The view from outside - In re folks who know about Fenspace and "Don't Get It"

[Foxboy]

Since Mal's made Fenspace more visible, at least on Spacebattles, we've had a bit more attention from folks outside our little "echo-chamber hugbox."
Some of it's benign, of the "Oh wow, that's neat."
In fact, one of the MLP BROB threads decided to use Handwavium as one of its OCP force multipliers.
But, some folks violently don't get just why the Governments of the world don't use more Handwavium.
Thoughts?
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[HRogge]

The main "meta-reason" is that if the Governments would use more Handwavium, there would not be any Fenspace. Because Earth has much more resources to exploit, so the whole scenario would fall apart.

One possible "in universe" reason for this is that Handwavium does not react well to bureaucratic organizations. Which means that the organized exploitation of Handwavium often hits "creative" roadblocks. Another reason might be that Governments do not want Handwavium to spread through the Industry, because they fear a complete lack of control.

[robkelk]

Hmmmmm...

Consider the relationship between handwavium and Gervasio Faustino de Leon:

His personal "creativity" doesn't mesh well with 'wavium. In fact, "raw" Handwavium is actively repulsed by him.

This shows that 'wavium reacts differently to different personalities.

Assumption: On the Venn diagram of people in Gernsback-2, "people with the personality types that react best with 'wavium" and "people who've moved to Fenspace" have a large overlap - not total, but large. Conclusion from that assumption: the 'Danelaw doesn't make much use of Handwavium because they can't.

Alternate assumption: On the Venn diagram of people in Gernsback-2, "people with the personality types that react best with 'wavium" and "people who work for a government" have a small overlap - not nonexistent, but small. Conclusion from that assumption: the 'Danelaw doesn't make much use of Handwavium because bureaucracies don't understand it at all, and enact laws and policies in their ignorance that make using handwavium difficult.

Select either, both, or neither...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[LynnInDenver]

One possible "in universe" reason for this is that Handwavium does not react well to bureaucratic organizations. Which means that the organized exploitation of Handwavium often hits "creative" roadblocks. Another reason might be that Governments do not want Handwavium to spread through the Industry, because they fear a complete lack of control.

Best case, a government trying to create something with Handwavium gets something so quirked out, that only a very small percentage of the people it was intended for can actually use it effectively, either because it forces procedures that are well outside any "sane, normal" operating procedure, or because few people can effectively optimize operations around the quirk. A prime example would be an engine that needs a different song of a particular "type" a day to operate at anything near 100%, and that type does not cleanly correspond to a genre of music, or a band, or even a theme, such as "inspiration to kick some social ass" music.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[classicdrogn]

I figured it was because as far as the setting is concerned, the Earth is a large matte painting seen in exterior shots and a couple of studio backlots made up to look like airports or suburbs. Oh, and the occasional work on location in the Outback.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[M Fnord]

I'll just repeat what I said in that thread:

Originally, handwavium was going to have greater penetration in the non-Fen population than what shows right now, but the thing was because the rest of the world wasn't that gung-ho about space travel they'd use it for more prosaic things like clean energy and ending hunger, stuff like that. That got lost by the wayside in the initial zergrush.

And you know, I still stand by this. The use of handwavium shouldn't be restricted by something like "imagination" or "bureaucratic mindset" because that's kind of dumb. If anything, mundanes are just as willing to use it but they have different priorities than fen, therefore they get different results.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[HRogge]

Originally, handwavium was going to have greater penetration in the non-Fen population than what shows right now, but the thing was because the rest of the world wasn't that gung-ho about space travel they'd use it for more prosaic things like clean energy and ending hunger, stuff like that. That got lost by the wayside in the initial zergrush.

And you know, I still stand by this. The use of handwavium shouldn't be restricted by something like "imagination" or "bureaucratic mindset" because that's kind of dumb. If anything, mundanes are just as willing to use it but they have different priorities than fen, therefore they get different results.

The argument seems to be that Earth is that large that even if a small part of Earth is interested in space-tech (but not in joining the Fen), there will be more of them than the Fen. Which would mean that the Fen become a minority in terms of space travel.

[Ace Dreamer]

You could argue that it is a control issue.

A, organisations want control of the situation that they find themselves in, and governments find that nearly impossible with handwavium.

B, handwavium just doesn't deliver consistent results (unless you really, really, know what you're doing), which a bureaucracy can't tolerate.

C, most people can get handwavium to do simple stuff they've heard works, but you need to be something of an Outsider to get the best from it.

D, handwavium doesn't dare mess with M Fnord.

Choose one or more from the above.

(( http://en.wikipedia.org/w...sider_%28Colin_Wilson%29 ))
(( Wilson has explored the idea of 'peak experiences' all his life (non-religious mystical experiences) and they sound a bit like 'Blue Hair' days... ))
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[LynnInDenver]

It might be a little of both... if you can't get Handwavium to work for you, you don't have a mindset compatible with it.

On the other hand, a lot of people on Earth probably haven't bothered - like the Make community, it's really still going to be a (relative) minority of the populace that has done it, most people really aren't interested in DIY technology building, and Handwavium certainly counts. And a relative minority of those are the Fen themselves. The Fen are merely the most visible because they've got the itch to be the true trailblazers.

(And now that I've said THAT, I imagine that there is a really small relative minority in the Make community that despise Handwavium because it's a "shortcut" in the process, especially when you're doing a DIY thing to actually learn about something.)
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[ECSNorway]

(And now that I've said THAT, I imagine that there is a really small relative minority in the Make community that despise Handwavium because it's a "shortcut" in the process, especially when you're doing a DIY thing to actually learn about something.)

Very much so, yes.

That's one of the reasons why I've been pushing hardtech conversions so much for my faction. They don't quite -trust- handwavium.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Ace Dreamer]

OK, I think it might be worth looking at the handwavium.

An obvious explanation for what is going on, or is not going on, is that Handwavium has an agenda. "But, surely it does whatever you want?" Some restrictions are:

* no powered weapons (including 'boom is bad')

* limited personal enhancement (not all biomods are walking (flying) around with superpowers)

* understand what you're doing, or else (the basis of a lot of quirks)

* have clear motivations (agree with your subconscious, or, for example, your gender may vary)

* no quirky life support

And I'm sure there are others. A lot of this agenda is summed-up as:

'handwavium is benevolent, but'

and:

'you may not get what what you want, but it'll be survivable'

All this implies handwavium has some quite elegant meta agendas.

The conspiracy theorists and the professional paranoids love handwavium. Why don't Mundane governments use handwavium to build inter-stellar empires (and drab housing estates)?
The simple answer, that makes Fenspace the setting it is, is, 'that's just how it is'. The more complex answer is 'we don't know, but we might be able to make a few guesses'...
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[ECSNorway]

A tidbit from a scientist's rant I've had running through my head and may post all of soon if I can work it out:

"Handwavium does not break the laws of physics. It can't. That's why they're the laws of physics. What it does is show us that we don't know what all the laws of physics are. Newton did that. Einstein did that. Anyone here with half a brain can add more names to that list.

"What sticks in the craw of some of my colleagues is that the behavior of handwavium is eccentric in ways that, so far as our current understanding of nature goes, is impossible without the intervention of a conscious mind. For them that comes far too close to proof of existence of Deity for them to accept, and that's why they lobbied so hard for the TSAB project. It's why I supported it, for that matter.

"Because sooner or later, you have to ask yourself: If there is a conscious mind directing the goo in how and where it will help us, whose mind is it?

"And what will happen if they change their mind about us? Or, gods help us, get bored?"
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Ace Dreamer]

A tidbit from a scientist's rant I've had running through my head and may post all of soon if I can work it out:

"Handwavium does not break the laws of physics. It can't. That's why they're the laws of physics. What it does is show us that we don't know what all the laws of physics are. Newton did that. Einstein did that. Anyone here with half a brain can add more names to that list.

"What sticks in the craw of some of my colleagues is that the behavior of handwavium is eccentric in ways that, so far as our current understanding of nature goes, is impossible without the intervention of a conscious mind. For them that comes far too close to proof of existence of Deity for them to accept, and that's why they lobbied so hard for the TSAB project. It's why I supported it, for that matter.

"Because sooner or later, you have to ask yourself: If there is a conscious mind directing the goo in how and where it will help us, whose mind is it?

"And what will happen if they change their mind about us? Or, gods help us, get bored?"

I like this...
Should be in a "non-Fenspace view of handwavium" on the wiki, I think.
So, keep the handwavium entertained, or, it is Alien Space Bat time, for a "more interesting life"? [grin]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Proginoskes]

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Mal and say that the only reason we haven't seen the Really Real World do much with Handwavium is that nobody's written about the greening of the Sahara, or carbon-capture systems that use biomodded plants, or the slow-but-rigorous developments in 'Daneside Handwavium materials science. As important and satisfying as those things are (which is why 'Daneside has focused on them), they aren't exciting the way Space is.

[robkelk]

A tidbit from a scientist's rant I've had running through my head and may post all of soon if I can work it out:

"Handwavium does not break the laws of physics. It can't. That's why they're the laws of physics. What it does is show us that we don't know what all the laws of physics are. Newton did that. Einstein did that. Anyone here with half a brain can add more names to that list.

"What sticks in the craw of some of my colleagues is that the behavior of handwavium is eccentric in ways that, so far as our current understanding of nature goes, is impossible without the intervention of a conscious mind. For them that comes far too close to proof of existence of Deity for them to accept, and that's why they lobbied so hard for the TSAB project. It's why I supported it, for that matter.

"Because sooner or later, you have to ask yourself: If there is a conscious mind directing the goo in how and where it will help us, whose mind is it?

"And what will happen if they change their mind about us? Or, gods help us, get bored?"

It's been four months since you posted this... Mind if I put it on the FenWiki "Handwavium" page, as-is?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Foxboy]

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Mal and say that the only reason we haven't seen the Really Real World do much with Handwavium is that nobody's written about the greening of the Sahara, or carbon-capture systems that use biomodded plants, or the slow-but-rigorous developments in 'Daneside Handwavium materials science. As important and satisfying as those things are (which is why 'Daneside has focused on them), they aren't exciting the way Space is.

Another reason would include the "dirtside boskonians" who like things as they are and that a green Sahara would cut into their powerbase.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Mark Skarr]

This gets a bit harsh, but, I think you might want to analyze it as it’s probably a very valid view for a ‘dane. This is a nutshell version of my major problems with Fenspace, and why, usually, I only do extraneous and humorous things with it.

As an “outside” point of view, I’ll put my two cents worth in.

Handwavium, much to the contrary of other posters (no offense), does violate the laws of physics. It might be following some obscure, as-yet, undiscovered laws of Quantum Physics, but that doesn’t make it any better. On numerous occasions it is seen violating the laws of conservation of energy. Claiming that it’s doing so because it’s following laws of physics we haven’t discovered yet doesn’t change the fact that it is violating the laws we do understand. To make matters worse not all handwaved objects violate the same laws in the same way.

It is completely unpredictable. Sure, you can apply it to a car and get a space-capable car, but how? That doesn’t make any sense. Where is this ability coming from? How is it doing all this? If you apply handwavium to a ’68 VW Bug, you have the ability to drive into space even though there is no capability for the vehicle to do so under even the most generous interpretations of the laws of physics. The fact that numerous ‘waved devices work better under esoteric circumstances (specific music playing) further removes it from any level of science.

It is at least sentient, if not truly sapient. Handwavium has a personality, and consequently, it has to have some form of intelligence. The issue comes to us that if it is intelligent, and possibly sapient, what do we do when it turns against us? What do we do with the people who have willingly fused themselves with an unknowable, alien intelligence?

The other shoe is orbital. Seriously, the other shoe is going to drop, and when it does it’s going to be an extinction-level event. How many people will die when Handwavium “turns off?” Sure, all the authors who have complete control over their stories say “that will never happen” but, from an outside perspective, or even an inside, in-world perspective where they lack such omnipotence, it’s terrifying. It’s not hard to understand why the ‘danes are terrified of the Fen and why they’re happy to not have them on Earth. People who are willing to risk their lives with a substance that is not understood are dangerous to have around.

There was a great line in the Jurassic Park novel. It was paraphrased in the movie, and, honestly, I’m going to paraphrase as well, because my novel has been destroyed, I haven’t replaced it yet and I’m aiming it at the Fen: The lack of humility before science it terrifying. The Fen haven’t earned their place in space, they got there by standing on a miracle. They wield this power like a kid who has found his father’s gun and has no understanding of the consequences of his actions. There has been no discipline to get where they are, and they think that they are owed something for having got this far though they have not done anything to earn it.

Handwavium is a totchkey of plot device elevated to a main character. Best case—Handwavium is magic and has the same plot and story issues as magic. Worst case, it’s a form of grey goo being controlled by an alien intellect that has plans for Earth.

Again, that’s just my five cents worth.

[M Fnord]

As an “outside” point of view, I’ll put my two cents worth in.

Part of me, when confronted with this sort of reaction, just wants to throw up my hands, say "Fuck it" and start closing down everything, because apparently nobody actually gets it and/or are too consumed with cynicism and fear to even consider alternate possibilities that even if they're blatantly magical are too scary because it posits that people might not be born evil and I should save myself the soul-ache of trying to reach out to them the motherfuckers obviously they're too far gone to see anything other than smug nihilism everywhere and fuck this why do I even bother trying... But that part of me is the part that's an auteur, and also kind of a dickhead, so I ignore it for the most part. Even when it's screaming in my ear like it is now.

Anyway.

Handwavium defies the laws of physics. Sure does. Gleefully, even, if the stuff has a personality. And it seems to have rules embedded that point towards the creator(s) having an agenda. In the dark of night that can be disquieting, even if the agenda may very well be benign. But the Fen still use it, and so do the terrestrial nations.

Why? Because while it breaks the laws of physics it is not completely unpredictable, it still has rules and the fact that it has rules means that humans or metahumans or transhumans can learn those rules, and by learning those rules gain insight into how it works. When handwavium fucks around with conventional mechanics it does so in consistent and predictable ways. Simply by observing that we can determine things about how handwavium breaks the current model and maybe modify the model in response. We're an empirical species by nature, we learn best by doing things both positive and negative. So we tinker and we chant our little chants and wave chickens around trying to divine the nature of the beast and in the process we learn a little bit more with each line and each stray feather. It ain't pretty but it works, and every passing day brings us that much further from H. habilis playing with the burning branch and that much closer to a working model of thermodynamics and combustion.

And then there's humility. To whom, precisely? God? The Universe? Ian Malcolm? Some abstract notion of Science and Progress? What have the Fen not bowed before sufficiently to make their advances morally acceptable? I'm honestly curious.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Proginoskes]

Also, everything is completely unpredictable in the absence of data. Gathering data is what the scientific method is all about. And while how Handwavium does its thing remains mysterious, what it does and what influences its effects can both be scientifically studied.
Let me put it this way: was chemistry less of a science before atomic physics explained the mechanism behind it? Of course not. Science is far more about what we don't understand than it is about what we do. That's part of why it's so marvelous. If you think all of Handwavium's weirdnesses further remove it from "any level of science", then you don't understand what science really is.

[Mark Skarr]

Ah, yes, the old “you don’t know what science is” ad
nauseum argument.  Usually made by
those who really don’t.  If it can be
scientifically studied, it can be reproduced reliably.  Maybe not in a lab, but in the universe.  And, according to the Rules, handwavium
can’t.  Rule #1 states “you will
get something close but not exactly identical to your specifications.”  That, alone defies science.

 

If every scientist on earth performed the same experiment
with Handwavium, would they get the same result?  No.  They’d
all get different results.  That
defies science.  In the next
experiment when they all got different results again, and the results didn’t
match the first experiment either . . . something is wrong.  After dozens of experiments . . . with none
of it working, that means that, A. 
Science as we know it doesn’t work or B.  This substance operates beyond the rules of
Science.  Neither are scientifically-valid
answers.

 

Yet, here we are.

 

Predictably, you’ve totally missed the point of my
post.  You’re taking it as an attack
against Fenspace in general and you, M Fnord, in specific.  It wasn’t and it isn’t.  It’s a point of view that is not shared by me
alone. 

 

My post was a discussion on why people who are outside
of your little clique would find Handwavium and Fenspace odd and “uncomfortable.”

 

As a meta reason, M Fnord, you’re another reason I don’t do
much with Fenspace.  Historically, you’ve
shown that you’re unwilling and unable to accept that a perspective that is not
100% in line with your Fenspace/Handwavium ideal is “badwrongfun.”  You’re also the only person here who takes
any critical discussion on Fenspace as a personal attack.

 

So, here comes a critical discussion:

 

From a story perspective part of the issue is that you’re asking
us to accept three miracles instead of just one.  One is overt—Handwavium exists and can do all
these wonderful things. 

 

Sure, I can accept that. 
No problem. 

 

The second one is semi-overt—Handwavim is infallible
and perfect and incorruptible. 
I’m not saying that it gives you what you’re looking for, I’m saying
that it doesn’t do bad things. 

 

That’s a little out there, but why not.  I can live with that.  But, you should put that on the tin.

 

The third is the big one. 
You even allude to it, but totally fail to understand just what it is
you’re asking.  You are asking us to
believe that everyone is born good and altruism rules the universe.

 

I’m not that cynical but I am a skeptic.  It’s not nihilism it’s simple logic.  In fact, you’re the only one showing any
nihilism.  I understand that Fenspace isn’t
a Dystopia.  But, that doesn’t mean
everyone is perfect.  Mary Sues are
perfect.  The fact remains that there are
going to be just as many evil people as good people.  And, to be truthful—most people are
neither, they just are.

 

It doesn’t take everyone being “evil” just one.  And they don’t even have to be “evil,” just
have a different perspective. 

 

And while we can agree that Handwavium breaks the laws of
physics (that, really, doesn’t bother me—just stop trying to say it does!), you
comment that the Fen still use it as do the terrestrial nations.  That’s fine. 
But, you don’t see normal people using Plutonium on a day-to-day
basis.  Handwavium, in any realistic
world (which, hey, I’m not saying Fenspace is realistic, but that’s the point
of view of the ‘Danes, and many people outside of Fenspace will have) it would
be as heavily regulated (if not more) than any radioactive or explosive material.

 

Sure, there are some things that Handwavium does that are
predictable—it eats stuff to make more Handwavium (just like grey goo, hmm . .
.).  You can’t make it to create weapons.  You can use it to make vehicles space-worthy
and capable.  But, Rule #1 even states
that you don’t get what you want, only something close.  And close is determined by how capable you
are of envisioning your idea.  I’ve seen
discussions that Handwavium doesn’t work for everyone.  If that is true then it doesn’t
react in a predictable manner.

 

Handwavium’s rules are extremely meta.  They’re game rules not natural laws.  The fact that you can’t get what you want,
only something “close” is a guarantee that no one will ever figure the
rules out.

 

And the final attempt at an insult:  Humility to whom?  I figured it would be obvious . . . there I
go, thinking again.   Humility to their audience.

 

Handwavium is treated as a fact.  It is treated as an in-universe truth
that is never gives out or fails.  It
expects the audience to believe this without an explanation.  It’s a religion that the audience is expected
to know is both a fact and a truth. 
And, it lacks the humility to the audience because it refuses to stand
up to analysis beyond “it just does.”

 

To the uninitiated, Handwavium is a Mary-Sue-maker.  Anyone can use it and become
awesome.  Come up with some
interesting quirks that don’t really harm the character and give them some
nifty powers and you’re golden.  As I’ve
been looking over the pictures that need to be created I see a lot of people
who would be classified as super heroes in any other universe.  I know dozens of munchkins who would whine
and cry to have this sort of totchkey to rub all over their characters.
And, again, there is a reason I don't do much with it beyond pictures and humor.

[Proginoskes]

Okay, yeah, my last point was poorly made, and I used unacceptably condescending language. It still stands, though: science isn't about getting what you ask for on the first try. It's about learning stuff. And repeatable results have been obtained in the stories.
And it's interesting that you bring up radioactive material. For a long time, radiation was held to have miraculous healing properties. Before that, exotic natural materials, electricity, and unusual chemical preparations had their turn at the same reputation. I believe that humanity is fundamentally optimistic, and that every new thing will be joyously embraced until bitter experience teaches us that it needs to be handled with care.
All that said, Fenspace isn't to everyone's tastes. No problem. So long as you don't go on about its flaws when we haven't invited it (which I think you're good about; we invited it in this thread, and I haven't seen this kind of thing from you before), there isn't any cause for Drama. Right, Mal?

[KJ]

So, here comes a critical discussion:

 

From a story perspective part of the issue is that you’re asking
us to accept three miracles instead of just one.  One is overt—Handwavium exists and can do all
these wonderful things.

 

The second one is semi-overt—Handwavim is infallible
and perfect and incorruptible. 
I’m not saying that it gives you what you’re looking for, I’m saying
that it doesn’t do bad things.

 The third is the big one. 
You even allude to it, but totally fail to understand just what it is
you’re asking.  You are asking us to
believe that everyone is born good and altruism rules the universe.

 

Okay, I'm going to do what it kind of seems like you did, and pick and choose things while not bothering to read for anything that might counter my arguments.
The second part of it is one of those things where you'll have to define 'bad'.  No, you don't magically get death rays or planet cracker stuff, fine.  However, in stuff that's out there, and heavily referenced, it has been used by a lot of people, even in the subset of folks who are Up, to do things to people against their will, permanently transforming their bodies.  Or has happened to people on their own, in some cases things that you could pretty easily look at as seriously traumatic, dehumanizing, life-changing crap from which you never get to go back.
The third part... are you for real?  What part of "we don't really want to write a grimdark dystopia where everybody's dreams get crushed" as a general genre directive equates to "everybody's a bunch of pink fluffy clouds farting rainbows"?  I mean, ffs, I don't even know where to start on that one.  At the very least, a lot of the main characters are assholes, some are on the megalomaniacal sense, and one of the most major events we've bothered to write about is a bunch of people fighting back against a group involved in, among other things, human trafficking. 
Honestly I can see this being taken as personal attacks; the scope of what you've boiled your criticism into flies in the face of the setting to the extent that I'm just left with the impression of someone saying "Okay, I haven't read anything you've written but I think I sorta get the gist and here's why it's bad."

[Mark Skarr]

@Proginoskes:

Misunderstanding accepted and acknowledged.

You are completely correct about the past.  But, now,
we have regulations that keep bad things like that from happening.  I almost
used your argument as an example as to why not to do what the Fen are
doing.

The only reason I posted to this thread at all is
because it seemed to be asking why people don’t understand Fenspace.  I’m
uniquely situated to give an observation on it.

You understand that it’s not something for everyone.  It’s
not my cup of tea.  That doesn’t mean that I can’t help you guys out with
pictures and an outsider perspective (which is what I’m trying to do, but some
of your peers don’t seem to get that). 

 

@KJ

If anything did counter my arguments, I would have read
them.  But, they didn’t.  They require me to, willingly, accept the “faith” of
Fenspace.  I don’t.  Sorry.  I am an outsider—by definition, I do not
share your perspective.

And, fair enough, I didn’t, adequately define “bad.”  I’m
sorry.

If Joe Fen decides to apply it to his ’68 Barracuda to take
him into orbit it will work.  Sure, the air conditioner may blow fishy
smells and it likes to dart from place to place snapping its hood open and
close, but there is never any doubt that everything will work “as
expected” within a minor deviation. 

But, it can’t turn the car into a human-eating machine.  The
atmospheric processor (where did that come from?) won’t suddenly start
spewing carbon monoxide into the passenger compartment.  The car won’t ever
require a blood sacrifice. 

Sure, you could apply Handwavium to someone, against their
will, and mess them up.  But, the handwavium would never do that by
itself.  Sure, it might do something “unexpected” (A.C. Peters comes to mind,
since I’ve been working on her), but never anything inherently detrimental to
the person.   

And the third one:   Yes, I’m for real.  You’re asking us to
believe that the universe is inherently altruistic.  I firmly believe
that it is not.  I believe that it knows neither mercy nor malice.  The
personality of the human characters is not part of the discussion as they’re not
why people don’t get Fenspace.  But Handwavium is also a major character, and
its personality is what I’m calling into question.   

This isn’t a personal attack, though you are making one
against me.  This was a question as to why outsiders don’t “get” Fenspace, and
I’m answering that question.  I will point out that I’m not targeting the
stories but the world because the world is what people don’t get.  
People who want to find out about the world might read a story or two, then they
would look more into the world and start spotting all the issues I’ve brought
up. 

The fact remains that many of the stories would stand on
their own when removed from the Fenspace world.  That speaks volumes of the
authors’ abilities. 

This is very much an outsider calling your faith into
question and you’re responding exactly as I would expect.   

And let me make this clear, because some of you don’t seem to
get it.  I’m not telling you to change anything.  I’m providing
information because it was requested.  It’s your sandbox, play in it the way you
want to.  I’m not telling you that writing in your world is “badwrongfun.”  If
it makes you happy then keep doing it!  I’m the last person who would ever tell
you that you’re having “badwrongfun.”

[Proginoskes]

Another thing that might be why everyone's hackles are raised at you, Mark: we actually didn't ask for "flaws in the Fenspace setting", although the thread title and my response to you implied that. Before we got derailed by Internet Drama, the thread was about "how do we address this very specific issue of people responding with vitriol to the lack of Earthly nations in Fenspace?". So while you thought it was Outsider Feedback Time, and I responded as if it were, everybody else reads it as unsolicited, which naturally raises their dander.

[Mark Skarr]

Ah, well, then, I stand corrected. And I apologize.