Same penalties as for irresponsible remolding apply.
...

---

There are lots of other things still needing work, but it's supposed to be a short tech report of the State of the Kludge mid 2014 done by A.C.

Comments?

[Feinan]

Hmm. I'm not exactly sure what I think of the biomolding bit. It seems to make controllable biomodding a bit too easy, even if it's limited in scope by
the availability of the machines...and the people capable of running them. As a one-shot with the Catgirling machine it wasn't so bad, especially if the
machine was near impossible to duplicate, but in larger scale, I'm not as sure.

Re-modding, I have far fewer problems with, especially if it stays more a tweaking of an existing biomod. In fact, the process that the Jason worked out could
definitely be considered a type of it, though approaching the process from a different viewpoint than A.C. His version might be more survivable since one of
the two strains of handwavium that he's using is from his golden apples, something he designed to make a person healthy...on the other hand, it's
probably a bit more quirky because of that same strain (there's a reason that the apples have the word kallisti on them, after all). Even if
it's slightly less deadly, it would still be nasty - even more so, probably, given the metabolic supercharge the person is undergoing to get the process
kick-started. And I definitely agree - other than using in his plant biomodding, the Jason would consider the use on humans as a strictly 'if we don't
do SOMEthing, the person is going to die' sort of thing (the image I had for a scene where the Jason might use it was an accident in a loading dock, where
a new worker found out that 'low gravity' does not correspond to 'low mass' when shifting freight, and got an arm or a leg crushed/mangled
badly).

Oh - for tweaking....what would you think of going between different versions of an archetype? This isn't a definite, just something to toss around. You
can't tweak a dogboy into a catboy, for instance, but maybe from a German Shepherd dogboy to a beagle type. Or a Tolkien-based elf to a Pini-elf. The
biomod is still something of the base concept - dogboy, elf - just different visions of the concept. Too extreme, do you think? Or interesting?

[kentmagus]

Biomolding sounds like adding a second biomod rather than changing an existing one.

Cybertech enhancement-graft reinforced skeleton on biomold watch it heal over. Regeneration, barring any fatal injury or instant death. Hi, Wolverine.

Catgirling-could be a cure if they want to risk death, changing into something even less useful, or losing years off their life. There's always stuff in
Fenspace to get over those limits.

It'd be interesting to see someone whose handwavium enhancement is to remod or biomold themself over and over again without the Heinrick limit.

3D Imaging and DNA sample-I can just see the government lining up every high official for one of these in case some enterprising handwaver decides to
administer biomolding without their knowledge.

[Foxboy]

A thought: Could our "Re-modding" tech come about from handwaving the Squidleighs' medical hardtech?

Thus making the early version quirky in a whole new way... Say our first catgirl volunteer wound up a catgirl... with extra tentacles?

Just the thought of 'waving the Squidleighs' hardtech in general can allow for a SCARY technical progress boom even worse than the 'Wave itself...
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

That raises an interesting question, probably best pursued in its own thread -- is there a tech level above which handwavium simply gives up and says, "I
can't improve this"? Or is it an eternal progression, always capable of uplifting any tech into something that is ultratech relative to it?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[kentmagus]

Applying handwavium to things depends on thought. There's always something humans think can be improved.

[Feinan]

*nods* I'd have to say that we probably won't see the limit to handwavium any time soon. If it's tech-based at all, it's so far advanced that a
lot of the stuff from the GURPS Ultratech would look like kiddy-toys. And kentmagus probably has the right of it as well. There's always SOMEthing that can
be improved. Smaller, faster....more memory. We have the handwavium. Let's use it! Muahahaha!

*ahem* Sorry. My mad tendencies sometime get away from me.

[Bob Schroeck]

Okay, project for the Professor: handwaving handwavium.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Okay, project for the Professor: handwaving handwavium.

Technically Bob, this happens ALL THE TIME. How else do we get the different strains of the stuff?

[Bob Schroeck]

That's aspecting it for specific purposes. Not what I had in mind, no...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

... Daaaaammnnn.

You know how Benjamin does not scare easily with The Professor and his experiments?

Well, Congrats Bob, 'cause that would do it. O_O;;

[Ebony]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

Okay, project for the Professor: handwaving handwavium.

"What's going to happen, Professor?"

"Well, according to my calculations, there's a 47.87% chance that the handwavium will be refined into something exponentially more powerful, and a
48.23% chance that it will cause a chain reaction that will collapse the Universe in on itself. Give or take 3%"

"So ... six of one, half dozen of the other?"

"Exactly!" The Professor pulled his goggles down over his eyes and grinned a grin so wide that it looked like his head might fall off.
"Let's DO THIS!!"
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."