[RFC][META][Philosophical] AIs Based on Characters

[robkelk]

Because of http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/topic/7226]the recent heat wave, I haven't been getting as much sleep this week as I usually do. Thus, my heat-addled brain is also mildly sleep-deprived... and that leads me to free-associate quite a bit, but doubt the quality of the conclusions I come up with. So I offer this as something that I ask everyone to poke as many holes in as possible.

---

Aside from the classification systems in http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?titl ... telligence]the FenWiki article, there are two kinds of AIs in Fenspace: the ones who are based on existing fictional characters, and the ones who aren't.

This article isn't about the ones who aren't.

Most of the AIs who are based on existing fictional characters were created that way on purpose - Lebia, Yayoi, Nene, Catty, and many others are in this group. However, some of them weren't - Trigon, Buckaroo, Gina, and Haruka are examples here. Where did the baseline personality and skillset come from for the ones who weren't? (Gina is Gina because Ben was watching Evangelion on the computer he handwaved. But the others don't have that justification... and Gina could just as easily have been Misato, Rei, or Shinji. Likewise, Haruka could have been any of the other Senshi.)

Alternate realities containing people known as fictional characters in Fenspace were proven to exist in mid-2013. Also, part of the deCamp-Pratt hypothesis of multi-world existance (as described in the early "Harold Shea" stories) is that writers subconsciously tap into alternate realities and describe what happens there.

Putting these together...

What if the process of 'waving an AI into existance to be a particular character taps into that multiversal subconscious and copies the skills and personality traits from that character's mind? This would explain why AIs have skills that their parents don't (such as Yayoi's piloting skill and fluency in Japanese), and why they're sometimes not expected (such as Gina and Buckaroo's very existance).

The more work a person puts into getting an AI "just right", the more likely the copy will be from the particular version of the work desired by the person, but there's no guarantee that a particular AI won't be "contaminated" by fanfic (or canon, depending on preferences). Somebody 'waving Akane Tendo into existence after reading fanfic might get a homicidal maniac or Great Detective Akane instead of the "real" Akane. Somebody 'waving Xander Harris into existance might get the Everyman from early Buffy or the Marty Stu from so many Buffyfics.

Given this, what's happening inside the AI's head before he or she "wakes up"? Gina's origin provides a clue here - the AI has knowledge of him-, her-, or itself, but no knowledge of the outside world. This can be traumatic, or it can be forgotten when the AI first gains the ability to communicate with the outside world. If an AI was to retain some of those pre-awakening memories, it might be a very different person than expected...

---

There should be more here - this ends abruptly - but my mind is heat-addled and mildly sleep-deprived... Am I even on the right track here?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

I'd add a reference that some folks insist the de Camp-Pratt theory as belonging to Gardner Fox and *insert first name here* Broome, or Robert Heinlein.

Another point is how long it takes an awakened AI to realize it IS an AI, depending on how its shell is built.

An AI like the Scott Series androids or Karen Sorrel may not immediately know they're artificial on waking. Another point: some of the AIs based on Rampant AIs in fiction, seem to have wound up a little more benevolent than in Canon. For example: GLaDOS from "Portal" is considerably nastier than the Soviet GLaDOS.

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN. Noah's Agatha is more of a jealous snit than actual rampancy.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[robkelk]

Looking at what I wrote before getting a solid eight hours of sleep, I see that this needs a complete re-write for comprehensibility... But Foxboy, at least, was able to pull some meaning out of it so I'll leave what's there up for now.

Another point is how long it takes an awakened AI to realize it IS an AI, depending on how its shell is built.

An AI like the Scott Series androids or Karen Sorrel may not immediately know they're artificial on waking.

Karen definitely didn't; that was made clear in her origin story.

Noah's "angels"... Noah tried to program awareness of being AIs into them before they woke up, but that might not be compatible with the theory I've presented. Must think on that.

Another point: some of the AIs based on Rampant AIs in fiction, seem to have wound up a little more benevolent than in Canon. For example: GLaDOS from "Portal" is considerably nastier than the Soviet GLaDOS.

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN. Noah's Agatha is more of a jealous snit than actual rampancy.

This may be a side-effect of handwavium and the Slapstick Effect.

(And, yes, Agatha is jealous... but it's going to last a lot longer than the average snit.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Minor nit-pick. Lebia wasn't an intentional creation, and A.C. doesn't work that way.

In Universe: With World-As-Myth more or less proved, one theory doing the rounds is that Handwavium is the unintentional 4D extrusion of a 12+D entity (Of course, most who propose it also qualify the theoretical entity as a 4-Omni being, so that puts people off).

Anyway, A.C.'s current loose working theory is pretty much what is discussed above, in that Actualisation of Fictional Characters in Fenspace is dependant on the one doing the 'waving. Limits include the 'waver knowing (however vaguely) about the character (basic appearance, personality, and abilities), the 'waver's wants and needs, how focused the 'waver is on the goal, and how in sync the 'wavium is with the 'waver. Please note that the 'waver's needs are not determined by the 'waver themselves
All this means deliberately Awakening an A.I. with a specific Fictional Character is...problematic. Getting what you want with handwavium is difficult enough. Something as complex as a person? That it succeeds as often as it does is something being pondered.

As to how the newly awakened A.I. realises and deals with being an A.I. depends on the A.I.'s personality. At a guess, the wave doesn't let them go fully insane. Rogue certainly (Trigon), and it certainly helps that everyone who's successfully Awakened A.I.s has thought of them as people, but it seems to prevent them going over the edge (IMO only).

[Bob Schroeck]

a 12+D entity

A minor digression here, just for the sake of verisimilitude -- some months back I came across a video about cosmology on YouTube that said pretty much outright -- with some very elegant graphic visualizations -- that 11 or 12 dimensions (I can't remember which now), is the maximum dimensionality possible in current cosmological schemes, much in the same way that c is the maximum speed in a 4D-spacetime.

That said, I like the idea that handwavium is actually the local expression of an N-dimensional something; assuming you don't mean "entity" in the sense of "living creature", that is. I've been musing on the idea that it was actually part of an extraterrestrial "emergency kit", but there's something definitely appealing about the idea that it spans dimensions all by itself. And won't that make Centrum and Infinity crap their pants...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

Minor nit-pick. Lebia wasn't an intentional creation, and A.C. doesn't work that way.

Thanks. I'll fix that in the re-write.

All this means deliberately Awakening an A.I. with a specific Fictional Character is...problematic. Getting what you want with handwavium is difficult enough. Something as complex as a person? That it succeeds as often as it does is something being pondered.

Which means that Noah's success rate (ten manifesting exactly as desired, Agatha (and Honami, in an alt-story) manifesting almost as desired, the other four not manifesting at all) is phenomenal. This would be his special connection to handwavium (the way "industrial applications" is WireGeek's special connection, or "Mad Science" is the Professor's connection)... and he rarely uses it.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

This article isn't about the ones who aren't.

Actually, it could be - if the pandimensional Jungian subconsciousness can locate a particular fictional character, then it can also locate any other person with particular personality traits and other identifying characteristics.

Maybe there's a R2-G0 somewhere in one of the Star Wars universes, or a cute half-Japanese/half-American tomboy with glasses who goes by the name Eimi somewhere in the multiverse, and the only reason we think Fenspace's R2-G0 and Eimi are original is because nobody's written about their templates.

(And there's a Drunkard's Stagger idea - AI Eimi meets her original somewhere along the Walk, leading to existential angst for either or both... for a few days, then they recover their normal spirits.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Cobalt Greywalker]

A minor digression here, just for the sake of verisimilitude -- some months back I came across a video about cosmology on YouTube that said pretty much outright -- with some very elegant graphic visualizations -- that 11 or 12 dimensions (I can't remember which now), is the maximum dimensionality possible in current cosmological schemes, much in the same way that c is the maximum speed in a 4D-spacetime.

I was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse#M-theory, where the max dimensionality was 11 or 26, depending on the Chirality ("handedness") of the observer.

That said, I like the idea that handwavium is actually the local expression of an N-dimensional something; assuming you don't mean "entity" in the sense of "living creature", that is. I've been musing on the idea that it was actually part of an extraterrestrial "emergency kit", but there's something definitely appealing about the idea that it spans dimensions all by itself. And won't that make Centrum and Infinity crap their pants...

I personally don't mean 'entity' in the 'living creature' sense but some people would, hence the bit about people being put off by that interpretation. I was toying with N-dimensional quantum foam (for lack of a better term), allowing the Observer Effect to be what causes the 'wave to change things.

Which means that Noah's success rate (ten manifesting exactly as desired, Agatha (and Honami, in an alt-story) manifesting almost as desired, the other four not manifesting at all) is phenomenal. This would be his special connection to handwavium (the way "industrial applications" is WireGeek's special connection, or "Mad Science" is the Professor's connection)... and he rarely uses it.

The way I see this is that Noah's focus on the outcome and helping set the scene with accurate representations of the characters in question (in physical characteristics and knowledge) make it easier for the 'wave to get the right 'imprint' as it doesn't also have to do the rest. In essence, Noah's prep work is what allows him to be so successful creating andriods. Similar attention to detail has got favourable results for other people in Fenspace IIRC.

[LynnInDenver]

Maybe there's a R2-G0 somewhere in one of the Star Wars universes, or a cute half-Japanese/half-American tomboy with glasses who goes by the name Eimi somewhere in the multiverse, and the only reason we think Fenspace's R2-G0 and Eimi are original is because nobody's written about their templates.

R2-G0, or 'Geo', actually started as an NPC in a Star Wars campaign I was a player in... he was my character's droid. So you can certainly say that he actually does exist in one of the Star Wars universes.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[M Fnord]

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh hee hee ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Black Aeronaut]

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

 Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh hee hee ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

... Hoo boy, that can't be good.

[M Fnord]

On a less (or maybe more) deliberately freak-people-out note, I'm just going to throw this out into the discussion:

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." --Kurt Vonnegut
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Cobalt Greywalker]

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

 Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh hee hee ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

... Hoo boy, that can't be good.

Some throat lozenges and clean air and he'll be fine.

On a less (or maybe more) deliberately freak-people-out note, I'm just going to throw this out into the discussion:

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." --Kurt Vonnegut

True enough. A.C. deliberately invoked this during the latter stages of the Boskone War to try and sort herself out. A.I. wise I'm not sure how much this applies.

Although it does suggest that it may be a good idea to have a 'So you've just Awakened and an A.I.' book that is given to newly Awakened A.I.s to help them decide how to interact with the physical world.

[Star Ranger4]

We'd have to use the d-jump tech from the classified part of the WFC though. Something like that could only be written correctly by UF-Bacon!
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[robkelk]

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh hee hee ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

GlaDOS, ... No, wait. Sora, the Generalissimo's dosage needs adjusting again...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[firvulag]

Cobalt Greywalker wrote:

---

Although it does suggest that it may be a good idea to have a 'So you've just Awakened and an A.I.' book that is given to newly Awakened A.I.s to help them decide how to interact with the physical world.

I can see a handbook, or the electronic equivalent being helpful for a lot of AIs when they wake up, probably best written by some of the older AIs themselves.  Maybe Buckaroo would be a good driving force behind that.
One thing I would like to ask is, why do all the AIs have to be echo's or instances of characters/people from other universes[0]?  I know transfictionality is an established fact of canon, but why can't Fenspace be the 'origin' universe for some AIs?  
The AI, Aristotle, I made up to keep F in line for the first few seasons isn't intended to be an instance or expy of any fictional character.  And while I have no objections to echoes of her existing across the multiverse, I tend to think of the Fenspace Ari' as the original.  For however much the concept of original is worth in a setting with transfictionality.
[0] Note, I don't think you all are necessarily saying that AIs have to be this way, but I do think it could be interpreted in that manner.
--
Marmite is a black tarry yeast extract used to encourage New Zealand children
to grow large and strong.  The usual method is to feed it to them on toast,
resulting in them growing very quickly, so that they might become big and
strong enough to stop their parents from doing this.      --Rupert Boleyn

[robkelk]

One thing I would like to ask is, why do all the AIs have to be echo's or instances of characters/people from other universes[0]?

They don't. But one part of modern transfictionality theory is that there is no privileged universe (everyone is fictional somewhere in the metaverse), so it's convenient to talk about the matter of duplicates in this way. It isn't necessarily accurate, but it's convenient.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[KJ]

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh hee hee ha ha ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*chokes*  *starts cackling*  Someone had to bring that up, eh?

[Bob Schroeck]

Although it does suggest that it may be a good idea to have a 'So you've just Awakened and an A.I.' book that is given to newly Awakened A.I.s to help them decide how to interact with the physical world.

Credited to Derek Bacon, of course.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Although it does suggest that it may be a good idea to have a 'So you've just Awakened and an A.I.' book that is given to newly Awakened A.I.s to help them decide how to interact with the physical world.

Credited to Derek Bacon, of course.

With accounts of Regina Langley-Rhodes, Columbia, and many others.  Edited by Buckaroo Banzai.

[robkelk]

While I'm bumping old, partially-developed stuff, I may as well bump one for myself...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Well, there are also some fiction-based AI's who don't actually know they're based on fictional characters. I didn't quite think through the implications of that at the time.

Also, from the flipside, do the parents get a booklet too on how to handle their new cyber-child? How do you, as J. Random fen deal with the realisation that the computer you were planning to use as the central processor your life will depend on now has the personality of Kamina? Perhaps despite your best efforts. How do you nurture and develop a being who, by their very nature, is probably tied to a specific cabin or vehicle. How do you drive that vehicle and use it, knowing it's a living creature?

After all, our authors have yet to have any Waved AI go Skynet/HAL/SHODAN.

There're two reasons Jet has never attempted to build anything with an AI. One is a personal philosophical view about putting 'people' in equipment, and the other might have something to do with the calibre of AI produced by Bubblegum crisis.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

Also, from the flipside, do the parents get a booklet too on how to handle their new cyber-child? How do you, as J. Random fen deal with the realisation that the computer you were planning to use as the central processor your life will depend on now has the personality of Kamina? Perhaps despite your best efforts. How do you nurture and develop a being who, by their very nature, is probably tied to a specific cabin or vehicle. How do you drive that vehicle and use it, knowing it's a living creature?

So far, the vehicular-based AIs described fall into three groups:

• non-sophont-type intelligences (e.g. The Boys at Hephaestus)
  
• already-adult-human intelligences
  
• Gina
  

The first group one would treat the same way one treats a favoured pet. The second group one would treat the same way one treats any other adult. The third group... well, Gina can tell you herself how she'd prefer to be treated.

As for an unintentional Awakening... must think on that, too.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

I like the idea that there is some kind of source where AIs (partly) based on some fictional universe draw their skills from.

[Ebony]

I'm basing Buckaroo's mechanics, loosely, after the behavior of the AI described in the book Exegesis by Astro Teller, which I recommend for anyone who wants to do some serious thinking on AIs and how they would perceive the physical world (and the problems with communicating with them). Buckaroo is nowhere near as disconnected from the physical world as Edgar, the AI in the story, but he does have a perception of cyberspace that no meat person can have. The reason he's able to be Buckaroo Banzai, the polymath genius, is because he has access to all the data at much higher access rates than any meat person can have. He does have the intelligence to process the data and make the intuitive leaps of logic required to analyze and synthesize (although he does encourage the Blazers to do this as well), but he doesn't have to memorize it like a meat person would. In a sense, he's a genius, wired into every search engine and library that he can get access to. His personality and general "Buckaroo-ness" come from the materials used by Blackstone to prime the 'wavium, including comics, a copy of the Buckaroo Banzai novelization, and other pulps. Shortly after inception, he accessed all the material on himself and incorporated a lot of it into how he behaves.
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."