How rich are the Fen?

[Cobalt Greywalker]

This is one of those questions that's been bugging me for a while. It has little story value (Fenspace economics being vastly different from the 'Danelaw), but it could seem interesting from a Fen-Dane interaction perspective.

I initially was thinking more about real estate (or equivalent of) prices, so I went and worked out how much 'land' Ki had. Using what I believe were conservative estimates, I got a figure of 3389 acres for Ki alone (I can share my workings if anyone wants), which is about 2561 American or 1920 Association (Soccer) football fields[1].

Obviously this wasn't quite what I expected.

Next I tried finding some estimates for Asteroid values. Again this wasn't quite what I expected, given the values bandied about. We're talking trillions of dollars for a stereotypical 1km asteroid in materials alone (I'm assuming a metallic asteroid). Eeep.

In terms of personal wealth, I've already given A.C. a value of about AS$6.5 million as of April 2013 in Journeys through tarnished dreams, but that was before things like Cybertech medical trials finishing and civilian wrist-com licensing and other things.

This leaves me stumped as to actual values. Sure I can say A.C.'s very rich and most everyone will agree, but I'd like to know roughly how much.

Any ideas?

[1] Actually a little over in both cases.

[HRogge]

I am not sure how living on a rock in space translates to be rich... the rock has nearly ZERO value unless you can mine it and sell the results.

(edit)

Its even worse, the existence of pirates and Boskones make sure you have to defend your land... so as long you are not really mining, land will cost you money to maintain. On the other side there are many more asteroids than the Fen can ever take, so most of them might have some king of "negative value" for their owners...

[robkelk]

Well, everybody else keeps mentioning how rich Noah is (to the point where almost all his XPs are spent on more levels of Multimillionaire) - but Noah does business with the 'Danelaw on a regular basis.

All the mineral wealth in the world - any world - means nothing if you can't get somebody to buy the minerals from you, and in order to do that, you have to pull them out of the regolith and refine them. How many hard-rock miners are there in Fenspace? Hmmmmm... Rockhounds, much of the Belter faction... minor groups. There might not be the manpower available to turn every Fan with a space rock into a millionaire.

Add in the fact that dumping a large amount of a commodity onto the market will depress the price for that commodity, and one gets a situation where most Fen leave the metals where they are in order to avoid everyone (Fen and 'Dane alike) becoming suddenly less rich.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

I'd rather not put hard figures on things like this, solely from the meta-standpoint that it can get in the way of some good plots and some of the fun for the middle income Fen. I tend to just assume that there's enough money out there to make the plot work provided it isn't absolutely ridiculous. Never let reality get in the way of a good story.

That, and the majority of Fen probably have higher incomes than their earthside counterparts, but at the same time they have much higher outgoings. Food, clothing and other biomass-based products are always going to be more expensive, while some harder stuff like airframes and junk phones and wave-fodder will be cheap as chips. I'd imagine there's a big group of Fen who make their money trading dirtside luxuries that are cheap on the ground, but pricy in Fenspace.... the SS Ciara made most of their cash that way prior to 2012, bringing up bulk loads and running them around the inner system.

The average Fen dropping back dirtside might find themselves suddenly with much higher purchasing power, especially for 'luxuries' like genuine dead-cow steak and Quilted two-ply. The same way a Dodge Challenger in the States costs 33k dollars, while a cheapo 1.5 diesel family MPV costs 33k Euros here. Space is an expensive place to live, and even if you are able to mine 10 million euros worth of ore, you're operating costs are probably going to be something like 9.999 million once you account for plant, fuel, transport, defense, food, water, oxygen, repairs and the like.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[LynnInDenver]

I would say we can, for the most part, ignore the nuts and bolts of how some fen are rich... just that only some of them are, either by luck, or very, very careful management of what they do.

That said, the two biggest wealth generators will be tourism, and importing/exporting/shipping. Anyone who can figure out better ways to ship things back and forth, or how to get tourists to various extraterrestrial destinations, will find it easier to make money.

You can also make some definite money mining, but that's definitely a balancing act between quantity, quality, and not inadvertently collapsing the market when bringing the stuff to it. On that note, most stuff shipped to Earth is likely to be rare minerals that are, pound for pound, tougher to get out of the Earth itself, located in very, very few areas, or just incredibly rare, or even a combination of all three.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

This does make me wonder... How does OGJ operate, financially speaking?

[Dartz]

This does make me wonder... How does OGJ operate, financially speaking?

I'd bet on Prize money, like the old Navy tradition. Bring in something big, all involved get a share of its value when it comes up for sale/scrapping, after it's ceased to be useful as evidence. A chunk goes towards GJ itself, then towards victims/casualties fund, then on down from the mission commander. Taken in hardware, or hard cash.

I doubt OGJ has the cash to actually fund some of the more complex missions, that'd require a pretty large budget and I think it's mentioned somewhere that asset forfeiture is a pretty common punishment since prison space is at a premium.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Star Ranger4]

Asset identification and seisure have been standard tactics of the economic side of such operations for years. no reason for that to change now.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Black Aeronaut]

In that case, the Roughriders would probably be making a pretty good killing in their efforts to clear out the Belt. All those small-time operations tend to add up, and not spacing a crew makes taking prisoners more lucrative - if they're intact enough to be identified, then you can claim their holdings in Fenspace as well. (Wonder if the same applies if they have any Dane-side holdings. *KA-CHING!*)

They'll probably also put a lot more into ECM. To that end, each of their Peacemaker-class ships will have an EW-expert AI on board so they can possibly take down major targets while firing as few shots as possible. The less damage, the better the payout, right?

[Dartz]

I'd imagine it's possible to make a decent living as a troubleshooter/GJ fontliner, especially if you're able to reel in the odd big fish. Jet makes enough prize money to construct and run something like the Highway Star (Hardtech motorsport is not cheap, the best way to get moderately rich doing it is to start filthy rich), and indulge a few hobbies from time to time.

Dane-side holdings are tangled up in legal red tape, and the country involved is going to want to take a bite out of them.... and perhaps the space-side items aswell. That could become something of a sticking point between countries and the convention.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[LynnInDenver]

Dane-side holdings are tangled up in legal red tape, and the country involved is going to want to take a bite out of them.... and perhaps the space-side items aswell. That could become something of a sticking point between countries and the convention.

Possibly not such a big deal with Australia, honestly, the rest of the countries, it likely depends on where their sympathies are that year.
I expect this was certainly a factor with anyone who gave up their United States citizenship, many people probably lost anything they left behind, and continued expectations to pay their income taxes since they weren't technically in a foreign country at first. Complete with regular (read: every year) audits, since every American in Fenspace was technically self-employed, even if they were working for someone else.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[robkelk]

I'd imagine there's a big group of Fen who make their money trading dirtside luxuries that are cheap on the ground, but pricy in Fenspace.... the SS Ciara made most of their cash that way prior to 2012, bringing up bulk loads and running them around the inner system.

Oh, definitely. That's how Noah got started (before the Kaboomite Incident), and Hermes Universal Delieries still uses that business model.

This does make me wonder... How does OGJ operate, financially speaking?

Mal and I worked out an indirect-taxation system similar to the one that keeps the United Nations going in our timeline: the factions contribute a small part of their operating revenues to Great Justice, which aggregates to a large enough sum that the GJ HQ and (small) standing fleet can be maintained. Additional ships are seconded from faction military forces where such forces exist (Trekkies, Warsies, Fivers, etc.), and expert personnel are seconded from other factions with the needed skills (Senshi, Supers, Stellvians, etc.).

That said, I like the idea of prizes financing GJ...

(The Space Patrol, OTOH, runs solely off of indirect taxation and gifts made anonymous through the Nikaido Foundation, with no calling up of reserves from other forces or taking and awarding of prizes. The police must both be impartial and be seen to be impartial.)

Complete with regular (read: every year) audits, since every American in Fenspace was technically self-employed, even if they were working for someone else.

That's one more reason why so many Fen took Australian citizenship once Oz recognized the Convention, yes...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012