[ART][META] Flag Sketchdump - discussion, argument & flan

[M Fnord]

Moved this one from both LJ and the meta thread in order to promote discussion w/o derailing. --Mal

---

First on our tour is the flag of the Fenspace Convention, the half-UN, half-Confederation of North America metagovernment of the greater Solar System:


This one's still a work in progress; I have an idea of where I want to go with it, but at this point it's still a little muddled. The five stripes symbolize the five major settled areas in Fenspace (from left to right): Venus, Luna/cislunar, Mars, the Main Belt and Jupiter. As colorstripe flags go, it's pretty solid. Still, I keep thinking it needs something. What, I have no idea. I put together an alternate version here,


which looks a little better, but... yeah. Still lacking something. Suggestions are welcome.

Following up on this, we have a few flags representing the Nonaligned Fen. The nonaligneds make up a voting majority of the people in Fenspace, but because of their unorganized nature they don't really have the star power that the other fen factions can bring to bear. There are a few One-Worlder movements where the larger nonaligned populations live, though.

The first one, and the one most likely to succeed, is the Republic of Luna:


Unlike Venus or Jupiter, the Moon isn't claimed by a single faction. The lunar colonies are generally controlled by minor factions (such as the Supers in Kandor City) or fendanes (in Port Luna). The idea of pooling resources to present a strictly Lunar view to the Convention as a whole is compelling; as Luna is the largest population sink in Fenspace and will be for some time to come, that would catapult them from a gaggle of minor factions to the big dog. Still, even minor factions are loath to give up autonomy, and so the Republic of Luna remains a pipe-dream. The flag does come out every now and then at astroball games, though.

Next up is the Free Mars flag:


Mars is always a contentious place. Unlike Luna, Mars is the home base of the biggest single faction in the Convention (the Trekkies) and most of the other majors have a significant colonial presence in the area. However, there is still a significant nonaligned and fendane population, especially in the Port Lowell and Port Phobos area. Partisans of an independent Martian government fly the Free Mars flag as part of the long struggle to not let the factions walk over them politically. The struggle continues.

Design notes: The current pan-Martian flag on the wiki is the old RGB flag the Mars Society is so fond of. I started out trying to acknowledge that in the flag design, with a red-green-blue cross motif, but in the final analysis it just looked awful, so I went with the pinstripe version you see here. No real idea what it's supposed to symbolize, but a voice in the back of my head calls it the "St. Marvin's Cross," so make of that what you will.

The youngest of these One-World movements is the Cislunar Federation Association:


Fueled by the potential of large space colonies, the CFA would like to band all the nonaligned space stations at the Lagrange points together in harmony. So far, they aren't working out so well; though there are rumors that Greenwood Unltd. might take the CFA flag as their own should the petition for Greenwood to join the United States as a territory go through.

Design notes: The design here is pretty simple, alternating blue and green stripes on black, meant to evoke the feeling of an O'Neill cylinder colony. Simple yet effective, IMO.

Browncoat flag redesign snipped. Maybe we'll do that next time.

---

And some answers to questions asked in the meta thread:

That "Free Mars" flag is much better than the RGB flag, which doesn't conform to heraldry and thus is difficult to make out at a distance. ("St. Marvin's Cross," eh? Does that include any Illudium Pu-36 in the design?)

I dunno, the RGB tricolor has a certain appeal to it - easy to make for one thing - and most flags don't adhere strictly to the rules of heraldry anyway. Still, it's not all that interesting as a flag, which is what prompted me to tinker with it.

(It's the same problem I have with the Convention flag, but nnngh.)

Anybody involved with this group ask whether the Grover's Corners folks want to be part of something that big, or whether the Warsies are willing to give up control of New Yavin, or whether Noah's willing to let someone else set rules for Stellvia? Because if you don't have the three biggest stations on-side, you're fighting an uphill battle...

Well, tbh the CFA types are looking more towards the future, when nonaligneds and/or fendanes rule the roost in the cislunar. The CFA is banking on the construction & settling of a bunch of High Frontier-style orbitals, which could boost the local population by a few hundred thousand easily *and* probably wouldn't have any direct ties to the major factions. It's a gamble and as you said an uphill battle, but it might work out for them.

Or not. That's what we get to decide, after all.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

Anybody involved with this group ask whether the Grover's Corners folks want to be part of something that big, or whether the Warsies are willing to give up control of New Yavin, or whether Noah's willing to let someone else set rules for Stellvia? Because if you don't have the three biggest stations on-side, you're fighting an uphill battle...

Well, tbh the CFA types are looking more towards the future, when nonaligneds and/or fendanes rule the roost in the cislunar. The CFA is banking on the construction & settling of a bunch of High Frontier-style orbitals, which could boost the local population by a few hundred thousand easily *and* probably wouldn't have any direct ties to the major factions. It's a gamble and as you said an uphill battle, but it might work out for them.

Uh-huh. Well, that's part of what Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 is for...

Or not. That's what we get to decide, after all.

In which case Contingency Plan #3 can stay on the shelf.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Uh-huh. Well, that's part of what Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 is for...

*shrug* If Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 involves "HEGEMONY OVER L5 FOREVER AND EVER RAR RAR" then, well, it's pretty much doomed even before it gets out of the box. Things change and if Stellvia can't keep up then it can join Acme Buggy-Whips, Inc. in the great dustbin of history. Change or die.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[robkelk]

Uh-huh. Well, that's part of what Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 is for...

*shrug* If Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 involves "HEGEMONY OVER L5 FOREVER AND EVER RAR RAR" then, well, it's pretty much doomed even before it gets out of the box.

Oh, like Noah wants that headache...

Things change and if Stellvia can't keep up then it can join Acme Buggy-Whips, Inc. in the great dustbin of history. Change or die.

No, Stellvia Contingency Plan #3 involves something redacted from the Whole Fenspace Catalog, combined with a quote from Lazarus Long. It's definitely a change - the plan's pissing off Chris Marsden is a (happy?) side-effect. And if implemented, it'll completely invalidate Reflections of an Immortal.

(That should be enough clues for any entity stable at the first level of stress...)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

robkelk wrote:

---

Anybody involved with this group ask whether the Grover's Corners folks want to be part of something that big,

The good people of Our Town would be quite leery of such an organization unless the benefits clearly outweighed the negatives.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Proginoskes]

I'm sorry, but not only is "Cislunar Federation Association" needlessly redundant (unless it's an association of cislunar federations?), but whenever I see "CFA" I can't help but read it as "Confederate Freespacers' Alliance". I like the flag itself, though a black field isn't often seen on flags.

Anyways, I thought the Fenspace Convention already had a flag.

[ECSNorway]

Greenwood's relationship with the US Federal Government is ... convoluted, to say the least.

Marsden clearly considers it to be subordinate to the US Constitution.
However, he's had his disagreements with every administration he's lived under. (Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush....)
Still, to quote him, "Government isn't about getting what you want all the time. You take the bad with the good. That's part of what freedom's all about. People have the right to be wrong. They have the right to elect someone you yourself may not agree with. That's called democracy."

Of course, its heavy use of Handwavium for various technical purposes is contrary to federal law.
Which, again, Marsden acknowledges. "So is California," he says. "So is Oregon, and New York, and New Mexico, and Illinois, and lots of other places. So-called 'Sanctuary Cities' for illegal immigrants, 'medical marijuana', homosexual marriages, taxing Indian reservations, taxing online purchases from out of state, taxing income of non-resident workers... I could go on. I could name more inflammatory topics. And a lot of us think that some of these ways states break federal law are /good/ things. If you disagreed, you wouldn't be out here."

Is Greenwood Security Services a private military contractor, subject to the laws governing them? The military of a sovereign nation? Or a legitimate militia of a sovereign state, subject to call-up by the federal government in time of war or other national emergency? The question has yet to be raised in any serious forum. No on-the-record comment is known to have been made by US officials on their participation in Operation: Great Justice or other parts of the Boskone War except to thank them (and other Fennish forces) for their support of law and order.

Do Greenwood residents and employees pay US federal income tax? Polls show about one in three do, right now. Rockhounds, Inc., certainly does, including social security taxes on US citizens' wages.

Greenwood currently has no official representation in the United States Congress, but several members have advanced its concerns at various times (most prominently, Zell Miller (D-GA) and Sue Myrick (R-NC).)

As for 'Contingency Plan #3', well, there's always 'Plan B'.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Bob Schroeck]

As for 'Contingency Plan #3', well, there's always 'Plan B'.

I love Plan B! I can see Plan B through my eyelids!
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

As for 'Contingency Plan #3', well, there's always 'Plan B'.

I love Plan B! I can see Plan B through my eyelids!

Well, I'm glad somebody likes Plan B. You guys have fun with it; we'll watch it from over here.

I suppose we should get back to talking about the flags, shouldn't we?

Have I mentioned that I really like the Mars flag?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

It's amazing, the stuff people will latch onto in a post.

For the record, the whole CFA thing is a ex-post-facto justification for the thought "You know what'd be neat? A flag for the cislunar colonies!" and really wasn't all that thought out. So, y'know, that's the scoop.

Anyways, I thought the Fenspace Convention already had a flag.

It does. But frankly, that flag sucks. It's a cheap retread of the UN flag, and I am convinced that both I and Fenspace can do better. Hence the flags in this thread. And on that subject, here's another try at the Convention flag. Last night on IRC I was pissing & moaning about some sort of device that could make the flag look better, and one of my inner circle suggested the Spaceship & Sun device.

So let's get Galactic Empire up in this bitch:


Placement, design, etc. on the Spaceship is still up in the air, as it were, assuming that this passes muster with the consensus. Suggestions are always welcome.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[firvulag]

Thirding or possibly fourthing the love for the Mars flag.  Though I suspect some variants may replace the Mars image with a rust red meatball.  And as for Saint Marvin, as long as the reintegrater is working, he'll be fine.
I like the Spaceship & Sun Fenspace flag better than the plain stripes.  Would a smaller version of the device in the upper left corner work?  I think the current version might be better though.  Maybe some stars (or white dots) scattered in the dark bands at the top and bottom, or would that make it too busy?

--
If a nut positively has to be loosened, the bolt will shear.  And it'll
be a hard-to-obtain size.
    -- Malcolm Ray in ASR

[M Fnord]

Hm. I kind of like the stars effect, but... I dunno, it looks a little busy with the stripes and device already on there.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[firvulag]

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
--
    ...although not as much as the people who had to look at my choice
in ties. My motto is, if their eyes aren't watering at 20 paces, it
isn't garishly loud enough.
    -- Dan Holdsworth

[M Fnord]

Here's a bit of an experiment:


I changed the stripe colors up a little - mostly made 'em a little more high-contrast - and angled the stripes so they're more or less parallel to the Spaceship device. The red stripe might need more tweaking, since that shade is really close to the swoop trail, but otherwise I kinda like it. Thoughts?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Bob Schroeck]

I'll throw another vote behind the Mars flag. The Fenspace flag... eh. Not grabbing me yet. That's not a vote against, btw -- it's an abstention.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[M Fnord]

Since the Mars flag has received universal acclaim from the people checking in, it's replaced the RGB flag on the Wiki. All hail the St. Marvin's Cross.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[ECSNorway]

Saint Marvin's Cross: Thumbs Up.

Spaceship-and-sun: I like the diagonal stripey. Is there a symbolic meaning to each of the colors? There ought to be.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Foxboy]

Each color represents a non-earth zone of human Habitation
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[M Fnord]

The stripes symbolize the major zones/areas of settlement in Fenspace.

Yellow: Venus

White: Luna & cislunar space

Red: Mars

Gray: the Main Belt

Orange: Jupiter
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[ECSNorway]

Cool.

I've been noodling on a corporate logo for Rockhounds, but nothing's come to mind yet. Give me a bit.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[ECSNorway]

Sketch #1b:

(Edit: Replaced with updated sketch)
(Edit edit: Gah! Sketch not want load! What I doing wrong?)
Image direct link: http://i160.photobucket.c...Fu/RockhoundsLogo2-1.jpg
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Black Aeronaut]

Fnord:

New flag with the diagonal stripes looks much better - so much more dynamic that way. I was going to suggest a rising-sunburst design myself to denote how everything still revolves around the life-giving (and sometimes life-taking if you're not careful) sun.

Maybe if you threw in a starburst at the upper corner it would A) provide a nice little bit of that asymetry that flags crave, and B) provide the symbolism I mentioned above.

[robkelk]

Here's a bit of an experiment:


I changed the stripe colors up a little - mostly made 'em a little more high-contrast - and angled the stripes so they're more or less parallel to the Spaceship device. The red stripe might need more tweaking, since that shade is really close to the swoop trail, but otherwise I kinda like it. Thoughts?

Maybe change the swoop trail colour to sky-blue, to symbolize coming from (or leaving) the blue Earth? (Mind you, my colour perception isn't the same as most folks', so this might not look good...)

Since the Mars flag has received universal acclaim from the people checking in, it's replaced the RGB flag on the Wiki. All hail the St. Marvin's Cross.

Oh, goody!
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Maybe if you threw in a starburst at the upper corner it would A) provide a nice little bit of that asymetry that flags crave, and B) provide the symbolism I mentioned above.

Mm, not really seeing it. At this point the flag already has enough stuff on it, adding more would just make it look busy.

Maybe change the swoop trail colour to sky-blue, to symbolize coming from (or leaving) the blue Earth? (Mind you, my colour perception isn't the same as most folks', so this might not look good...)

Something like this?

Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Proginoskes]

OK, I like the UN flag, but I have to concede that the FC flag should be more distinct; the UN-like flag implies that the FC is subordinate to the UN. Of the new flag, I like this most recent revision the best.