[RFC] Wet Navy?

[Black Aeronaut]

It's something that's been rattling around in my brain for a while, and it occured to me to try applying it to the Roughriders.
The idea is this: space-flight capable wet navy assets.  Really, not a new idea.  Fenspace even has one such example in the USS Stingray.  However, it's the scale that makes it quite notable.  That is, one that probably rivals the SDF-1 in sheer tonnage.
First of all, note that this is to be the sole representative of the Roughrider's Wet Navy forces.  As such, firepower available should be roughly equal to that of one or two strike groups and a battalion of marines.  Second, the timeframe for this monster is going to be sometime in the 2020's - by then relations with the major 'Dane-side governments should be good enough to allow a peacekeeping force such as this in international waters and at the beck and call of the UN.
Would there be viable oceans on Mars and Venus at this time?  Or are we still waiting on that?
Other venues could be Alpha-Centauri, moons of New Texas, and pretty much anywhere else you could use and float a wet navy force.
The general layout was inspired by the ill-fated 'super-carrier' from Genocyber - a massive trimaran hulled ship.  (Unfortunately, I'm unable to find an image at this time.)  The forward-center hull is dedicated as a platform for offensive weaponry.  Primarily, two turrets inspired by WWII era battleships, both packing three heavy-calibur rail guns each.  This is primarily a land-attack weapon capable of striking with surgical precision over long range using guided hypersonic projectiles.  Other weapon systems include two 'full-sized' VLS launchers (balistic missile defense, anti-ship, anti-air), four conventional major-calibur gun mounts (mid-range self-defense), and several close-in weapon systems (anti-missile, anti-air).
One further nasty little surprise is the twelve full-size torpedo tubes.  Located below the waterline, they are arranged in a 'broadside' configuration.  Submarine skippers that think they can attack without impunity have another thing coming.
The after hulls are... unique.  Each hull has a flight-deck running it's length.  Either one can be used for rotary-winged or fixed wing craft for redundancy sake.  (I swear to God, with carriers these days it's take one little missile to the flight deck and it's game over...)  Straddling the two hulls is a superstructure that carries the phased array radar system among other fun toys.
Another surprise lies beneath the superstructure - a pair of Tuatha de Dannen-class submarines.  Primarily they are built with amphibious landings in mind, however they can readily repel an attacking submarine.  Or at least scare the holy crud out of them. 
Propulsion is handled through the judicious use of magneto-hydrodynamic drives for seafaring, and ion-drives for spacefaring.  Powerplant is four Roughriders 'candle-stick' reactors (two in each of the aft hulls) providing a classified amount of horsepower.
Speed is about what you might expect - fast for something her size, but still slow relative to smaller ships.  At least, until you kill the 'Full Military Power' governer on this thing and then you'll want to make damn sure your clear of that thing.  Don't expect that to happen very often, though, as it puts a serious strain on the powerplant and drives.  If that ever happens, expect a visit to the shipyards to be soon in coming.

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm... Must think on this...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

I'm honestly a bit confused as to what this scrapheap is going to *fight.* Unless the Vilani Imperium is hiding out there in the back of beyond (which, I admit, I've thought to putting in One Of These Days), there's nobody for at least a thousand light years in any direction, and the bloody thing would overpower any first-world carrier force.

Generally one does not put together a supercarrier unless it is needed or you're a global hegemon with compensation issues and credit to burn (in which case you build eleven). So... whyfor the supercarrier?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Black Aeronaut]

Just a thought that I couldn't quite get rid of, combined with a bit of 'Ain't it cool?' factor.
Now that I am really bothering to think about it, it strikes me as more of something you'd plunk onto some frontier world with warring factions, given its capability of soloing for extended periods of time. You know, someplace where a peacekeeping presence is needed, but you don't want to build a permanent base there. So instead, you build one that is mobile and send it in.

[ECSNorway]

This sounds like the sort of thing Marsden would build for kicks, salt away in his larder for a rainy day, and haul out 20 years later with no explanation whatsoever, when there's some sort of crisis brewing on Earth or the like...
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I think I recall the carrier you're talking about BA, thanks for reminding me were it came from.

I've been trying to talk myself out of TDD class subs for a few Infinties fics, but a Fen outfitted one would be a great bruised Navy ship (Black for space, Blue for saltwater, and Brown for freshwater). Admittedly I'd make them cloakships and outfit them with some heavier space weapons...

Anyway, if you WERE going with a mobile base for peacekeeping I'd drop an Atlantis style cityship on station. 'Course, I'd make it airtight WITHOUT needing an active shield, better point defense, some dedicated air/space/sea support... OK, not exactly the same. I'll try not to think too hard on this.

Wet landings, OTOH, are probably far more common than specific ships. I'd think that's how most of the larger ships would visit Earth these days.

[Black Aeronaut]

Norway, I wouldn't mind if it were a joint project between Ben and Chris. Like with the Village Hidden in Asteroids, the Roughriders home base is in a very large rock (over 100 km in diameter). They definitely have the materials to build a number of ships, even a few that big, without running out for a while.

Cobalt, more than happy to oblige. I just wish I could find a picture of the damn thing.

Really, it doesn't have to be a TDD class... Although if I wanted a larger, stand-alone version I could call it the Blue-6-class. *Evil Grin*

The city-base idea has its merits, but I prefer a platform that has more options for mobility, hence a trimaran form. Like you said, not exactly the same. Something like that strikes me as a more peaceful venture... Something for the HARDES, then?

[Bob Schroeck]

You know, a project like this seems like a natural for some kind of cooperation with the Submariners... especially as they do fenspace operations despite being technically "Earthbound".
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Norgarth]

Sudden thought, The Submariners could fund themselves with deep sea mining of things like Manganese nodules from the ocean floor. Not to mention working with/for scientific research groups like the Soviets do.

They probably get along well with enviromental groups trying to clean up the ocean as well. I could see at least some Submariners clashing with whaling ships though.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[ECSNorway]

BA, we do too many more joint operations, I'm going to have to start asking you to pick up the tab for dinner.

And I -like- the idea of a submersible battlecarrier. Shades of Tessa Testarossa and Full Metal Panic for the sub-fen.

And might be useful for exploring Titan, too... hmm. Marsden may well take an interest or three... yeah, I can see him doing this. You've got Blue-6, I've got Tuatha de Dannan... (the name even fits with some of the bits in Plan B...)
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[M Fnord]

I could see at least some Submariners clashing with whaling ships though.

They could be like Sea Shepherd, only, y'know, *competent.*
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Star Ranger4]

I cannot believe you as an active duty Gunners mate would design such an abortion.

You cant fire the weapons and conduct flight operations simulaniously for one unless your willing to shoot down your own flyers!

Weapons outboard, flight deck along the centerline!

Fer gosh sakes BA, I was a Sonar Tech and even I knew better than that!

Speaking along those lines, though... With a pair of VLS cells per outer hull, you dont need Torp Tubes AS MUCH. ASROC is VLS compatible after all. A standard 3 tube waterline launcher on each outboard hull should be sufficent for anything that actually makes it past the airborne and ASROC ranges
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm... Must think on this...

Then again, it appears other folks have done my thinking for me.

Does this have to be a Roughriders asset, or can it be something that the Submariners came up with? If it's the latter, we could call it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_to_ ... TV_series)]Seaview...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

Rob:
That's what we tend to do around here if someone can't quite make up their mind right away. 
I have no qualms about the Submariners having their own assets.  Hell, given my reconsiderations, they'll most likely be the first, and they'll already have undersea bases to launch from.  That's hella more useful than the behemoth I had in mind.  That, and with a fleet of Blue Six-, TDD-, Seaview-, Seaquest-, and Nautilus-class subs...  That's a force to be reckoned with.
Anywho, we can say that the Roughriders and Chris Marsden contracted out their subs to the people that really knew how to build a kick-ass sub.
Star Ranger:
It's tough to make an all-in-one package like this. Setting the flight deck between two rows of gunnery stations makes for a very wide ship with a very narrow flight deck. That, and you only have one. Two sounds better to me.
Besides, who said that you'd be doing gunops at the same time as flightops? Sure, there'd be planes in the air, but you can bet that the instant they gotta launch or recover someone that they're gonna put all mounts on a safe firing bearing. Common sense applies. (It also makes for a nice weakness in a seemingly all-powerful platform - not exactly Death Star level, but hey...)
As for the torpedoes, VLAs only lift the Mk 46 - a light weight torpedo weighing in at a mere 740 lbs. I know because I help load the suckers every time we get underway. Those things are small fry compared to the Mk 48 torpedoes used by submarines - a 3,900 lb. monster! Mostly we wouldn't expect a Mk 46 to be able to take down a sub, mostly because of range issues - hence why we decided to stick a rocket motor to the ass-end. And even then, it's be difficult to get even a 'soft-kill' on a an adversary sub.
BTW: How hard is it to score a hard kill on modern naval vessels?  Answer: pretty damn hard.  Hard kill means that you've destroyed that asset and there is no hope of it ever becoming a problem again.  That means sinking the ship.  Big Navy once conducted an experiment - they removed the gasket seals off of all the ventilation and door fittings, set material condition Zebra (all doors in all compartments shut, and a good deal of ventilation and plumbing fittings closed), then hit that sucker with a Mk 48.  It didn't sink right away.  So, they hit it with everything else.  Mostly five-inch, and then another Mk 48.  Even then, the ship refused to sink.  Oh, don't get me wrong, she would have eventually gone down, but not before she drifted and became a navigational hazard for other ships.  So, they had to get some SEALS to come in and break her keel in several places with explosive charges to speed things up.
Mounting the ability to launch a Fen equivalent/upgrade to a Mk48 says clearly to other submariners that this ship has the capability to retaliate. With twelve tubes they can do so with definitive overkill.
Fun thought. With Fen comms-tech, think that a sub-surface version of AEGIS is possible? It'd be like the German Wolf Packs all over again. *Evil Grin*
Besides, I forgot to mention one other thing the VLS Launchers would be packing: anti-orbital missiles. Similar to BMD, but longer range to reach orbit and with actual warheads for larger targets... or just making sure that 'near misses' aren't so near. After all, fragmentation's a bitch, especially in orbit.
Fnord:
Hooyah!  I would love to see a group out to actively protect whales that didn't come off looking like a bunch of idiots in bat-boats.  Really, though, a more political solution must be enacted before we can really start treating the whalers of certain countries (ie: Japan) like pirates.
Norway:
What can I say?  I got a share and share alike attitude.  Besides, with everyone else having same/similar hardware it makes inter-factional operations go that much more smoothly.
Also, I feel the scientific approach can be best handled by an Atlantis-style mobile city-base, but a small fleet of submarines would be very-much useful.  Have to be insanely well built, though - liquid methane is not friendly stuff to sail in!
Timote:
Indeed!  The Submariners definitely have access to resources ground-pounders do not have.  I mean, they could even extract gold from salt-water!  How cool is that?  So, they got money, raw materials, and even a stable food supply if you're smart enough... yeah, they got it made.  It won't be long until we start seeing undersea cities.
Bob:
I can see it as it potentially being a 'You scratch our back, we scratch yours' setup.  Being based out in international waters (soon to become territorial waters) they can do remarkable things like building a space-tether to facilitate trade.  After all, Australia can't have the monopoly as the sole trading nation with Fenspace.  (BTW: That could also be a goal of the Solomon Space Agency)  Also, I can only imagine the political uproar that will take place once areas that used to be considered 'International Waters' becomes the territorial waters of nascent undersea nations.  This is where the Fen would be able to help out the most - in making sure nobody starts shooting at people over this matter.

[Star Ranger4]

You've already specified a Tri Hull, BA. That already makes it one wide summbiatch anyway. In addition, there is one other strong agument in favor of my way vs yours... Damage control.

Planes and their gear go BOOM waaaay to well. My way they're inboard and yours their most exposed to enemy fire.

As to the Dinky warhead on the '46... Talk to Kohran. I'm sure she can come up with something that'll give us more umph for the same weight/volume. The problem is that the original designers figured the 46 would ALWAYS track in on the screws and pop the shaft seals, obviously that doesnt happen. However, with a bigger warhead on an otherwise standard weapon we dont have to reprogram the ballistics or anything.

And as for the range, thats why you have ASW helos and vikings covering
the outer approaches.  especially since you did go and specify a flight
deck

Of course, theese sort of design arguments and comprimises explain why so many of the Real Navy's ships are specialists. Better to have 2-3 smaller ships that do their jobs WELL than 1 that does to many things in a half brassed way.  
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Black Aeronaut]

Star - Width versus length. Yes, she does have some significant girth, but she's got the length to go with it.

And the magazines for the guns would be outboard on your design. No matter what you do, you're going to have -something- that goes boom along the skin of the ship.

Hrm... I may concede to a smaller design. Means more room for more munitions.

Although I'll stick to my guns with the ranged weaponry. Better to hit 'em with a long shot than to put a flight crew out there that can get zapped with anti-air.

[Star Ranger4]

Easier to add extra armor to a magazine than to a hanger deck. Its a space thing.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Black Aeronaut]

Flight decks and hangar bays have always been tricky things. Half the time, it isn't even enemy fire that causes a major casualty. The USS Forestall is a prime example.

Carriers have their own hazards to deal with. It is often outweighed, however, by the simple fact that you have a mobile airfield that you can park wherever the water is deep enough to float it. It's all in how the operation is managed.

Anyhow, I don't see armor being an issue. It hardly costs a thing to Fen that have access to the kind of raw materials that the Roughriders do. And a hangar deck can be compartmentalized to minimize damage. It'll have to be, anyways, because this sucker will spend half it's lifetime operating in the black as well.

[Star Ranger4]

Its not the MONETARY cost here. If cost was an issue we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place.

In this case I'm talking about weight/area etc.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Black Aeronaut]

Mass is a good thing to have on your side. Mass means Ramming Speed is not a last-ditch option. Mass means those missiles striking your broadside are doing didley-squat.

And you might be surprised how much heavy metal you can float. The Iowa-class Battle Ships of the US Navy had 16-inch armor. Nothing was gonna get through that except for the 18-inch guns of the Yamato-class. Guess how thick their armor was?

For certain, this means that it's going to be something that is slow to accelerate. Not a major concern, really, with all the weaponry she has to defend herself plus the armor to stop what does get through. The trick is going to be in making the hull flexible enough to bend but not break. This is part of the reason why I went for that trimaran design I saw in Genocyber. It is an articulated trimaran, with the center hull set forward to the two outer hulls.  It'll help eliminate some of the hull stress applied from a sea mine or a torpedo and keep her keels intact.

[M Fnord]

Nothing was gonna get through that except for the 18-inch guns of the Yamato-class. Guess how thick their armor was?

Considering that both Yamato-class ships went to the bottom when finally put into action, I'm gonna guess "not thick enough."
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[ECSNorway]

Both were sunk by carrier aircraft; neither ever directly engaged American battleships.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Black Aeronaut]

Yep. Same for the Bismark. It was always the rudder. One torpedo from unlikely torpedo planes took out the rudders on both the Bismark and the Yamato. From there it just became a matter of attrition from the aircraft.

Not too sure about the exact cause of demise for the Musashi, though I am certain that it was indeed aircraft as well. It's the reason why aircraft carriers feature so prominently in the US Navy these days.

[robkelk]

Not too sure about the exact cause of demise for the Musashi, though I am certain that it was indeed aircraft as well. It's the reason why aircraft carriers feature so prominently in the US Navy these days.

Musashi was indeed sunk by aircraft attacks, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. (I'm not sure whether her rudder was taken out, but in those straits, she didn't have room to maneuver anyway...)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Norgarth]

The Bismark had the added indignity of having it's rudder taken out by obsolete, WW1 era bi-plane torpedo bombers. 8P
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin