[RFC] Haruhi; can we put this to bed finally?

[KJ]

Okay, basically there's long been a question - is she the character from the anime with the godlike powers and running the universe or not?  And it's been long running and not addressed even OOCly.  And I think we in the writerbase where we can actually talk things out OOCly even if it's never figured out (doesn't really matter what people think) ICly.  Personally... I vote for the option that doesn't make the rest of the project an elaborate Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya fanfic.  The alternative is maybe kind of funny as deep background, but makes things, OOCly, feel kind of dated, you know?

Opinions?

[ECSNorway]

I believe the decision was made when the SOS-dan were first introduced to the setting, that we -never- would make it clear whether they were the "real thing" or not. That Haruhi, like the actual origin of Handwavium, was simply one of the complete and unknown mysteries of the setting.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[robkelk]

The last time this came up, there was so much heat between the various camps that it almost pulled the Fenspace Collective apart... so I can see why it hasn't come up since.

I like the idea of leaving Haruhi's nature as a matter of Canon Uncertainty And Doubt.

But if that really isn't an option any more, consider: The esper cabal and the time-travelers of Haruhi's universe would never have allowed the foo of Haruhi Suzumiya novels to be published - Haruhi might see them - but it's been established that they were published in the Fenspace universe. Also, the Professor built a Ryoko-bot as one of his three assistants based on fictional characters.

Here are some possibilities:

• Haruhi and the SOS-dan [size=smaller](Silly Digression: Haruhi and the SOS-dan, performing for one week only! As seen in the anime "Ky-On!")[/size] are biomodded 'scure-Fen who got really lucky. (Sometimes everybody rolls a natural 3 on three dice. It can happen.) Haruhi doesn't remember who she used to be, Mikuru probably also doesn't remember, the others have enough self-control that they might or might not remember their past lives but keep quiet about the past around others.
  
• The SOS-dan are the SOS-dan we've seen in the novels, either manga series, either anime series, or some fanfic, transplanted to Fenspace in some way. (Doug Sangnoir visited Fenspace, so it's possible.) Haruhi either doesn't remember the shift or never noticed it.
  
• The SOS-dan are the SOS-dan, but everyone's now normal, and handwavium is the physical manifestation of what used to be their powers. (Think the end of Disappearance, except things didn't quite get put right.) There's no longer a reason to keep anything hidden from Haruhi, hence the publication of the novels. WARNING: This option establishes time-travel is or was part of the setting, so I doubt Mal would okay it.
  
• The Professor built a compete set of SOS-dan 'bots, then forgot about doing so. (His writeup says he does things like that.) Ryoko stayed with him, the others left. This has the implication that there's a complete set of My-HiME and Gall Force characters running around in Fenspace, too.
  
• Other.
  

Of those, I like the "biomodded 'scure-Fen" option the best. Whatever the truth is, that's the one Noah Scott believes...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

Of those, I like the "biomodded 'scure-Fen" option the best. Whatever the truth is, that's the one Noah Scott believes...

I think thats the "smoothest" solution. I would support it.

(but I must admit that I do not have a strong opinion on this, never thought it would be that important)

[Star Ranger4]

Of them all... if only as deep ooc I'd go for a really whacked out mix of two and 3... haruhi went for a reset on summat and the universe finally said enough... Kicks them out to the next uni or two over (fenspace). As a result they dont realize that they are meta fictional (event is similar to the 'reset' at the end of Sailor Moon) and even if they did, it would be pointless as her powers are gone, stripped away in the dimensional shift. But since power cant be destroyed, only change forms, it becomes the initial batches of Handwavium.
But, given that no one would ever know the truth, would all of that matter?   because arriving in this universe stripped of her powers (save for the precog flashes that cause her to get the convention called) just means Haruhi n da Dan would be no different than five obscure fen who scored that half a percent chance (EACH!  so lucky, of course they should be our leaders!!!)
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Cobalt Greywalker]

It would be pretty easy for the SOS-Dan to hide the fact of them being biomods (if they don't get ill, they won't see a doctor), but the Mads would probably find out if they meet them (Rob's established the Professor routinely scans people he meets, but probably forgot the insignificant result). That wouldn't stop hints of their nature leaking out.

Pretty much one of the only things I remember about the speculation LAST time of a biomodded Haruhi was someone suggesting that Haruhi possessed 'Handwavium Awareness', a little nudge in the back of her head that let her know about the state of Fenspace (hence, why she and the rest of the SOS-Dan spotted the Boskone threat so early). It was the initial source for the A.C.-Haruhi confrontation at Serenity-Con because, after all, if Haruhi possessed that ability, what would happen if she faced 2 and a half metric tonnes of self-aware Handwavium that did not like her very much.

If we sort out some of Haruhi's write up, we could perhaps hint at this or other abilities.

The actual truth is probably best used as a silly bit of background mystery, In Universe some speculate as we currently do but OOC we generally go for the biomodded 'scure Fen route.

[firvulag]

I generally fall into the "Don't really need to define it" camp for the final answer, although from personal preference I tend to either biomods or the Professor as answers.

-- 
Just go with the flow control, roll with the crunches, and, when you
get a prompt, type like hell.
    -- BSD fortune file

[Warringer]

Keep it open.

We don't need to explain everything.

[robkelk]

Let's recap:

KJ: not "Haruhi is Haruhi"

ECSNorway: Canon Uncertainty and Doubt (henceforth abbreviated)

Rob: CUD or biomods

HRogge: biomods

Star Ranger4: depowered sliders

Cobalt: CUD or biomods

Firvulag: CUD

Warringer: CUD

I think I see a trend... but not everyone has chimed in (including BA, Dartz, and Mal).
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

I was sort of assuming she was Kyon's fault..... he gives his girlfriend a little handwavium and it snowballed on him and just kept snowballing out of control as she found more SOS-fen and they agglomerated together. But he loves her enough he sticks with her, indulges her and most of all keeps her safe because it's his fault. But that's just me.

Most authors seem to be assuming a group of lucky biomods while writing.

CUD has it's advantages. After all, it's mentioned somewhere there're plenty of people who'll see her as the real thing in-universe. Though, no named characters seem to believe this, do they?
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Bob Schroeck]

Put me firmly in the CUD camp. I wrote the SOS-Dan entries just a couple weeks back with just that in mind -- there are hints at possible abilities, but nothing that can't be explained realistically. (I happen to personally like the "Mikuru is really twins" idea, myself. Kyon's probably wetting himself at the thought. ) And I have noted that Kyon's background, at least, can be traced all the way back to his birth, so that probably discounts the runaway bots idea unless someone changes the bio.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

CUD has it's advantages. After all, it's mentioned somewhere there're plenty of people who'll see her as the real thing in-universe. Though, no named characters seem to believe this, do they?

http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?title=Ryoko_Asakura]Ryoko does... but she also believes she's the real Ryoko.

(I happen to personally like the "Mikuru is really twins" idea, myself.

??? and ??? ("Mikuru" and "Kururu"), maybe, with ??? being the ditzy-moé one everybody sees and ??? being the scary-competent one in the background?

And I have noted that Kyon's background, at least, can be traced all the way back to his birth, so that probably discounts the runaway bots idea unless someone changes the bio.

Only for Kyon; we can mix-and-match character origins is we want to move this out of CUD.

(For that matter, if they're 'droids, maybe Kyon built them... including a matched pair of 'kurus.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[ECSNorway]

As for a complete set of Gall Force character androids, that's already canon.

They work for Greenwood Security Services. Elza was Captain of the GSS Belisarius at the Battle of Serenity Valley.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Bob Schroeck]

??? and ??? ("Mikuru" and "Kururu"),

Maybe it's just my propensity for wordplay, but why not Mikuru (???) and Kurumi (???)? (Or to go full mirror, Rukumi?)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

??? and ??? ("Mikuru" and "Kururu"),

Maybe it's just my propensity for wordplay, but why not Mikuru (???) and Kurumi (???)? (Or to go full mirror, Rukumi?)

"Kurumi" does work better than "Kururu"... especially if they are AIs: moé Mikuru and steel-angel Kurumi.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

I'm in CUD, but leaning more toward Biomods myself.

[M Fnord]

I don't like the CUD answer, because it's a cop-out and a compromise we came up with the last time this dramabomb dropped - and it didn't work. So I'm with KJ in that it's time to drop the uncertainty and just make a damn decision on the subject. I kind of like SR4's idea for sheer ballsiness of premise, but a combination of biomods and audacity works just as well for me. Also, we can probably write off the whole "Haruhi is Haruhi" idea since going by the responses nobody really wants to drive down that road.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[HRogge]

The existence of this thread and the some discussions on IRC suggest leaving this issue open might not be the optimal solution.

[Bob Schroeck]

steel-angel Kurumi.

Which is, indeed, what I had in mind.

I will reiterate that I think CUD is the best path. In Nomine doesn't suffer because the nature of Jesus is deliberately undefined and will remain so -- I don't see why we need to have this settled.

Unless someone's got a plot line planned where we need Haruhi to be a reality warper, or conversely, to not be one, at some critical moment?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Proginoskes]

I believe the argument hinges on the very uneasy relationship some people have with uncertainty. Two absolute mysteries in the underpinnings of the universe is one too many for some folks, so leaving Haruhi unexplained creates tension and conflict within the Collective, and Fenspace might suffer for it. (Note that this only applies to meta-knowledge; nobody objects to Haruhi remaining a mystery to the Peoples of Fenspace as far as I can tell.)

I personally have no problem with CUD, but for some people it causes FUD. The next most widely-supported option is biomod. Any actual objections to going that route?

[ECSNorway]

Here's my thought on the subject, if you want to cut out the CUD.

1. Haruhi has, in fact, been seen (or so a very few individuals claim to have seen her) reading the Haruhi Suzumiya manga. When questioned about it, she denies everything, pretends not to know what the person is talking about, changes the subject, or otherwise quite skillfully avoids the question. Same for the others.

2. Medical examination of any member of the SOS-dan, including Haruhi, appears to show that they are fully human and un-biomodded. And they act as if they were.

3. Item #2 above is, in fact, a quirk arising from the biomod incident that caused them to assume the appearance and identity of the MoHS cast. Or of whatever created the bioroid bodies they're living in. Whatever.

4. No one is so far aware of Item #3 above. It would take examination by a technogenius on the level of Skuld or Washuu to detect it. (No, Li Kohran is not on that level yet, nor is Montgomery Scott.) This may in fact take place during the "GGG" incident, seeing as how Skuld is apparently involved in it.

5. Certain members of the cast may or may not actually have powers associate with their depictions in the manga/anime. Some of these may or may not be faked, real, or a combination thereof. It is entirely possible, for example, that Mikuru really is a pair of twins, both of whom have (rather limited) teleportation or other time/space/weirdness abilities. Like most such details, the exact nature is left up to the needs of the story.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

Another choice for the biomod option is that it went a bit screwy. Haruhi may be being kept unaware of her biomod nature by the others of the SOS-Dan because there could be a bad reaction if she did find out. It's not like we haven't already had biomods with worrying abilities/quirks affecting body and mind before.

(This could also lead to the fact Haruhi knows she's a biomod, but thinks they're hiding something inconsequential. Comedy of misunderstandings anyone?)

Besides, the SOS-Dan don't meet up with the Girls AFAIK, unless Rob's been misdirecting us with his hints.

[robkelk]

I don't like the CUD answer, because it's a cop-out and a compromise we came up with the last time this dramabomb dropped - and it didn't work. So I'm with KJ in that it's time to drop the uncertainty and just make a damn decision on the subject. I kind of like SR4's idea for sheer ballsiness of premise, but a combination of biomods and audacity works just as well for me. Also, we can probably write off the whole "Haruhi is Haruhi" idea since going by the responses nobody really wants to drive down that road.

Mal has spoken. Time to stop chewing the CUD.

[size=smaller](No, I'm not sorry.)[/size]

And I agree about jettisoning the "Haruhi is Haruhi" idea. I signed up to take part in an original shared-world, not a shared MoHS fanfic.

4. No one is so far aware of Item #3 above. It would take examination by a technogenius on the level of Skuld or Washuu to detect it. (No, Li Kohran is not on that level yet, nor is Montgomery Scott.) This may in fact take place during the "GGG" incident, seeing as how Skuld is apparently involved in it.

If anyone in Fenspace is at that level, it's Dee. Even the Professor isn't that good. And Skuld's gift to Kohran (and the similar ones to Yayoi and Sora) doesn't have that kind of scanning ability.

More importantly, there is a plot point near the end of Chapter 5 (or maybe 6) of Legend of Galactic Girls that requires the Girls and Haruhi to not meet, so I'm using author veto (for the first time in a few years!) on that idea. Besides, Mal already established that they're stuck on Mars for most of the time the Girls are in-universe.

5. Certain members of the cast may or may not actually have powers associate with their depictions in the manga/anime. Some of these may or may not be faked, real, or a combination thereof. It is entirely possible, for example, that Mikuru really is a pair of twins, both of whom have (rather limited) teleportation or other time/space/weirdness abilities. Like most such details, the exact nature is left up to the needs of the story.

I would very much like to avoid Mikuru having actual time-travel powers, or Yuki having omnipotence. Either makes it difficult to believably create tension in a story.

I'm not happy about teleportation; that comes close to a Limit Break. But I still have an open mind on that.

I do like the Mikuru/Kurumi idea that Bob and I have been tossing around in this thread. Whether they're all-natural humans, biomods, CIs, or a mix of any two of the above is less important, but if we vote on Asahina being two people, my vote's "yes." (Hmmmmm... I like the thought of Kurumi being the original who built a lookalike 'bot for fits and giggles, but it awakened to become Mikuru. That would be different... Alternately, has anyone else here seen Figure 17? Riffing on that, maybe they're only hyper-competent when they're together.)

Besides, the SOS-Dan don't meet up with the Girls AFAIK, unless Rob's been misdirecting us with his hints.

There are no purposeful misdirections in my hints. (Accidental ones, maybe, but I like to think that I play fair.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

Hm. The big secret about Haruhi... could be that she was definitely of some other relationship to her Kyon before the Biomod(s) and the quirks afterwards result in the group social dynamic mimicking the SOS-dan of the novels.

Anything that might require secrecy to Haruhi herself probably means that Haruhi's is the most radical end result from the starting person, enough that there was a psychotic break or something right after she woke up: "That's not me, that's Haruhi... but she's in the mirror, so that is me, I'm Haruhi? Kyon! You lazy good-for-nothing! That's a penalty, leaving your fearless leader in a strange apartment!"
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

You know, I was wondering how Kyon and Haruhi ended up married in Fenspace... I think the answer is pretty clear -- they were married before the biomod that turned Mrs. Kyon into Ms. Suzumiya.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.