OneManga shutting down

[Epsilon]

sweno wrote:

Electronic versions of books and comics (and manga) will never be offered at a substantially different/lower price. This is because the value of a book is not in the medium it is printed on, but the words/pictures that make it up. The paper is often seen as disposable, or close too it (if this were not the case consumers would be demanding higher quality books, and outside of a very small market this doesn't happen). To offer an electronic version of a story, at a significantly lower price, would decrease the perceived value of the printed works. Because, after all, it's the same content.

This is contrary to actual reality. As an roleplaying gamer I can tell you this simply isn't the case when you get right down to it. Many of the game books I purchase are in dead tree format and they are, in fact, more expensive than the e-book versions I can purchase of these works. As mentioned in this very thread Viz is offering some of their manga online for free right this very second. People claming the industry will never change are speaking out of their ass.
And all you people claiming that free scanlations got you into the product, great. But let me ask you this:
If all the free scanlations of Negima (or whatever) dried up tomorrow would you stop purchasing the official releases?
And claiming that its "scanlations or nothing" for some series is being misleading. There are other options you just don't want to pay for them. Last I checked, purchasing a copy of a tankouban and having it shappied overseas to you was still legal. Heck, there are places you can do it online. I know its possible because Ayiekie has an entire collection of Ranma 1/2 Tankouban and many other series in the original Japanese besides. You could learn Japanese to read them, or grab a purely text translation and so on and so forth.
Getting access to these products legally is possible. Not as convenient as going to a single site and downloading hundreds of series for free but hey...
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Epsilon

[Morganite]

And all you people claiming that free scanlations got you into the product, great. But let me ask you this:
If all the free scanlations of Negima (or whatever) dried up tomorrow would you stop purchasing the official releases?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If something like that made sense, shouldn't I also no longer be interested in the Steel Angel Kurumi manga, because there are no official releases anymore?

grab a purely text translation and so on and so forth.

What if no text translation exists?

And even then, you're getting into serious usability issues there. Some people have enough trouble scanning back and forth to watch subtitled anime. Going back and forth between a paper volume and a webpage is disruptive enough to the experience that it's probably going to stop being worth it except for things one is extremely devoted to. Though you could make an argument for buying the original volume and then reading the scanslations. Or the other way around.

-Morgan.

[Epsilon]

And all you people claiming that free scanlations got you into the product, great. But let me ask you this:
If all the free scanlations of Negima (or whatever) dried up tomorrow would you stop purchasing the official releases?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If something like that made sense, shouldn't I also no longer be interested in the Steel Angel Kurumi manga, because there are no official releases anymore?

Let's accept the premise that the free scanlation sold you on Manga X (Negima, FMA, whatever) like has been brought up in this thread. Okay, you're sold now. You like Manga X enough to purchase the official releases. Why are you continuing to read the scanlations? The official releases are coming out because you are buying them. Would you stop buying the official releases because you couldn't read the latest scanlations?
Your argument is that "free samples produce interest" which is true but meaningless. Once again, what you can do is encourage the NA published to provide free samples if you like them that much. Seriously, it works. It IS working. Funimation has all of FMA: Brotherhood, Soul Eater and other anime available for free. The industry is listening. If you support the official releases and don't leap to the pirates they can and do change their ways.

grab a purely text translation and so on and so forth.

What if no text translation exists?

And even then, you're getting into serious usability issues there. Some
people have enough trouble scanning back and forth to watch subtitled
anime. Going back and forth between a paper volume and a webpage is
disruptive enough to the experience that it's probably going to stop
being worth it except for things one is extremely devoted to. Though you
could make an argument for buying the original volume and then reading
the scanslations. Or the other way around.

Learn Japanese then? Or (shocking!) wait for the official English-version release.
----------------
Epsilon

[Dartz]

You've got to remember that not all sites ship to all countries.... most will ship to the US, but not all of us live in the United States. Then there may be customs issues if it's coming in from outside the EU on top of this. There's also the simple security issue of putting my credit card details out online. Whether I trust the website or not, I don't trust the connection, or my own computer not to be compromised. I have a friend who got stung by a keylogger a while back. It's not just purchasing either, I make a point not to do any banking online, unless I can absolutely help it. I prefer to go to the bank in person. It's a bit of a tinfoil hat... but I really don't trust the internet. Some might say it's ridiculous... but the only things I've ever bought via the web are this Computer, and my college registration fees (Though from within the college itself with that one).

Even without that, international eCommerce can be a real pain in the arse, especially when things go wrong. I prefer to buy things either in stores, or at cons where I can actually talk to someone, haggle over the price, and not smash my credit card to a point I can't afford to repay. The vast majority of my collection I bought either at Eirtakon, London Expo or at a few places in town I know. Also, at cons I can get stuff even cheaper than online rates, in bulk, and in a bag which I can walk out the door with. I build up cash during the year to go along with a list of things I'm looking for, then try to fill that list. The problem with this is that Ireland is a bit of an animé backwater... very little animé is actually sold here because the market is tiny (which is why I went to London Expo).

And in anyways, when translations of BL go.... I wont stop buying it. But without the scanlations, would I have started?

I guess it's all just swings and roundabouts, however.... and I am a real tinfoil hatter about the web.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Epsilon]

You've got to remember that not all sites ship to all countries.... most will ship to the US, but not all of us live in the United States. Then there may be customs issues if it's coming in from outside the EU on top of this. There's also the simple security issue of putting my credit card details out online. Whether I trust the website or not, I don't trust the connection, or my own computer not to be compromised. I have a friend who got stung by a keylogger a while back. It's not just purchasing either, I make a point not to do any banking online, unless I can absolutely help it. I prefer to go to the bank in person. It's a bit of a tinfoil hat... but I really don't trust the internet. Some might say it's ridiculous... but the only things I've ever bought via the web are this Computer, and my college registration fees (Though from within the college itself with that one).

Even without that, international eCommerce can be a real pain in the arse, especially when things go wrong. I prefer to buy things either in stores, or at cons where I can actually talk to someone, haggle over the price, and not smash my credit card to a point I can't afford to repay. The vast majority of my collection I bought either at Eirtakon, London Expo or at a few places in town I know. Also, at cons I can get stuff even cheaper than online rates, in bulk, and in a bag which I can walk out the door with. I build up cash during the year to go along with a list of things I'm looking for, then try to fill that list. The problem with this is that Ireland is a bit of an animé backwater... very little animé is actually sold here because the market is tiny (which is why I went to London Expo).

Your argument is incoherent then. On the one hand you want companies to offer more selection online, but on the other hand... you aren't willing to pay for those online services. If you areb't willing to pay how are you going to demonstrate the demand that companies need to see before they start expanding operations? You're just demanding free access and that's not something I find morally defensible.
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Epsilon

[Morganite]

Let's accept the premise that the free scanlation sold you on Manga X (Negima, FMA, whatever) like has been brought up in this thread. Okay, you're sold now. You like Manga X enough to purchase the official releases. Why are you continuing to read the scanlations?

In most cases I'm familiar with, it's the same reason the scanslations continue to be made - because it will be months or years before the official release catches up to the material currently being released.

Your argument is that "free samples produce interest" which is true but meaningless. Once again, what you can do is encourage the NA published to provide free samples if you like them that much. Seriously, it works. It IS working. Funimation has all of FMA: Brotherhood, Soul Eater and other anime available for free. The industry is listening. If you support the official releases and don't leap to the pirates they can and do change their ways.

I'm not sure I *was* making that argument, but okay. What about series that aren't licensed? I suppose that's more relevant to this next bit.

Learn Japanese then? Or (shocking!) wait for the official English-version release.

Not everyone has the time or wherewithal to learn a new language for what is only a recreational activity. Setting that high a barrier of entry to people looking into a series that's not available in their language would pretty much ensure that things like the international success of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya wouldn't happen.

And if there never is an offical English release?

What if the original manga is out of print?

-Morgan.

[Valles]

Let's accept the premise that the free scanlation sold you on Manga X (Negima, FMA, whatever) like has been brought up in this thread. Okay, you're sold now. You like Manga X enough to purchase the official releases. Why are you continuing to read the scanlations? The official releases are coming out because you are buying them. Would you stop buying the official releases because you couldn't read the latest scanlations?

Because the scanslations keep pace with the Japanese language releases, and the official English language ones do not, often by a difference of months or years - several volumes worth, at the least. Because, loving and being engaged with the story, we want to keep track, to keep pace - to read more.

And, at least personally, because I've yet to see what I consider a credible demonstration of harm resulting from the practice.

Your argument is that "free samples produce interest" which is true but meaningless. Once again, what you can do is encourage the NA published to provide free samples if you like them that much. Seriously, it works. It IS working. Funimation has all of FMA: Brotherhood, Soul Eater and other anime available for free. The industry is listening. If you support the official releases and don't leap to the pirates they can and do change their ways.

I don't go out and randomly suck down everything I can reach. I hear or read about something interesting, and track down an example. Occaisionally this has been legitimately available - Soukyou no Strain is the example that leaps to mind - but for the most part, it's not. Perhaps there've been cases where my searching has simply led me to pirate sources first - it wouldn't surprise me.

Given that the ultimate result - my viewing and evaluating the material for later purchase once my cash flow opens up - is the same, I can't say I consider the difference worth expending energy over.

Learn Japanese then? Or (shocking!) wait for the official English-version release.

First presuming that there is and will be one, of course. Or that the degree of effort and money required for Japanese instruction is rated as less troublesome than doing without the reading material in question.
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Dartz]

Your argument is incoherent then. On the one hand you want companies to offer more selection online, but on the other hand... you aren't willing to pay for those online services. If you areb't willing to pay how are you going to demonstrate the demand that companies need to see before they start expanding operations? You're just demanding free access and that's not something I find morally defensible.
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Epsilon

I never said they'd be selling it.

Give away for free?... not quite. I'm aware bandwith and the like isn't free. But, correct me if I'm wrong, don't Funimation post some animé series' on youtube to beat the fansubbers? Not sure whether they post whole series or not, since they're blocked outside of the US (grrr), but I've been linked to some of them before. The first volume online to generate interest... and maybe snippets of the latest... similar to what Funi are doing.

Also... I am terrible at languages. Trust me, I can barely do English, and it's my native language, so learning Japanese would be really hard for me.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Epsilon]

In most cases I'm familiar with, it's the same reason the scanslations continue to be made - because it will be months or years before the official release catches up to the material currently being released.

I manage to follow my favorite series from overseas without persuing scanlations. And why do you have the right to follow it immediatly? I didn't read Scott Pilgrim until about eight years after the first volume was released and yet (amazingly!) it was still worth reading when I did. Having to wait a few months won't kill you.

Not everyone has the time or wherewithal to learn a new language for
what is only a recreational activity. Setting that high a barrier of
entry to people looking into a series that's not available in their
language would pretty much ensure that things like the international
success of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya wouldn't happen.

And if there never is an offical English release?

What if the original manga is out of print?

I've yet to see definitive evidence that fnasubs of MoHS masisvely increased sales. I tend to assume the reason that good series are successful is because (shock and awe!) they are good series. I have seen evidence where available fansubs decreased the marketability of an anime: the original Negima anime series flopped in the states because so many people had downloaded the fansubs and decided it was crap. Then there is the evidence of Taiwan and the massive illegal markets that grew up when no copyright laws were enforced and how much damage they've done.
---------------
Epsilon

[Morganite]

I don't go out and randomly suck down everything I can reach.

Though it's worth noting that some people do. In emulation groups on usenet I used to see people going to a lot of effort to get versions of games that wouldn't even run properly. More recently, I've seen bulk torrents of console games that are about the size of every hard drive I've ever owned put together.

I consider this a good thing, but it seems like I've got different priorities than a lot of people.

Also:

On the one hand you want companies to offer more selection online, but on the other hand... you aren't willing to pay for those online services.

It sounded to me like she doesn't like to do *any* financial business online. And wants companies to offer more selection in brick-and-mortar stores within visitable range.

-Morgan.

[Dartz]

I don't go out and randomly suck down everything I can reach.

Though it's worth noting that some people do. In emulation groups on usenet I used to see people going to a lot of effort to get versions of games that wouldn't even run properly. More recently, I've seen bulk torrents of console games that are about the size of every hard drive I've ever owned put together.

I consider this a good thing, but it seems like I've got different priorities than a lot of people.

Never mind the bandwith needed to suck all that down must be hellaciously expensive. I don't know why people say scanlations are free... they're not. You pay for the bandwitdth to download them. You just don't notice it unless you smash through your ISP's cap and get massively charged. And the time to download. With my connection it's faster to go buy a couple of DvD's, rather than torrent them and deal with spotty quality, inconsistent translations, and irritating fonts.

On the one hand you want companies to offer more selection online, but on the other hand... you aren't willing to pay for those online services.

It sounded to me like he doesn't like to do *any* financial business online. And wants companies to offer more selection in brick-and-mortar stores within visitable range.

-Morgan.

Sorry... but I had to point out that I am not female.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Morganite]

Huh. Well, you've got the forum convinced that you are. "Dartz @drunkardswalkforums updated her own avatar ..."

-Morgan.

[Epsilon]

Never mind the bandwith needed to suck all that down must be hellaciously expensive. I don't know why people say scanlations are free... they're not. You pay for the bandwitdth to download them. You just don't notice it unless you smash through your ISP's cap and get massively charged. And the time to download. With my connection it's faster to go buy a couple of DvD's, rather than torrent them and deal with spotty quality, inconsistent translations, and irritating fonts.

This is because of the concept of Externalities. People think that scanlations, fansubs and so on are free because they don't pay for them. But someone pays for them, its just not you the end user. And the Externalities on such things do exist, its just the proponents of "post scarcity IP" don't want to admit they exist.
--------------------
Epsilon

[Dartz]

That might be because I didn't set that flag on my profile, and the forum just defaulted.

This is because of the concept of Externalities. People think that scanlations, fansubs and so on are free because they don't pay for them. But someone pays for them, its just not you the end user. And the Externalities on such things do exist, its just the proponents of "post scarcity IP" don't want to admit they exist.

It depends. While I'm downloading, I can't play games online. I can't watch youtube videos. I can't do anything because the torrent stream absolutely hammers my connection if I want it to be done in a reasonable amount of time. It's why I don't actually download much. I think the last thing was Eva 2.22, which I'll end up buying anyway because I'm that much of a fanboy. It's actually quite inconvenient for me to do. I still pay for the bandwidth, and for the actual time taken to download...

Not to mention that the quality of official releases is generally better anyway these days. I mean, I've got my Gunbuster DvD beside me, and compared to the torrent I have of the same show, not only is the video and audio quality better, not only are the translations clearer... but I get a really nice box, and a booklet to go with it with some interesting info inside, along with all the Science lessons. £40 sterling, my monthly internet connection is €50... with a 30GB data transfer cap. Assuming I seed 1:1, that uses up half of that bandwidth to download or more, and I don't get the nice touchy-feely things, nor a box to display proudly on my shelf.

There's a certain pride from having real things, after all. I wall of shelves filled with DvD's and manga looks far more impressive than a spinning HDD.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Ayiekie]

People in these arguments always post their anecdotal evidence as if it means something. It doesn't. You are one person, and the fact that (according to you, who have a vested interest in believing that way) you bought more anime/manga/video games/music/whatever due to piracy means absolutely jack squat. In the real world market, piracy decreases sales overall. This is readily observable by looking at markets (for instance, software in China) where copyright is not respected at all - legitimate sales collapse completely, and only software that can't be run without legitimate copies (notably MMORPGs) sell in quantity. I'll take the evidence of a billion people over your bookshelf (and China is hardly the only example), and so will anybody who aspires to discuss the topic with intellectual honesty.

(However, I shan't post anymore after this unless a topic is moved/started in Politics, since that's clearly where it's going. ;p)

[Morganite]

And why do you have the right to follow it immediatly?

Given the lack of demonstrated harm, why not? If you're buying the official releases, and thus providing your bit of financial support to everyone in the chain, where is the issue?

(Also, it really is more like years than months in a lot of cases. Especially if the company that was doing the official release stops. Looks like it was about four years between when Raijin Comics shut down and Tokyopop picking up Mamotte Shugogetten. Of course, I don't think that manga had a fan translation either...)

I've yet to see definitive evidence that fnasubs of MoHS masisvely increased sales. I tend to assume the reason that good series are successful is because (shock and awe!) they are good series. I have seen evidence where available fansubs decreased the marketability of an anime: the original Negima anime series flopped in the states because so many people had downloaded the fansubs and decided it was crap. Then there is the evidence of Taiwan and the massive illegal markets that grew up when no copyright laws were enforced and how much damage they've done.

Wouldn't your argument about quality and success run in reverse for Negima then, suggesting that even without fansubs it would have failed due to being crap?

The Taiwan situation isn't really comparable, due to the focus there on making items that mimic the actual product. It's not like OneManga was printing copies of things and selling them for $6 a volume. That would actually be displacing the market for physical copies, which people seem to want despite free (legal or not) digital copies.

Never mind the bandwith needed to suck all that down must be hellaciously expensive.

Depends. In the US, for instance, it seems to be pretty rare to have such a thing as a monthly cap. More likely to just be a per-second rate that it can do, and a flat fee. What makes this sort of behavior interesting to me is that it's possible for someone to acquire things without a lot of conscious effort, or even an active interest in any particular item - given enough bandwidth, people will download things they will never actually consume, without necessarily even *knowing* that any given thing was included.

It's not quite like having books that self-replicate, but it's probably close enough.

Ayiekie - Will you accept the evidence of the Baen Free Library? The one where they found out that giving away free digital copies of a book resulted in selling large numbers of print copies?

I don't find the PC software market to be comparable on this issue, since the average piece of software functions the same whether bought, downloaded, or both, whereas those states lead to major differences in the experience with a book.

-Morgan.

[WengFook]

Valles wrote:

First presuming that there is and will be one, of course. Or that the degree of effort and money required for Japanese instruction is rated as less troublesome than doing without the reading material in question.

Another point for not waiting for the official English release is that sometimes the quality of the official translation is worse than what the scanlators offer. And to add injury you've paid good money for it. :S

Epsilon wrote:
 I've yet to see definitive evidence that fnasubs of MoHS masisvely
increased sales. I tend to assume the reason that good series are
successful is because (shock and awe!) they are good series. I have seen
evidence where available fansubs decreased the marketability of an
anime: the original Negima anime series flopped in the states because so
many people had downloaded the fansubs and decided it was crap. Then
there is the evidence of Taiwan and the massive illegal markets that
grew up when no copyright laws were enforced and how much damage they've
done.

I don't understand. I followed you to the point where you said people will like a series on its own merits if it is good, but then you said that because people didn't like the Negima fansub, the sales for it suffered. So from what I understand if lots of people buy an anime title then its good, but has nothing to do with the fansub people watched. But when sales drop like a rock, then its must be the fansub's fault. Somehow.

Ayiekie said:
People in these arguments always post their anecdotal evidence as if it
means something. It doesn't. You are one person, and the fact that
(according to you, who have a vested interest in believing that way) you
bought more anime/manga/video games/music/whatever due to piracy means
absolutely jack squat. In the real world market, piracy decreases sales
overall. This is readily observable by looking at markets (for instance,
software in China) where copyright is not respected at all - legitimate
sales collapse completely, and only software that can't be run without
legitimate copies (notably MMORPGs) sell in quantity. I'll take the
evidence of a billion people over your bookshelf (and China is hardly
the only example), and so will anybody who aspires to discuss the topic
with intellectual honesty.

You are correct. But until I see some numbers, its hard to use a wide generalization like all piracy decreases sales overall. In this case its entirely possible that it helps sales more than it hinders. I will admit it might be a romanticized viewpoint, but truth is sometimes stranger than fiction  
I think everyone is getting tied up in the legalese and morality of the issue. On one hand as was pointed out earlier, some of the original publisher's in Japan view scanlation as free advertising for their product. On the other hand the publishers across the sea try to paint it in negative lights comparing it to piracy and stealing. The bottomline is different business models work differently. Scanlations fills in a gap in the demand and until the publishers change their operating model they are going to be stuck with them
_________________________________
Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World.

[Sweno]

I think that Ayiekie's point of piracy = hurt sales may be (and probably is) true for software.
But books are not software, and there are distinct benefits to having a physical copy over a digital copy (even if I sometimes forget that).

But Ayiekie requested evidence, so here is what I can find:
Baen (previously mentioned)
Scientific study of 41 books and how free ebooks affected sales (hint: they went up)
And several authors have also tried this out and found it works:
Nathan Henrion, Peter Watts and Cory Doctorow are just the ones I can remember. I'm sure there are others out there that I don't know of.
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy

[Bob Schroeck]

If all the free scanlations of Negima (or whatever) dried up tomorrow would you stop purchasing the official releases?

No, because I'm well and truly hooked.  But the question is, would the publisher have gotten my money without the scanlations' existence?  Nope.  I never would have bothered looking at it on the shelf (because I rarely check out manga on the shelf).  But because I got a chance to get involved in the story via the fansites, I've ended up spending no less than $250 so far on the extant volumes, and plan to continue buying.  And if the publisher can't work out the ROI there, well, that's their problem.

Let's
accept the premise that the free scanlation sold you on Manga X
(Negima, FMA, whatever) like has been brought up in this thread. Okay,
you're sold now. You like Manga X enough to purchase the official
releases. Why are you continuing to read the scanlations?
The official releases are coming out because you are buying them. Would
you stop buying the official releases because you couldn't read the
latest scanlations?

Because I don't want to wait a year or more when I can have the latest stuff now.  I'll gladly pay for it -- and read it again -- when it gets to North America, but I want to know now how they get out of the Lotus Eater Machine, for example.  If I have to, I'll wait, but if I have the option, I'll take it.  The publisher gets my money either way.

Learn Japanese then?

How convenient that I've lost my job and I can now devote my all time to learning one of the most difficult languages for English speakers to acquire, so that I may have the moral high ground with which to enjoy my mass-produced foreign pop culture.
Sorry, Epsilon, but you make it sound like it's just a quick afternoon's study and a little effort later that evening and Shazam! Instant mastery.  No.  I know people who've got degrees in Japanese who struggle with some of the stuff in manga.  Remember that we're talking about entertainment here.  Once it becomes a chore, it stops being entertainment.

And why do you have the right to follow it immediatly?

What a curiously arrogant question.  Would I have the right to follow it immediately if I were borrowing a copy from a library?  I mean, it's functionally the same -- one entity buys a single copy and makes it available to a theoretically unlimited number of other readers.  (And before you object that the two are not the same, allow me to point out that there are -- admittedly extreme -- elements in the publishing industry who, following the model of the RIAA, gripe audibly that lending libraries are piracy, pure and simple, and should be somehow regulated or controlled so as to prevent/recover lost revenue.)

People
in these arguments always post their anecdotal evidence as if it means
something. It doesn't. You are one person, and the fact that (according
to you, who have a vested interest in believing that way) you bought
more anime/manga/video games/music/whatever due to piracy means
absolutely jack squat.

It's a curious thing... in large quantities anecdotal evidence becomes somehow ennobled and becomes marketing data...

In the real world market, piracy decreases sales
overall. This is readily observable by looking at markets (for
instance, software in China) where copyright is not respected at all -
legitimate sales collapse completely, and only software that can't be
run without legitimate copies (notably MMORPGs) sell in quantity. I'll
take the evidence of a billion people over your bookshelf (and China is
hardly the only example), and so will anybody who aspires to discuss
the topic with intellectual honesty.

You will, of course, have to find honest and verified statistics about losses first... as multiple threads (with linked references) over in Politics have shown in the past, just about every financial claim about the "cost" of piracy has turned out to be at the very least grossly exaggerated and at worst completely fabricated by industries that have a vested interest in a two-hundred-year-old distribution system.
And I think Sweno's counterarguments are sufficient to the task beyond that.
And let me just remind everyone that yes, I am a published author, and yes, for every "pirate" copy of one of my works out there I have theoretically been robbed of anywhere from 25 to 50 cents -- assuming said pirate would have ever bought a copy in the first place.  Even so, I can smell the bullshit as it wafts from the office towers in NY and LA.

Epsilon wrote:

I have seen
evidence where available fansubs decreased the marketability of an
anime: the original Negima anime series flopped in the states because so
many people had downloaded the fansubs and decided it was crap.

I
don't understand. I followed you to the point where you said people
will like a series on its own merits if it is good, but then you said
that because people didn't like the Negima fansub, the sales for it
suffered. So from what I understand if lots of people buy an anime
title then its good, but has nothing to do with the fansub people
watched. But when sales drop like a rock, then its must be the fansub's
fault. Somehow.

Wengfook's got the right of it there, Epsilon. What you've written reads suspiciously like "heads I win, tails you lose".
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[CattyNebulart]

We have been over this repeatedly, depending on assumptions the ideal length of copyright for a book, from a purely economic perspective, is somewhere between 6 and 2 years. Current copyright tends to be upward from 80 years, which means that it is too long by an order of magnitude.

The real problem with free distribution of books is that it tends to increase the blockbuster effect (eg one work takes a vastly disproportionate share of all the money spent in the system.) this is not yet settled science and has not yet been observed because studies so far have focused on small sets of books, not entire markets, where the effect of free copies has been demonstrated to be remarkably good advertising, but the money spent on those books was not spent on something else.

And digital distribution has much lower barriers to entry, so the middlemen might face more competition and not get as big a cut, which means that everyone but the middlemen would benefit (eg creators get more money, consumers get cheaper goods).

In any industry where the consumer had a choice unskippable adds on DVDs against piracy would sink the company, ad yet somehow that is not the case with entertainment. Similarly out of print books should be put online for free, or for a small fee, since if it's out of print it clearly should be worthless.

Current Intelectal Propety laws are a travesty that harm society as a whole. Studies have indicated that there is a net cost to having the patent system as opposed to not having it, and with copyright drastically shorter terms should be used to make economic sense. There is some call for a far more radical rethink of how copyright law should work, but I haven't seen any alternatives that would work well. I apologize for just linking to an article instead of some actual papers, but I am too tired to track down the papers I have read on the subject.

These days I pretty much only buy my books from bean because they give it to me as html files. not ideal but I can always process it myself if I want something better. Some of the books I read for free I have bought copies of,including several copies of 1632, mostly as Christmas gifts. Most I have decided where not worth it, and several of the books I did buy I never would have bought if I had read a bit of them first.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Epsilon]

If all the free scanlations of Negima (or whatever) dried up tomorrow would you stop purchasing the official releases?

No, because I'm well and truly hooked.  But the question is, would the publisher have gotten my money without the scanlations' existence?  Nope.  I never would have bothered looking at it on the shelf (because I rarely check out manga on the shelf).  But because I got a chance to get involved in the story via the fansites, I've ended up spending no less than $250 so far on the extant volumes, and plan to continue buying.  And if the publisher can't work out the ROI there, well, that's their problem.

Why do you get to make this decision for them? And you can't say you never would have been interested. You're making assumptions about a hypothetical. What if (ublisher of Negima) offered the first, say, three volumes for download? First ten? It's happened with series here in the US before.

Let's
accept the premise that the free scanlation sold you on Manga X
(Negima, FMA, whatever) like has been brought up in this thread. Okay,
you're sold now. You like Manga X enough to purchase the official
releases. Why are you continuing to read the scanlations?
The official releases are coming out because you are buying them. Would
you stop buying the official releases because you couldn't read the
latest scanlations?

Because I don't want to wait a year
or more when I can have the latest stuff now.  I'll gladly pay for it --
and read it again -- when it gets to North America, but I want to know now
how they get out of the Lotus Eater Machine, for example.  If I have
to, I'll wait, but if I have the option, I'll take it.  The publisher
gets my money either way.

Why do you have to read the manga scanlations to do that. I can find spoilers for series without ever going to a scanlation site. I follow Bleach and Fairy Tail up to current releases without once downloading a scanlation.

Learn Japanese then?

How
convenient that I've lost my job and I can now devote my all time to
learning one of the most difficult languages for English speakers to
acquire, so that I may have the moral high ground with which to enjoy my
mass-produced foreign pop culture.
Sorry, Epsilon, but you make it sound like it's just a quick afternoon's study and a little effort later that evening and Shazam!
Instant mastery.  No.  I know people who've got degrees in Japanese who
struggle with some of the stuff in manga.  Remember that we're talking
about entertainment here.  Once it becomes a chore, it stops being entertainment.

And similarly, why does it matter if a company doens't want you illegally downloading their work. It's just entertainment. What does it matter if you have to wait six months for the next chapter? It's not like reading the latest issue of Negima will magically give you a job, or failure to do so will cause you to die of cancer.

And why do you have the right to follow it immediatly?

What
a curiously arrogant question.  Would I have the right to follow it
immediately if I were borrowing a copy from a library?  I mean, it's
functionally the same -- one entity buys a single copy and makes it
available to a theoretically unlimited number of other readers.  (And
before you object that the two are not the same, allow me to point out
that there are -- admittedly
extreme -- elements in the publishing industry who, following the model
of the RIAA, gripe audibly that lending libraries are piracy, pure and simple, and should be somehow regulated or controlled so as to prevent/recover lost revenue.)

Libraries are legal means of getting access to material. And frankly, I'm not the RIAA so stop ascribing the arguments of the RIAA to me. And i find the argument that you shoudl have free unlimited access to anything you damn well please arrogant in the extreme.
I'll remember that next time I have the opportunity to download one of your books, or pay for it.

People
in these arguments always post their anecdotal evidence as if it means
something. It doesn't. You are one person, and the fact that (according
to you, who have a vested interest in believing that way) you bought
more anime/manga/video games/music/whatever due to piracy means
absolutely jack squat.

It's a curious thing... in large quantities anecdotal evidence becomes somehow ennobled and becomes marketing data...

Sceintific surveys are different from anecdotal evidence for reason you are too smart not to already know, Bob.

In the real world market, piracy decreases sales
overall. This is readily observable by looking at markets (for
instance, software in China) where copyright is not respected at all -
legitimate sales collapse completely, and only software that can't be
run without legitimate copies (notably MMORPGs) sell in quantity. I'll
take the evidence of a billion people over your bookshelf (and China is
hardly the only example), and so will anybody who aspires to discuss
the topic with intellectual honesty.

You will, of course,
have to find honest and verified statistics about losses first... as
multiple threads (with linked references) over in Politics have shown in
the past, just about every financial claim about the "cost" of piracy
has turned out to be at the very least grossly exaggerated and at worst
completely fabricated by industries that have a vested interest in a
two-hundred-year-old distribution system.

I suggest you look up information about the software industry in China and Taiwan.

Epsilon wrote:

I have seen
evidence where available fansubs decreased the marketability of an
anime: the original Negima anime series flopped in the states because so
many people had downloaded the fansubs and decided it was crap.

I
don't understand. I followed you to the point where you said people
will like a series on its own merits if it is good, but then you said
that because people didn't like the Negima fansub, the sales for it
suffered. So from what I understand if lots of people buy an anime
title then its good, but has nothing to do with the fansub people
watched. But when sales drop like a rock, then its must be the fansub's
fault. Somehow.

Wengfook's got the right of it there, Epsilon. What you've written reads suspiciously like "heads I win, tails you lose".

He asked for a case where availablity of fansubs killed a market. Negima the anime is one of those. Whether it desrved to tank or not is beside the point. Fansubs can hurt a market, via poor word of mouth, just as easily as they can help a market. It's a wash.
Frankly, I find the idea that extremely popular series like Haruhi are successful solely because of fansubs really unsupportable. The fact such series were popular in Japan probably has more to do with why it was popular over hear as well. Unless you are going to claim that fansubs are responsible for the success of Haruhi in Japan?
---------------
Epsilon

[Epsilon]

We have been over this repeatedly, depending on assumptions the ideal length of copyright for a book, from a purely economic perspective, is somewhere between 6 and 2 years. Current copyright tends to be upward from 80 years, which means that it is too long by an order of magnitude.

When was Watchmen published?
When was the Watchmen movie produced?
NOW! And this is the hard part:
How many years between these two events?
-------------------
Epsilon

[robkelk]

Frankly, I find the idea that extremely popular series like Haruhi are successful solely because of fansubs really unsupportable. The fact such series were popular in Japan probably has more to do with why it was popular over hear as well. Unless you are going to claim that fansubs are responsible for the success of Haruhi in Japan?

Considering that it was impossible to watch Haruhi in most of Japan when it was first broadcast, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that fansubs made the show popular there as well. Or, at least, that illegal raws made the show popular.

(Thanks to the mountainous terrain, there isn't a lot of cable or satellite television available in Japan. It's a crapshoot whether one can get any particular channel in any particular city, not counting Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka. Even Sapporo and Hiroshima don't get all the shows. Good luck getting anything in a small town or a village.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

We have been over this repeatedly, depending on assumptions the ideal length of copyright for a book, from a purely economic perspective, is somewhere between 6 and 2 years. Current copyright tends to be upward from 80 years, which means that it is too long by an order of magnitude.

When was Watchmen published?
When was the Watchmen movie produced?
NOW! And this is the hard part:
How many years between these two events?

If Watchmen had fallen out of copyright earlier, would the movie have been made any faster? (I recall the biggest problem they had was in getting the rights to make the movie.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Ayiekie]

If Watchmen had fallen out of copyright earlier, would the movie have been made any faster? (I recall the biggest problem they had was in getting the rights to make the movie.)

Breaking my rule just to make one factual correction here.
You are incorrect. The rights were acquired in 1986, in fact.