Well HERE's a creative response to the Mosque at ground zero!

[Logan Darklighter]

Current media narrative on the Ground Zero mosque: Shining beacon of liberal values bursting through the overcast skies of American intolerance.
What do you want to bet that the media narrative on the GG gay bar will be: Dangerous provocation that needlessly inflames cultural tensions in the ostensible service of liberal values.

How very insensitive.

I’m announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space.

This is not a joke. I’ve already spoken to a number of investors, who have pledged their support in this bipartisan bid for understanding and tolerance.

As you know, the Muslim faith doesn’t look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I’m building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world.

The goal, however, is not simply to open a typical gay bar, but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor, for example, will feature non-alcoholic drinks, since booze is forbidden by the faith. The bar will be open all day and night, to accommodate men who would rather keep their sexuality under wraps – but still want to dance.

Not an idea that would play well with Christians or Jews vis-a-vis property adjacent to a church or temple, but oh well: If we’re going to celebrate tolerance regardless of the sensitivities of the surrounding area, let’s celebrate! And the best part? Because, as we’ve been assured many times, the “Park51? cultural center will be a model of moderation, gay Muslim men don’t have to worry about being seen entering Gut’s establishment. Flaunt it all you want, fellas; you’re in Moderate Town, U.S.A., on that block. I look forward to the congratulatory Mike Bloomberg press conference.
Anyway, how about a few ideas - in the name of multiculturalism and diversity of course! Here is the Top Ten list of possible names for the new gay bar!
10:  "Muslim Brotherhood"

9:    "72 Virgins"

8:    "Sultans of Schwing!"
7:    "I Call It My Sword"
6:    "The Fertile Crescent Moon"
5:    "Kuran Kuran"
4:    "Midnight at the Oasis"
3:    "Princes of Persia"
2:    "Holiest of Holies"
And the number one possible name for the new gay bar - 
1:    "Submission"

-Logan
--------------------
(Edit: Had the idea to do the list as a Letterman Top Ten. It's even funnier that way.)

[robkelk]

Not an idea that would play well with Christians or Jews vis-a-vis property adjacent to a church or temple, but oh well: If we’re going to celebrate tolerance regardless of the sensitivities of the surrounding area, let’s celebrate!
...
C'mon! I'm sure we can all help out this wonderfully diverse and tolerant example of reaching out to bring two very different communities together with some more culturally diverse creativity! Won't you help out?

Only if one is also built next door to a church. If it isn't, then this isn't an example of "tolerance regardless of the sensitivities of the surrounding area".

Tolerance cuts both ways.

Edit: In this case, it's better to http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20100809.html]approach tolerance from the other direction...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[hmelton]

I can't site a source other than now very vague memories of a videos or sequences of photos showing Muslims crowds celebrating the destruction of the twin towers.

I seem to remember among the effigies and very large posters of the murder site and the posters of crippled american's covered in concrete dust was photoshopped pictures of the twin towers replaced with Mosque claiming this was now "holy ground".

I'm also pretty sure the muslims have a tradition of celebrating successful suicide attacks by building religious temples on or near the ground "blessed by blood".

howard melton

[Logan Darklighter]

Edit: In this case, it's better to approach tolerance from the other direction...

This is good to see. I fear it may be too little, too late at this stage. But good to see nonetheless. 

I'm going on the assumption that this... thing... is going to be built and that it's a fait accompli. Which means the fight changes from stopping it, to what do you -do- about it once it is built? 

Well - one idea is to make it difficult to extremely uncomfortable in a social way for any muslim to be seen going to and using that mosque, for one. Stage daily protests. Have people with cameras (from cell phones to more obvious camcorders) constantly filming who goes in and out of the place. Subject them to ridicule on a constant basis. Start up a restaurant across the street specializing in BBQ Pork ribs. 

And build things like the above. ANYthing to offend, disturb, or outrage the muslims using that site to the point where not enough use it so that it shuts down from lack of use and/or money coming in. 

Go after the Imam responsible for this. Subject him to personal ridicule. Make him the object of jokes. Investigate all his finances. Invade his personal space and ask difficult questions. As Saul Alinsky said in "Rules for Radicals": 

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

Expect a lot more of this in the coming months. It's just getting started. 

And BTW - there are over 50 mosques in the New York City area alone already. And I'm not suggesting doing that to any of them. Just this one.

(Also BTW, though I approve of the idea in the original post, as a practical matter it's really not going to work. I think there are ordnances against serving alcohol within a certain amount of feet from -any- place of worship. But I could be wrong. On the other hand, maybe they'll get around that by not serving alcohol?)

[Valles]

...are you seriously fucking advocating doing that?! That-that-that-that-...

No.

Ignore it. Seriously.

Al Quaida's choice of religious delusions is fucking irrelevant to anything actually important. They get recruits because there are large portions of the world full of jealous and ignorant people whose lives suck ass, and they do what they do because the ones they pick are vicious assholes.
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Logan Darklighter]

Who said anything about Al Queda? As far as I know this isn't Al Queda. Where did you get that I was going on about them? You said it yourself. They are for the moment irrelevant to this.

And am I serious? About advocating this sort of thing? Why wouldn't I be? It may be provocative, but it's non-violent. And it's amusing. May as well use every trick in the book. The people wanting to build this Mosque sure have! And the one thing they DON'T seem to have - is a sense of humor. 

In a battle of wits between people who have a sense of humor vs those who don't, bet on the guy with the whoopie cushion. 

[M Fnord]

PROTIP: Your puerile Muslim Kryptonite bullshit is about as funny as "Disaster Movie."
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Epsilon]

In a battle of wits between people who have a sense of humor vs those who don't, bet on the guy with the whoopie cushion. 

What's amazing is how ironic it is you consider this kind of shit funny. I bet you think calling someone a "fag" is funny, too.
---------------
Epsilon

[robkelk]

In a battle of wits between people who have a sense of humor vs those who don't, bet on the guy with the whoopie cushion.

I'd rather bet on the guy with a sense of humour, instead of the guy with a whoopie cushion...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[M Fnord]

Well, would you look at that. Gay bars near the location of Cordoba House. And they're not bad jokes created by homophobic conservatives, either!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Logan Darklighter]

Funny how thin-skinned you people are, when no less a liberal (and Gay!) Columnist Andrew Sullivan likes it.

Fox News' Mr Gutfeld proposes building a gay bar right next to the Cordoba Initiative complex in downtown Manhattan. Fantastic idea. That's exactly the right response to an expression of religious freedom: the expression of freedom for gay people as well. In fact, it's such a great idea that it could be followed across the country: gay bars right next to churches and mosques that condemn homosexuality.

Mediaite's Jon Bershad calls this "one of the most brilliant pieces of provocations in recent years. ...

I, personally, think it’s a brilliant idea. I absolutely abhor all of this anti-mosque nonsense currently going on in this country. It’s disgusting bigotry plain and simple. However, just because I support Muslim Americans in their fight against anti-Islam prejudice, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get a few dings for their religion’s own prejudice against homosexuals. If you want to be treated fairly, you should treat others fairly as well. Still though, the only thing that would make this plan perfect would be if Gutfeld created a chain of gay bars and plopped them down next to churches and synagogues since it’s not like those religions have been super open-minded.

Naturally I don't agree with him on the Mosque thing. but hey, if he and I can see eye to eye on this, what's not to like?
Epison wrote:

What's amazing is how ironic it is you consider this kind of shit funny. I bet you think calling someone a "fag" is funny, too.

Funny how you seem to think I'm anti-gay or homophobic because of this. Way to miss the point. But then I wasn't really expecting anyone in this community to 'get it' anyway.
So predictable.
Speaking of which, I'm expecting a long, drawn out post from Ayiekie to rake me over the coals for being a racist or homophobic cretin in 5... 4... 3...

[Epsilon]

Funny how thin-skinned you people are, when no less a liberal (and Gay!) Columnist Andrew Sullivan likes it.

Thin-skinned? You just don't get it, do you? Andrew Sullivan does not talk for all the liberal gay people. All of you conservatives talking about think-skins don't get what it means to not exist in a world of overwhelming privelege like you do. Yes, Islam has some very, very poor history with GLBT people. But clean up your own fucking house before you start criticizing them.

Funny how you seem to think I'm anti-gay or homophobic because of this.
Way to miss the point. But then I wasn't really expecting anyone in this
community to 'get it' anyway.

No, I think you are racist and homphobic because of a long history of being racist and homophobic on this board. 
----------------
Epsilon

[Ayiekie]

Speaking of which, I'm expecting a long, drawn out post from Ayiekie to rake me over the coals for being a racist or homophobic cretin in 5... 4... 3...

Sorry to disappoint you? I actually think this is very funny for two reasons:
1) Now we know what the urban equivalent to the "pigs are Muslim kryptonite" thing.
2) It is absolutely hilarious that this is making a snide point about how those barbaric Muslims don't like homosexuals. Coming from an American, that's an... interesting point to pick on.
I don't actually think it's a great idea to put gay bars next to churches or mosques because it's a pointless provocation that is likely to end up with patrons of either or both assaulting the others (verbally or, I fear, physically). I think the idea of any singles bar is to have a good time and try to meet someone, and I think putting them in a hostile area is counterproductive to that. Is anyone in a bar like that going to feel comfortable about trying to meet someone? This goes double for any proposed bar near Cordoba house because it will be under intense media scrutiny (and thus destroying the anonymity that's supposed to be a big draw for Muslim homosexuals to go there), although of course that will eventually fade.
I don't really care about the plan other than that; I certainly think he should be able to do so if he has the money and goes about it in a legal way. I don't think it will get the reaction he expects, given many liberal Muslims are as fine with homosexuality as liberal Christians are.

[Logan Darklighter]

I disagree on a couple of minor points, Ayiekie, but mostly I see your point about the possibility of the bar not working out because the patrons themselves would be uncomfortable.
Wow. That was actually reasonable! I take back what I said before. You surprised me!

[Ayiekie]

To follow up, since I don't want to come off as only caring about the homosexuals in this case, I would also argue that patrons of churches or mosques also have a right to feel comfortable in their centres of worship, to an extent. This extent does not include being shielded from the existence of things they disapprove of (so I'm not against opening a facility in the area per se), but I do think it's wrong if they were to be accosted (much less assaulted) for merely going to their place of worship. I would condemn anyone who took, or promoted, such actions.

To use an analogy, I was fine with people finding out about and harassing businesses or individuals that supported Prop 8 - that is a direct response to their actions. I would be iffy, but ultimately okay, about picketing a Mormon Church over it (as the Church as a whole could clearly said to have taken a side in the issue; this isn't applicable to Islam or Judaism, however, as well as most Protestant Christians). Picketing is not directly harmful and there's no reason people should be shielded from opposing views. I would not be okay with harassing people directly as they went to church, or random Mormons on the bus. That's victimising people who have not demonstrably done anything wrong.

[Logan Darklighter]

Fair enough all around. Can't see anything to disagree with there, really. Just to be clear though - when you say "harassing businesses or individuals that supported Prop 8" I assume you mean individuals in the sense of public individuals? Famous people like entertainers or those in government, that is. Not a private individual who supports it, right? The context of your later paragraph seems to indicate that, but I'm just making sure.

[Logan Darklighter]

Thin-skinned? You just don't get it, do you? Andrew Sullivan does not talk for all the liberal gay people. All of you conservatives talking about think-skins don't get what it means to not exist in a world of overwhelming privelege like you do. Yes, Islam has some very, very poor history with GLBT people. But clean up your own fucking house before you start criticizing them.

Ok. Before I rip into this. I want to be clear. When you say "privilege" what exactly do you mean? Economic? Social? What?

[Epsilon]

Ok. Before I rip into this. I want to be clear. When you say "privilege" what exactly do you mean? Economic? Social? What?

All of it.
---------------
Epsilon

[rmthorn]

And a Muslim's homophobia is sillier and needs to be made fun of more than a Christian's because....?

[Ayiekie]

Fair enough all around. Can't see anything to disagree with there, really. Just to be clear though - when you say "harassing businesses or individuals that supported Prop 8" I assume you mean individuals in the sense of public individuals? Famous people like entertainers or those in government, that is. Not a private individual who supports it, right? The context of your later paragraph seems to indicate that, but I'm just making sure.

I think a private individual who took public actions on the issue (donating, publically supporting it) is perfectly fair game for being picketed or otherwise criticised for their actions (harassment is perhaps too loaded a word). For instance, if they own a business, organising a boycott against that business (which happened). Picketing their house if they'd protested for it, sure, that's tit for tat. Accosting them in such a way that they reasonably feared for their safety or their family's safety, no, that's wrong (personally accosting them on their way to work, for instance, or harassing their children).
I don't think it would be fair to harass individuals over their private actions such as voting, however.

[Logan Darklighter]

Then what exactly makes you think I'm privileged?
I'm out of work. Have been for the better part of a year. It's so bad at this point that I've actually had to stoop to going on foodstamps. But even in good times, I've never made more than 30K. And that's probably optimistic at that. So no economic privilege here.
Social? Feh. Try having any social clout when you're in your 40s and overweight. Half the problem of me getting a job I suspect is age and weight discrimination.
You got a job that gets you above the poverty line? Then you are more privileged than me. Don't start with that.

Yes, Islam has some very, very poor history with GLBT people. But clean
up your own fucking house before you start criticizing them.

Whose "fucking house" are we talking about, here? If you're trying to drag Christianity into it again. Don't bother. I'll say what I've said before in this regard. I'm not arguing from the position of being a Christian. I abhor their anti-gay dogma (false dogma) as much as Islam's. But as Rev so aptly put it in another post - you really don't have to worry about Christianity because it's teeth have been pulled. Not so with Islam.

No, I think you are racist and homphobic because of a long history of being racist and homophobic on this board. 

So is it about me personally then? Cite source and quote.
I'm tired and going to bed though. Tomorrow I'll respond to anything new.

[Logan Darklighter]

And a Muslim's homophobia is sillier and needs to be made fun of more than a Christian's because....?

*Sigh* I keep SAYING this. Maybe you'll hear it this time. I DON'T think Christianity is in a privileged position on this. I'm not arguing from that position. I think many sects of Christianity (though not all) are just as stupidly dogmatic about it as Islam is.
But society at large has been pillorying Christianity on that point for decades now. And with Islam it's new. People hadn't noticed it before. Now they do. It's their turn to be ridiculed.
Clear enough?

[Logan Darklighter]

Fair enough all around. Can't see anything to disagree with there, really. Just to be clear though - when you say "harassing businesses or individuals that supported Prop 8" I assume you mean individuals in the sense of public individuals? Famous people like entertainers or those in government, that is. Not a private individual who supports it, right? The context of your later paragraph seems to indicate that, but I'm just making sure.

I think a private individual who took public actions on the issue (donating, publically supporting it) is perfectly fair game for being picketed or otherwise criticised for their actions (harassment is perhaps too loaded a word). For instance, if they own a business, organising a boycott against that business (which happened). Picketing their house if they'd protested for it, sure, that's tit for tat. Accosting them in such a way that they reasonably feared for their safety or their family's safety, no, that's wrong (personally accosting them on their way to work, for instance, or harassing their children).
I don't think it would be fair to harass individuals over their private actions such as voting, however.

Right then. No problems there. Carry on.

[rmthorn]

And a Muslim's homophobia is sillier and needs to be made fun of more than a Christian's because....?

*Sigh* I keep SAYING this. Maybe you'll hear it this time. I DON'T think Christianity is in a privileged position on this. I'm not arguing from that position. I think many sects of Christianity (though not all) are just as stupidly dogmatic about it as Islam is.
But society at large has been pillorying Christianity on that point for decades now. And with Islam it's new. People hadn't noticed it before. Now they do. It's their turn to be ridiculed.
Clear enough?

My comment was not addressed at you, or any poster in this thread.  It was my opinion on the topic in general.  

[Epsilon]

Then what exactly makes you think I'm privileged?

Your attitude, mainly, but also your statements here and in other threads.

I'm out of work. Have been for the better part of a year. It's so
bad at this point that I've actually had to stoop to going on
foodstamps. But even in good times, I've never made more than 30K. And
that's probably optimistic at that. So no economic privilege here.
Social?
Feh. Try having any social clout when you're in your 40s and
overweight. Half the problem of me getting a job I suspect is age and
weight discrimination.
You got a job that gets you above the poverty line? Then you are more privileged than me. Don't start with that.

And now comes the Misery Poker. You are enourmously priveleged Logan. If you don't beleieve it ask yourself this: "Would I rather be a poor man in Africa?"
Privelege is often invisible to those who have it. You don't know exactly how many advantages you have over people of colour, or the wrong sexuality, or who are transgendered and so on and so forth. I mean, nobody is going to beat you to death for being fat and forty plus Logan, a privelege not shared by gay people in your country.

Whose
"fucking house" are we talking about, here? If you're trying to drag
Christianity into it again. Don't bother. I'll say what I've said before
in this regard. I'm not arguing from the position of being a Christian.
I abhor their anti-gay dogma (false dogma) as much as Islam's. But as
Rev so aptly put it in another post - you really don't have to worry
about Christianity because it's teeth have been pulled. Not so with
Islam.

You're misusing RevDark's words here. Christinaity has had its teeth pulled in the US but then, so has Islam. But there are millions of dead African, or soon to be dead Africans with the AIDS virus, who would be in a much better place if the Catholic Chruch really did have its teeth pulled. And its not like Islam has the patent on religious violence, even today. What was the religious affiliation of the man who killed that abortion doctor? How about Fred Phelps et al?
But it extends beyond just Christinaity. It extends to America as a whole. Mexico just managed to make gay marriage legal, why can't you guys do it?
Also, I'm not going to start combing through the entire board for all your homophobia and racism.
---------------
Epsilon