The New Alabama immigration law

[ordnance11]

I finally had a chance to look into the new Alabama immigration law, aka the Beason-Hammon  Taxpayer and Citizen  Protection Act.
It's about 70 pages long, but if you want the highlights, here it is:

In an echo of the Arizona law, the Alabama legislation requires that
police, in the course of any lawful "stop, detention or arrest," make a
reasonable attempt to determine a person's citizenship and immigration
status, given a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is an immigrant,
unless doing so would hinder an investigation.




It outlaws illegal immigrants from receiving any state or local public
benefits, bars them from enrolling in or attending public colleges, and
prohibits them from applying for or soliciting work.
It forbids
the harboring and transport of illegal immigrants, and outlaws renting
them property or "knowingly" employing them for any work within the
state. It also makes it a "discriminatory practice" to fire, or decline
to hire, a legal resident when an illegal one is on the payroll.

The law criminalizes "dealing in false identification documents" and,
beginning April 1, will require every business in the state to verify
employees' immigration status using the federal E-Verify system.

It deems invalid any contract to which an illegal immigrant is a party
if the legal party in the contract has "direct or constructive
knowledge" that the other person was in the country illegally. And it
requires a citizenship check for people registering to vote.
For
opponents, one of the most disturbing provisions is a requirement that
officials in K-12 public schools determine whether students are illegal
immigrants. It will not ban the students from schools, but rather
require every school district to submit an annual report on the number
of presumed illegal immigrants to the state education board.

The link to the article is: right here
The full text link is :right here
When you  take away a person's right to live, work, conduct business, be detained by the cops because he looks like a foreigner unless proven otherwise and the privilege to drive (and arrest anyone who picks you up), you may drive him out of the state. Those that do remain turn into a permanent underclass. Much like the "Jim Crow" laws in the post ante-bellum south. The only things missing is the banning of marriage between foreigners and citizens and making all foreigners live in segregated areas.
I do not believe the Republicans of the Civil War fought to end slavery only to have those in their party 150 years later create an underclass whose economic and political status would the same as the blacks during the Jim Crowe era.
I will admit to my shame that I had not been following the political news coming out of Montgomery. One thing for sure, I will be switching parties.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Dartz]

requires that police, in the course of any lawful "stop, detention or arrest," make a reasonable attempt to determine a person's citizenship and immigration status, given a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is an immigrant,

Honestly, that's not much worse than many European countries. Most of it isn't.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[ordnance11]

But how do you determine "reasonable" suspicion"? Because he talks, acts and dresses out of the norm? He wears a funny hat? Where do you draw the line?
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Epsilon]

But how do you determine "reasonable" suspicion"?

"Is he brown?"
Also, I love how the illegal immigratants are basically going to be allowed to die. Remember that hospitals count as public services, so if an illegal immigrant comes into your emergency room, it is now illegal to provide him with medical aid!
------------
Epsilon

[Dartz]

That's a difficult thing. In an ideal world with honest cops, reasonable suspicion would mean just that, either based on an informant, or on them lying about things at a traffic stop.

In practice it'll probably mean "Just because I don't like you and feel the need to boost my ego by hassling someone who's got to take it, or I'll beat them and charge them with resisting arrest."
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Niteflier]

So you believe that you don't have to carry your government issued ID everywhere? That simply showing your driver's license to show that you are legally in residence is stupid?

[robkelk]

More that it shouldn't be necessary. The USA is, after all, a "free country".

But, then, I shouldn't be surprised. I recall a scene on one of Robert A. Heinlein's novels (I don't recall which one) where he showed how authoritarian and invasive government had become by having a character needing to show ID to get on an aircraft and having the character's luggage scanned...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[ordnance11]

Alabama Department of Motor Vehicles was already using the E-verify to screen applicants for Driver Licenses last winter when I decided to apply for an Alabama Drivers License. In effect, you need to have 3 forms of ID verifying that you are a citizen or a legal resident of the U.S. The funny thing is my badge and credentials issued by Uncle Sam does not count.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Epsilon]

So you believe that you don't have to carry your government issued ID everywhere? That simply showing your driver's license to show that you are legally in residence is stupid?

I do not, in fact, have any government issued ID in my wallet (the closest thing to that is my library card). I have never had any problem because of this, including the three times I was detained by the police for questioning.
-------------
Epsilon

[Rod.H]

If the Australian Fed government thought they could get away with it, I think they'd love to introduce something like that into law. Till then they'll just stick with stopping them on the water plus airside and the sweeps through the taxi drivers & the seasonal fruit & veg pickers.

Ord, I find it strange that your Federally issued documentation isn't accepted as a form of ID for the purposes of getting another. Down here if I needed a new drivers licence, passport or bank account and I had a official ID (warrant card, badge, photo security pass) from the appropriate State/Fed Government agency (DoJ, DoD, ATO, etc) it would count towards the 100-points standard we use, heck some of what I listed is good for 80 to 100 points.

[Black Aeronaut]

You know, the simple fact of the matter is that our economy is profoundly broken. Americans want better paying jobs so the form unions to strong-arm companies. Companies want cheaper prices, so they move their factories to other countries like China, Mexico, India, etc. Jobs start to become scarce in America. Immigrants are suddenly targeted because Companies in America know that they're a prime source of low-cost labor.

It's tough, but people need to realize that immigration is not the issue we should be focusing on. Sure, you get some bad elements mixed up in those illegal immigrants. Personally, it comes as no surprise considering how hard it is for the police down there to do their jobs (that is, getting homicidal maniacs behind bars before they have a chance to jump the border). Hell, even here in the US, look at how often someone splits for Mexico once things get too hot for them.

So, to the politicians: quit trying to fix crime, immigration, and all that other BS. Start working on the economy, the education system, and the health care system. No, it does not have to be in that order - in fact a good place to start is the healthcare system simply because it's what's giving retirees the most trouble. If we can reduce the cost of Medicare, then we can quit asking China for more money.

[CattyNebulart]

The American economy is far from broken it's just the usual Xenophobia. I hate humans sometimes.

The real problem is that the main job of the police is to maintain law and order, and this means above all that violent crime must be suppressed. If you get large communities where they can't or won't go to the police and can't or won't cooperate with the police you are going to get an entrenched criminal hotbed that is going to be very very difficult to deal with. And considering that for many their English isn't so good this is going to spread fear of the authorities far beyond Alabama's borders. This is a bad idea.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[ECSNorway]

No, the economy really is broken. Badly.

Also, the job of the police, by legal definition and court ruling, is to deter and investigate crime, not prevent it. Defending you from a criminal is supposed to be your own responsibility. More recently certain idiots in power have been pushing that more towards "let the criminal have what he/she/they want, defending yourself is wrong 'cause guns are scawwy!".
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Ayiekie]

ECSNorway wrote:Defending you from a criminal is supposed to be your own responsibility.

No it really, really isn't. That sort of macho bullshit gets more people killed than it helps. 

[Valles]

A government monopoly on force is kind of one of the fundamental building blocks of civilization - right up there with specialization of labor. Thinking that a law-abiding civilian like, oh, everyone on this forum would be able to keep up with the kind of society that would result from changing that because their ideology is pure or whatever-the-hell other reason is willful self-delusion, not a basis for policy public or private.
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[bmull]

ECSNorway wrote:Defending you from a criminal is supposed to be your own responsibility.

No it really, really isn't. That sort of macho bullshit gets more people killed than it helps. 

I could be reading Castle Rock v Gonzales incorrectly but it appears, to me, that the S.C.O.T.U.S. ruled in ECSNorway's way.

[Logan Darklighter]

A government monopoly on force is kind of one of the fundamental building blocks of civilization - 

Sure it is. All those kings and queens and princes and emperors and caliphs and czars have always wanted government monopoly on force.

That's one of THE fundamental DIFFERENCES between America and the rest of the world. We -don't- believe in that. The 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights is supposed to guarantee that our government does NOT have a monopoly on force. 

Yes I'm well aware that our government is more than able to overwhelm any household or property through force of arms. (The militarization of our police greatly worries me.) They will always have access to more firepower than any single person. But it's the principle of the thing. 

There should always be some question in the minds of government officials as to whether they can simply come in and take or exercise control over a man and/or the belongings that he rightfully owns by force. Keeps them at least semi-honest. That's the theory anyway. 

I would rather the government fear and respect an armed citizenry than the citizens be totally and completely at the mercy of the government. 

And - when it comes to personal defense, the cops can NEVER stop someone from murdering or hurting someone else. It's extraordinarily unlikely that a cop will be in the right place at the right time to reach you in order to help or stop a crime in progress. I agree with ECSNorway on this. They can deter criminals and make them think twice by being present. But they cannot stop a crime from happening where they are not. They can investigate a crime after it's happened. But they cannot prevent. 

[Dartz]

Even in this country you're allowed to shoot people on your property if their posing a direct threat. The only limit is that the force must be 'reasonable'. And the national zeitgeist with regard to firearms is so massively different due to the State facing a full-blown armed insurrection right after founding . Disarming the populace was a necessity to keep the whole lot flying.

The military is small. Cops are unnarmed. Farmers might have a pest-control shotgun. Works for us.

Military police are a bigger threat than an armed population, but an armed population only entrenches the need for military-style police and tends to escalate an action before it even begins. How many people have been shot by police because of a mistake? A mobile phone?
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Logan Darklighter]

Let me tell you a true story which is family related. This may be both a bad and a good example all at once. I'll put that caveat right up front. Let me explain why - 

My brother Russell is a good guy these days. Solid, dependable. Works construction on his own business. He does roofing and interiors. Builds cabinets. Makes sure fittings work. Can install and do maintenance on appliances. Basically he's a jack of all trades and a good one. And word of mouth gives him decent to good business even in this economy. 

He wasn't always that way though. From his teens through his twenties he had a drug problem. It really only got bad after I had left Texas to live in California for about 3 years. So I wasn't there for the tail end of it. I'll just say that from the age of 15 to about 25, Russ was NOT the brother I had grown up with. I disliked him intensely at that time. Still loved him as my brother. But couldn't stand to be around him for very long.

Long story short - he got on the bad side of a drug dealer. Dealer thought he owed him a lot of money. Dealer and his friends decided to get a pound of flesh, or worse. Russell heard about their plans beforehand through a third party. He went out driving in his truck with his shotgun one evening. Had at least one drink in him. Maybe more. Dealer and his friends are in 2 cars, and they spot and then follow Russ until they're in a semi-secluded area, then they blocked him. One car got ahead and angled a block, and the other car rear-ended him so he's stuck and can't move off the curb. Dealer and one of his buddies gets out of the front car. Whether they had weapons or not, Russell couldn't tell for certain, since it was very dark. But he knew the drug dealer had a gun because he'd seen it before. He didn't take a chance. He took his shotgun off the rack, aimed out the drivers side, and blew the dealer's chest out. Bastard died on the scene, while his "friends" all ran. (He thought one of them may have grabbed the dealer's gun off the ground as they left, which is why no weapon of theirs was found at the scene.)

Russell turned himself in. Claimed self-defense. Turned out the jury didn't see it that way, thanks to a slick lawyer and a family and friends (who Russell said were also in the 'business') claiming up and down that their son was a good boy who would never deal drugs. Played up the racist angle too, since we're caucasion and the dealer and family was hispanic. 

So my brother gets a 25 yr sentence for 1st degree Murder. Regardless of whether or not he got the right sentence, it may have turned out for the best. You could argue this is one case where the "rehabilitation" side of the prison system worked. I'm not sure I'd give the prison system that much credit. Russell wanted to straighten up. He'd had enough of his previous lifestyle. He was a model prisoner, and they parolled him after 6 years. He strictly obeyed all instructions by his parole officer for several years after that. He's now free and clear. 

Despite his other problems, Russell was no thief. He owned that shotgun legally in his own name. It was legal to carry it (at the time) in the fashion that he did. And I am DAMN glad he did. 

There is a saying - "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".  I firmly believe Russell defended himself properly at that particular moment. Could he have taken some other action beforehand that would have led to him not killing a man and going to jail? Almost certainly, and Russ would be the first to admit it. He's said more than once that if he'd been thinking clearly, he should have gone to the cops and given them information on the drug dealer. Told them everything. He says it was stupid to be out that night driving around. This is my brother TODAY. The responsible man with a son and a daughter. The man who won't touch alcohol or take any drug stronger than Tylenol. 

That he was railroaded somewhat by the system (in our families opinion the most he should have gotten was manslaughter) and spent time in prison in no way diminishes the fact that if he had not been carrying a gun that night. I would not have a brother now. 

And right the instant those assholes cornered him was no time to worry about whether the cops could be on the scene or not. He was either going to die or go to prison. Given that choice, both my brother and I are happy that he even had the 2nd option open. 

So no - you'll never, ever convince me that banning firearms from citizens is a good thing. Because all you'll do is make criminals out of law-abiding people, while the criminals will still have guns. Because they're criminals. I have a rather personal perspective on it.

[Epsilon]

So, he knew someone was out to kill him and he didn't go to the police? Your brother deserved jail time.
If your police can't protect you, then they re fucking crap police.
And you know how I know that your government is designed to protect the people? Because you have a standing army. If China or Russia or Iran or some asshole decides to get up in your shit you know who is going to protect you from them? Not your brother's shotgun rack. It will be the aircraft carriers and fighter jets and ground troops of your professional army whose job is to keep people from killing you.
That is the governments job. Heck, some people claim that is the governments only job. If someone is out to kill you, they step in and stop that shit. You don't go fucking vigilante.
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Epsilon

[Dartz]

Firearms aren't banned here. Far from it. They're hard to get, but that limits firearms mostly to enthusiasts who are going to bother getting to know how to use and respect them. At the same time, people don't especially feel the need to be armed. In general, in Europe firearms aren't really seen as things for self-defense, but as a sporting implement or hobby. People don't especially expect anyone else to be out armed in public, Irish cops don't expect suspects to have more than a knife, and I personally would feel uncomfortable having an armed police force, especially with some of the stories about US police coming out.

Making firearms too easy to acquire, you're increasing the chances criminals will be heavily armed, and you have to arm the police too. It tends to lead to things getting far more violent, far quicker.

It works for us.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Logan Darklighter]

Epsilon wrote:

---

So, he knew someone was out to kill him and he didn't go to the police? Your brother deserved jail time.

My point was not that he didn't deserve jail time, but that he didn't deserve to be DEAD. 

If your police can't protect you, then they re fucking crap police. 

This is already a given. 

And you know how I know that your government is designed to protect the people? Because you have a standing army. If China or Russia or Iran or some asshole decides to get up in your shit you know who is going to protect you from them? Not your brother's shotgun rack. It will be the aircraft carriers and fighter jets and ground troops of your professional army whose job is to keep people from killing you.

That was never my point. Why do you ALWAYS try to put words in my mouth that I did not say? You make assumptions about what I'm thinking based on... I don't know what you base them on. Not knowledge of me, that's for damn sure. You'll note in my post previous to this I acknowledge this fucking point already. 

That is the governments job. Heck, some people claim that is the governments only job. If someone is out to kill you, they step in and stop that shit. You don't go fucking vigilante.

I agree about the armed forces protecting from external threats. But I assume you simply ignored or held in utter contempt (as you usually do) ECSNorway's and my point about cops not being able to prevent crimes except by deterrence? They cannot be everywhere. Nor would we want them to be. I don't want to live in a police state. I do want the option to own and carry a gun and protect myself. 
Vigilantism is not what I recommend. It wouldn't be what my brother recommends either. I bet you missed the part where HE said he was being stupid at the time, too?

The story was not meant to recommend the kind of behavior that led to that point. I was only pointing out, that when things had gone to hell, (fully acknowledging that the hell was at least partially of Russell's own making) that in that one moment, he made the only choice he could in order to live. And had he not had that gun, he likely would not have lived. Because at that moment the police could not possibly have saved him. 

We are obviously talking about different countries and cultures here. Several posters here are from Canada. Dartz is in Ireland. Etc. Do not assume that just because I advocate gun rights and live in Texas that I recommend Wild West vigilantism. I have a certain contempt for certain aspects of how Police operate in this country currently. But that doesn't mean I think they are utterly useless or that we should not depend on them in certain circumstances. What I do say - is that you can't act and make decisions based on the idea that they are going to save your ass. YOU have to save your ass by making the right decisions and not getting into trouble in the first place. The best the cops can usually do is identify what and who killed you. It would be better not to allow the circumstances to get to the point where you have to defend yourself in the first place. But if you must, it's better to have the proper tools to do so. And the BEST tool for saving your own life versus someone who wishes to take it from you is a gun. 

[Wiregeek]

Epsilon, it's a plain and simple truth that our police are fucking crap, and they cannot protect us. In fact, they are not supposed to protect us, they are supposed to punish lawbreakers.

That's a very important and subtle difference.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[Black Aeronaut]

So, he knew someone was out to kill him and he didn't go to the police? Your brother deserved jail time.
If your police can't protect you, then they re fucking crap police.

Espsilon, need we remind you again about that court case where it was decided that, in accordance with the Constitution of the United States of America, that the Police, no matter at what level, are not necessarily there for you personal protection?  The only way he would have gotten police protection would be if he camped out by the precinct building... and then he would have been arrested for loitering, no matter what he would say about some dealer being out to get him.
In all reality, the police only really answer to the Mayor and the City Council.  If they aren't cracking down on drug dealers, then the police aren't either.

Dartz wrote:

---

Making firearms too easy to acquire, you're increasing the chances
criminals will be heavily armed, and you have to arm the police too. It
tends to lead to things getting far more violent, far quicker.

Sorry Dartz.  Wish this could be changed, but Pandora's Box got opened before the outset of the American Revolution.  In the Colonies, it was critical that firearms be in ready supply on the off-hand chance the Natives got pissed.  Sad, but true.  And the Colonists knew from what the natives told them that there was a helluva lotta land out there to be explored, surveyed, and colonized.  Because of this, the Founding Fathers figured that it would be best to allow people to defend themselves, simply because 1) it would be impossible to field an army big enough and fast enough to protect everyone, and 2) when people feel their lives are at risk they generally tend to feel better when they have a dependable weapon at the ready.  It would be evil to deprive people of such a thing.
Fast forward to the Westward Expansion.  The saying is quickly coined: "God made man but Sam Colt made them equal."  This is because Colt made inexpensive revolvers that were accurate and easy to care for.  It was a dangerous place at the time.  Native Americans outraged at being displaced by the settlers stalked the horizon, as did thieves, claim jumpers, and rapists.  They preyed upon anyone that seemed the least bit weak.  Even women carried guns at times - no shit, it was that bad.
And so, this is why guns are in ready supply in America, even after there is no more wilderness left to explore and the Natives have long since been pacified.  Though we still have, and always will have thieves and rapists to worry about.

---

Getting back on topic here.  This thing about immigration... it really is tied to the Economy.  I talked to my Mom about it the other night.  Here's the funny part - all I asked her was when all the hullabaloo about Immigration originally got started.  She said that it's been an on and off thing over the decades, but it usually only really heats up when the Economy goes sour.  That's when people start looking around and saying: "Well, where's all the jobs at!?"  And that is when all eyes turn to the immigrant Mexicans who work so terribly hard, and ask for a pitiful salary in return because that's far better than what they make back home.
Seriously.  Fix the god damn economy.  Fix health care.  Fix social security.  Fix education.  Fix export and import laws.  But above all: FIX THE DEFICIT.

[Epsilon]

My point was not that he didn't deserve jail time, but that he didn't deserve to be DEAD. 

Neither did the man he murdered. If your brother was that caught up in the drug trade he should have turned himself over to the cops, confessed to his crimes and turned states evidence against the drug dealer. They could have kept him in jail, protected him, and arrested the bad guy and put him away somewhere he couldn't get at your brother.

This is already a given. 

Then the solution is to fix the system, not give everyone a gun and tell them to go commando on their fucking problems.

I
agree about the armed forces protecting from external threats. But I
assume you simply ignored or held in utter contempt (as you usually do)
ECSNorway's and my point about cops not being able to prevent crimes
except by deterrence? They cannot be everywhere. Nor would we want them to be. I don't want to live in a police state. I do want the option to own and carry a gun and protect myself. 

There is a distinct difference between a police state and being able to tell the police that people are making threats on your life and having them protect you. If your government refuses to do that job, I suggest you vote in people who will make that the governments job. Because like I said, the primary purpose of government is to prevent people from killing you.

The story was not meant to recommend
the kind of behavior that led to that point. I was only pointing out,
that when things had gone to hell, (fully acknowledging that the hell
was at least partially of Russell's own making) that in that one moment,
he made the only choice he could in order to live. And had he not had
that gun, he likely would not have lived. Because at that moment the police could not possibly have saved him. 

No, he didn't. He made the choice to go murder someone. There are many other choices that could have resulted in him living. And there was no gaurentee he would have survived his idiot plan. If one other person there had brought a gun and was stupid enough to use it your brother would be dead now.

We
are obviously talking about different countries and cultures here.
Several posters here are from Canada. Dartz is in Ireland. Etc. Do not
assume that just because I advocate gun rights and live in Texas that I
recommend Wild West vigilantism. I have a certain contempt for certain
aspects of how Police operate in this country currently. But that
doesn't mean I think they are utterly useless or that we should not
depend on them in certain circumstances. What I do say - is that you
can't act and make decisions based on the idea that they are going to
save your ass. YOU have to save your ass by making the right decisions
and not getting into trouble in the first place. The best the cops can
usually do is identify what and who killed you. It would be
better not to allow the circumstances to get to the point where you have
to defend yourself in the first place. But if you must, it's better to
have the proper tools to do so. And the BEST tool for saving your own
life versus someone who wishes to take it from you is a gun. 

No. The best tool to keep you alive when someone wishes to kill you is called society. Because society can bring a hell of a lot more force to bear in your defense than one shotgun every could.
If you think the sole role of the police is to punish crime, I don't know what to say to you. Police exist to maintain order, and part of that involves punishing crime but part of it also includes preventing crime. You don't have to wait until a terrorist blows up a building to arrest him, the conspiracy is enough. And if a drug dealer is conspiring with his friends to murder you, he has already commited a crime because threatening someone's life is a fucking crime. Heck, dealing drugs is a crime.
This reminds me of all that school bullying nonsense. Where a kid is being beaten up at school and the school administration clucks its tongue and refuses to do anything and the parents just suggest the kid take care of himself. It's not the kids job to take care of himself. It's the parents and teachers job to step in and stop that fucking bullshit. Similarly if people are threatening you with guns its the polices job to step in and stop that bullshit. If they aren't, then you have to change your system.
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Epsilon