[Comment]Spot Cleaning

[HRogge]

Hi Seraviel,

I have read your new wiki entry about Spot Cleaning and I like the concept, but I have two concerns about the timing...

You placed the foundation of "Spot Cleaning Intl" in 2012, which directly corresponds to the launch of the SP Grover's Corners, which triggers a new wave of Anti-Fen paranoia in the USA and a lot of other countries... See Timeline.
In 2012 you would most likely not even be able to get into US airspace with Spot without getting into trouble.

The second concern is about China, which has been described as very hostile to Fen and Handwavium... I doubt they would do business with Fen at all... they even confiscate all waved things inside their borders I think (something I would not like to happen to Spot).

Maybe it would be an idea to restrict "Spot Cleaning" to some "Fen friendly" parts of the world... or move the foundation of this company to a later part of the timeline.

What do you think (both Seraviel and the rest of the forum) ?

[Bob Schroeck]

I've been meaning to mention this for a while, but the constant growth aspect of Spot bothers me. My bit of "Cool" in Fenspace is having the biggest freaking craft in the system. At the projected rate of growth for Spot, it's going to elbow aside my piece of Cool in just a few years. Worse yet, because the growth is apparently unstoppable, Spot will become an unwieldy juggernaut -- and by Infinities time will start having an astronomic size.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[LynnInDenver]

I have suspected there would be a limit, myself... if only because you can't keep feeding mass in to retain that level of growth... especially if you want to retain relations with the neighbors.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Seraviel]

HRogge wrote:

---

Hi Seraviel,
I have read your new wiki entry about Spot Cleaning and I like the concept, but I have two concerns about the timing...
You placed the foundation of "Spot Cleaning Intl" in 2012, which directly corresponds to the launch of the SP Grover's Corners, which triggers a new wave of Anti-Fen paranoia in the USA and a lot of other countries... See Timeline.
In 2012 you would most likely not even be able to get into US airspace with Spot without getting into trouble.

True, but as I've said Spot doesn't deal in the USA, and frankly dislikes even stepping there, as his origin story shows. When he deals with the few US companies he does, it is not in US lands (Mainly in Canada or in the international Seas).

HRogge wrote:

---

The second concern is about China, which has been described as very hostile to Fen and Handwavium... I doubt they would do business with Fen at all... they even confiscate all waved things inside their borders I think (something I would not like to happen to Spot).
Maybe it would be an idea to restrict "Spot Cleaning" to some "Fen friendly" parts of the world... or move the foundation of this company to a later part of the timeline.

This is, however, the first I hear of China being part of those hostile to handwavium (I had thought of them going the exact other way, just to piss off the US). Any article where this is written? I might have missed that one.
It might also be good to create a throughout Fen/earth relations article. Any opinion on that ?

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

I've been meaning to mention this for a while, but the constant growth aspect of Spot bothers me. My bit of "Cool" in Fenspace is having the biggest freaking craft in the system. At the projected rate of growth for Spot, it's going to elbow aside my piece of Cool in just a few years. Worse yet, because the growth is apparently unstoppable, Spot will become an unwieldy juggernaut -- and by Infinities time will start having an astronomic size.

I'm sorry to say, Bob, but by 2014 Spot isn't even the second largest craft in Fenspace. It's third, behind Greenwood and Ki. And Spot won't catch up to Greenwood until 2018 at the earliest.
I personally thought your bit of cool was the largest unreal estate, and the largest natural earth habitat in space. And since the actual used space in Spot is less than a tenth (unless you count parking space, which I don't), you beat Spot by a large margin.
However, I'll bow down to the general opinion if it says to Spot is too much.
Thank you all for the reviews.
P.S. : Spot is already an unwieldy juggernaut by 2014, and the only thing that stops him from a stable orbit is its personality.
-People may die, but ideas are forever. Je suis Charlie.

[M Fnord]

This is, however, the first I hear of China being part of those hostile to handwavium (I had thought of them going the exact other way, just to piss off the US). Any article where this is written? I might have missed that one.

It's referenced directly in a couple of stories... Rock and a Hard Place and SMOFcon Political Roundup are the main ones, and obliquely referenced in other wiki articles. It's one of those things where we decided on it as a background detail a longassed time ago - so everybody 'knew' it but nobody did much with it. Not surprising that you missed it, really.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Seraviel]

This is, however, the first I hear of China being part of those hostile to handwavium (I had thought of them going the exact other way, just to piss off the US). Any article where this is written? I might have missed that one.

It's referenced directly in a couple of stories... Rock and a Hard Place and SMOFcon Political Roundup are the main ones, and obliquely referenced in other wiki articles. It's one of those things where we decided on it as a background detail a longassed time ago - so everybody 'knew' it but nobody did much with it. Not surprising that you missed it, really.

I'll change it for India, then. Any issues with that ?
-People may die, but ideas are forever. Je suis Charlie.

[M Fnord]

No outstanding issues IIRC.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[HRogge]

True, but as I've said Spot doesn't deal in the USA, and frankly dislikes even stepping there, as his origin story shows. When he deals with the few US companies he does, it is not in US lands (Mainly in Canada or in the international Seas).

Okay, I understood the wiki post from you differently.

This is, however, the first I hear of China being part of those hostile to handwavium (I had thought of them going the exact other way, just to piss off the US). Any article where this is written? I might have missed that one.

I remember it from some story, but its hard to track down...

It might also be good to create a throughout Fen/earth relations article. Any opinion on that ?

Yes, that might be a good idea...

I'm sorry to say, Bob, but by 2014 Spot isn't even the second largest craft in Fenspace. It's third, behind Greenwood and Ki. And Spot won't catch up to Greenwood until 2018 at the earliest.
I personally thought your bit of cool was the largest unreal estate, and the largest natural earth habitat in space. And since the actual used space in Spot is less than a tenth (unless you count parking space, which I don't), you beat Spot by a large margin.

However, I'll bow down to the general opinion if it says to Spot is too much.

Maybe this could be a good compromise... Spot is (at least since its birth) constantly growing... by a constant volume per day/month/year (and not by a constant diameter).

This would still fit into Spots story I think, but would not increase the amount of mass cubed by time.

@All: What do you think ?

[robkelk]

HRogge wrote:

---

The second concern is about China, which has been described as very hostile to Fen and Handwavium... I doubt they would do business with Fen at all... they even confiscate all waved things inside their borders I think (something I would not like to happen to Spot).
Maybe it would be an idea to restrict "Spot Cleaning" to some "Fen friendly" parts of the world... or move the foundation of this company to a later part of the timeline.

This is, however, the first I hear of China being part of those hostile to handwavium (I had thought of them going the exact other way, just to piss off the US). Any article where this is written? I might have missed that one.
It might also be good to create a throughout Fen/earth relations article. Any opinion on that ?

That is an excellent idea - I'll throw together a first draft sometime next week. (I'm too busy today to write...)

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

I've been meaning to mention this for a while, but the constant growth aspect of Spot bothers me. My bit of "Cool" in Fenspace is having the biggest freaking craft in the system. At the projected rate of growth for Spot, it's going to elbow aside my piece of Cool in just a few years. Worse yet, because the growth is apparently unstoppable, Spot will become an unwieldy juggernaut -- and by Infinities time will start having an astronomic size.

I'm sorry to say, Bob, but by 2014 Spot isn't even the second largest craft in Fenspace. It's third, behind Greenwood and Ki. And Spot won't catch up to Greenwood until 2018 at the earliest.
I personally thought your bit of cool was the largest unreal estate, and the largest natural earth habitat in space. And since the actual used space in Spot is less than a tenth (unless you count parking space, which I don't), you beat Spot by a large margin.
However, I'll bow down to the general opinion if it says to Spot is too much.
Thank you all for the reviews.
P.S. : Spot is already an unwieldy juggernaut by 2014, and the only thing that stops him from a stable orbit is its personality.

Greenwood, Wonderland, Beta, Nouveau Paris, Babylon .5, Prometheus Forge, Disney's World, and Village of Hidden Asteroid are all asteroid habitats. Ki is a plant, as is Yggdrasil. That leaves Grover's Corners as the largest craft (as opposed to asteroid or lifeform) in Fenspace.

(Tangent: Perhaps the asteroid habitats should be removed from the Spacecraft Registry altogether and added to the Places in Fenspace list if they aren't there already. Opinions, all?)

Something to consider: if Black Spot ends up growing to be as big as Greenwood, and it keeps eating, then the Trekkies are going to want to do something about the "Doomsday Machine" in their midst. (What that "somethng" is, I'm not sure... but I doubt it would be pleasant for Spot.) Perhaps Spot could stop growing before getting that big...?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

(Tangent: Perhaps the asteroid habitats should be removed from the Spacecraft Registry altogether and added to the Places in Fenspace list if they aren't there already. Opinions, all?)

That's not a bad idea. If Consensus goes for it, I'll move everything over.

ETA: In fact, why not move all the space stations over to Places? They are, after all, fixed installations.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Seraviel]

Move Spot also then. He's more of a living place than a spacecraft.
-People may die, but ideas are forever. Je suis Charlie.

[HRogge]

(Tangent: Perhaps the asteroid habitats should be removed from the Spacecraft Registry altogether and added to the Places in Fenspace list if they aren't there already. Opinions, all?)

That's not a bad idea. If Consensus goes for it, I'll move everything over.
ETA: In fact, why not move all the space stations over to Places? They are, after all, fixed installations.

Some of the space stations can move... even some of the asteroid ones...

[LynnInDenver]

Some of the space stations can move... even some of the asteroid ones...

Yes, but some of them do that just because it's more convenient in certain respects. They don't tend to be used as transportation themselves most of the time. Basically, they're like some of the oil rigs out there. Only mobile when you need to move your base of operations, because to do move just the gear and personnel means abandoning the platform itself as no longer useful.
The rest would be movable just for the sake of emergencies. They just didn't have whatever drive system that was used removed when they were 'parked'.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I can see why asteroids and stations should be put in the Places. In fact, a quick look seems to have most of them there already.

The problem comes from the fact a significant proportion are artificial constructs of some kind.

I propose the following definitions:

Spacecraft: An artificial construct of less than 10 km maximum longest dimension containing an vacated volume no less than 15% of total object volume total or 1% singular, and capable of self-movement.
(This allows asteroids like Greenwood and Prometheus Forge to be classified as spacecraft, but stopping places like Deimos from being included due to size. The vacated volume constraint is meant to stop people building large installations on the surface and calling it a craft, as is the self-movement constraint. It does mean I have to get on and put together the story about adding station-holding capability to Prometheus Forge. The gravitational effects of Ki should be enough to cause A.C. to do it.)
Space Vessel: A Spacecraft of whom the primary purpose is transportation.
Space Station: A Spacecraft of whom the primary purpose is not transportation.

Discuss?

Edit: Spellcheck.

[Dartz]

I think it depends more on what the inhabitants want to call their station/asteroid/unreal estate than anything hard and fast. Guidelines are nice, but if there's one constant in Fenspace, it's that someone'll find some way of breaking those guidelines, at both ends of the scale.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

The entire Spacecraft Registry needs an overhaul, IMHO... but we can start with just the biggest structures.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Maybe this could be a good compromise... Spot is (at least since its birth) constantly growing... by a constant volume per day/month/year (and not by a constant diameter).

This would still fit into Spots story I think, but would not increase the amount of mass cubed by time.

@All: What do you think ?

A constant volume works for me. Because as Rob notes, maintaining a constant increase in diameter means a constant geometric increase (as in by the cube) in its intake. Doomsday machine is right.

(Tangent: Perhaps the asteroid habitats should be removed from the Spacecraft Registry altogether and added to the Places in Fenspace list if they aren't there already. Opinions, all?)

Yes, but not en masse -- we need to evaluate these on a case-by-case basis.

I think it depends more on what the inhabitants want to call their station/asteroid/unreal estate than anything hard and fast. Guidelines are nice, but if there's one constant in Fenspace, it's that someone'll find some way of breaking those guidelines, at both ends of the scale.

True, that. Besides, I can't see the Fen getting too nitpicky about craft classifications. They're probably general guidelines at best, and if someone wants to call his waved Subaru a space station just because it never leaves the parking orbit he put it in back in 2009, well, nothing will come of it but amused looks and some chuckles behind his back.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[HRogge]

Yes, but not en masse -- we need to evaluate these on a case-by-case basis.

Yes...

hard rules are difficult... just because something has "station keeping thrusters", it would not automatically a spacecraft.

[Star Ranger4]

how about classifying that by speed then. Spacecraft have some form of motive power capable of generating an acceleration of greater than 5 meters per second (thats only about 10mph)
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[HRogge]

how about classifying that by speed then. Spacecraft have some form of motive power capable of generating an acceleration of greater than 5 meters per second (thats only about 10mph)

Most vehicles have a maximum speed in Fenspace, not an acceleration (speedy drives).

And the maximum speed is (at the moment) limited by the craft category.

[firvulag]

Technically speed drives are limited by the vehicle's mass, but since we also classify ships by their mass it amounts to the same thing.

[Star Ranger4]

point of order, even if it IS a speed drive, you'd still be able to move faster than the rather pokey 5 mps even if your measuring top speed rather than acutal accelleration.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Norgarth]

As I recall, I stated in Babylon .5's write up that it was technically mobile, it's just _damn_ slow (especially by Fen standards).
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[robkelk]

Technically, all Unreal Estate is mobile - if it wasn't, it would still be on Earth (or Luna, or Mars). However, once they're Up, "station-keeping" and "permanent Hohmann orbit" don't really count... at least, not IMHO.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012