Fandom Gank thread

[classicdrogn]

Copied from Mass Effect thread:

I propose a new term for what Bioware has done: Fandom Gank. Where the creators of a property attempt a twist ending that, instead of fascinating and inciting discussion that enhances replay/rerun/etc value, alienates a large portion of their fanbase and creates negative buzz that has serious negative effects, if not killing off the property entirely for a while.

Last Edited By: ClassicDrogn 03/30/12 08:12 AM. Edited 3 times.

Logan Darklighter #124 [-]
(03/30/12 10:43 AM)
Fandom Gank.

Yeah. That sounds like a new trope to add to the list at TV Tropes. And Mass Effect could be the trope namer.

Bob Schroeck #125 [-]
(03/30/12 06:54 PM)

eah. That sounds like a new trope to add to the list at TV Tropes.

I was just thinking the same thing. If you don't do it, Drogn, I just might.

ClassicDrogn #126 [-]
(03/31/12 02:09 PM)


Go ahead if you like, I'm not hep to all this wicky-wack jive you kids are into these days. For another possible example, Batman & Robin: there wasn't another Batman movie for, what, a decade after that? Long enough for the next age group of fans who love the comics but didn't remember the freaky neon-lit stinkeroo most noteable for the long shots of Poison Ivy's tightly-wrapped goods.

- CD

Logan Darklighter #127 [-]
(03/31/12 02:40 PM)

Well...

I think Batman and Robin cannot be put in the same category. But your example does point out something. That if we were to make this category, it needs to be defined more tightly.

B&R was simply BAD. From beginning to end. A total and complete stinkfest. The Plan 9 from Outer Space of the modern superhero movies. (Others have been as bad - some people might point out Halle Berry's Catwoman or Elektra. But those movies didn't kill existing franchises dead.)

Mass Effect 3 is, from all accounts (and what little footage aside from the ending I've seen) an incredibly GOOD Game and story. It follows two other installments that were just as good. Absolutely no one is arguing that the whole game is bad.

It is ONLY in the last 10 minutes that it fails. ONLY the last 10 minutes that feels "tacked on" and not even part of the same narrative. And it is ONLY in the last 10 minutes that the fans/players feel so ultimately betrayed.

So - are there any other examples of movies, books, tv series, or animation where this sort of thing has happened? Perhaps if we have those examples, we can make comparisons and see what common elements this potential new trope has? To reiterate - this is any story in any medium where it is incredibly good right until the end and then takes a sharp left turn into suckage. (Perhaps so bad that you want to throw the book/tape/DVD/Controller across the room.)

BTW - I strongly recommend if we're going to start up a discussion about making a new trope, that it branch off into it's own thread. Or perhaps migrate the discussion to the actual TV Tropes site?

So, examples in any medium of things that were great right up until the horrible, fandom-killing ending.

ME3 is the Patient Zero. The movie _Batman & Robin_ is not an example, because the WHOLE MOVIE was bad, even if the preceeding two films were pretty good and (at least the first) wildly popular.

Evangelion is not quite there, lots of people found the last two episodes confusing and the movies depressing, but that didn't stop them from proclaiming the overall genius of the series, for whatever incomprehensible reason.

Nadesico and its nonending, likewise not a strong enough reaction.

I dunno, are there actually other examples that really fit?

- CD
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Ankhani]

I think this fits more as a Gainax Ending than it's own Trope. This paragraph describes almost every part of the reaction I've seen on this board and the Bioware ones:

For whatever reason, after watching a Gainax Ending, you won't have any idea what happened. After rewatching it, rewatching the entire series, discussing it with other fans, looking up the meaning of the symbolism, and subjecting the entire thing to a comprehensive literary analysis, you still might not have any idea what happened. If you're lucky, then there will be some kind of emotional or symbolic resolution even if it doesn't actually explain what happened to the characters, and you'll be left with the sense that the series as a whole was more deeply thought out than it seemed before. If you're unlucky, then you'll be left with more questions than when you started with, and the sense that the series as a whole has been voided of the meaning you once read in it.

The quote on that page pretty much sums it up quite well:

"I wanted controversy, arguments, fights, discussions, people in anger waving fists in my face saying, 'how dare you?!'".

— Patrick McGoohan on the ending of The Prisoner

(As a note, I think ME3 has a unsatisfactory ending, but not one that RUINS FOREVER the series.)
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[robkelk]

For whatever reason, after watching a Gainax Ending, you won't have any idea what happened. After rewatching it, rewatching the entire series, discussing it with other fans, looking up the meaning of the symbolism, and subjecting the entire thing to a comprehensive literary analysis, you still might not have any idea what happened. If you're lucky, then there will be some kind of emotional or symbolic resolution even if it doesn't actually explain what happened to the characters, and you'll be left with the sense that the series as a whole was more deeply thought out than it seemed before. If you're unlucky, then you'll be left with more questions than when you started with, and the sense that the series as a whole has been voided of the meaning you once read in it.

Am I the only person in the world who's never had that reaction to the end of a GAINAX production?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Ankhani]

Quote-boxed above just to clarify that's description from TVTropes of "Gainax Ending", not necessarily my opinion of the ending.
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[Logan Darklighter]

robkelk wrote:

Am I the only person in the world who's never had that reaction to the end of a GAINAX production?

Hate to break it to you, Rob, but if you're not alone, you're certainly in the minority. Just kidding! ^_^

Mind you - I didn't -quite- have as strong a reaction to the end of the Evangelion series (and the movie End of Evangelion) as I have had with Mass Effect. Simply because a bleak ending seemed to be perfectly in line with at least the entire latter half of the series. I'm pretty sure that even if Anno had been totally in his right mind at the time, that the ending would still have been pretty dark. (Though I STILL think to this day that what he did to Asuka in EoE was just WRONG, no matter what else happened in the end. She did NOT deserve that. I'm hoping for much better in the reboot.)

I think one of the problems with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it just flat doesn't fit thematically with the rest of the series. Both in terms of "ass-pull" deux ex Machina characters introduced at the last minute that we've never seen before and in terms of characterization of the main character, who has NEVER been that passive before that point. Not to mention logic holes with Normandy leaving BEFORE the battle is over, which those characters wouldn't do, etc. etc. The entire build up of the series has been that you were either going to succeed as "Big Damn Heroes" or die trying. But the ending as presented has your main character being forced to kneel to evil and accept one of three possibilities that that evil has chosen FOR you. I'd be okay with failure as an option. Or a bittersweet ending where Shepard sacrifices her life and we get to see that her sacrifice saves her friends, her lover and the galaxy at large. But the ending as presented just feels wrong. Anyway - not to repeat too much what I've said several times with examples over in the Mass Effect thread. 

Evangelion's original ending (both series and movie) might have been weird and even bleak. But it fit the rest of the story. Plus - the characters stayed themselves. (well mostly. I'm still of the opinion that they threw out all the character development that Shinji had gone through in the rest of the series. But it doesn't take too much of a leap to figure out how that could've happened in context. In any case. It's a minor nit that doesn't undo the rest of the movie.)

I think Ankh may be right, though. If there's already a trope that fits, then perhaps stick with it. But since "Gainax Ending" is so specifically tied to one source - and isn't even really fair to Gainax since the majority of their stuff has actually NOT been like that (Gunbuster, Diebuster, Gurren Lagaan, and looking like Rebuild of Eva is going to be more positive) - maybe propose that "Fandom Gank" should be an alternate name for the already existing trope?

[Norgarth]

Would the end of the last Fallout game count? I haven't played any of them but I've heard something about your character getting offed by doing something both stupid and unneccessary.
Additionally, I suspect there are many fans of the Potter books that may feel this way after books 6 and 7.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Logan Darklighter]

Fallout is a very interesting case. And proves that if the creators of Mas Effect choose to rewrite the ending, that it would'nt be unprecedented. I've never played Fallout 3. But I understand that the ending wasn't to the fans liking there either. And the makers basically said, "Okay. Here's some new ending content for you." And actually sold an add-on that not only included a new ending, but other stuff as well as I recall hearing from a friend of mine who played it. But that's just the broad gist of what I've heard.
But before the ending rewrite, perhaps Fallout would count? Someone who's more a fan of that series would have to let us know.
As to the Potter books - I've read them and thought they were well done. But I think the author needed an editor who was more willing to say "no" to her and tell her to trim things and catch plot holes. In broad terms, I think the ending of that series is satisfying. But I can definitely nitpick details.
But I'm not really a die-hard fan of the Potter books the way some people are. So maybe someone who is could chime in and give their view?

[Rod.H]

Yeah, the original ending of Fallout 3 would count, due to some players building their character with the ability to resist & thrive in ridiculous amounts of radiation even beyond the levels of what the Eden Project device could put out. Still the add-on DLC (or GoTY) increased the level cap so you could up those stats some more. Stats I tended to ignore in an attempt to build characters that could one-shot kill a Deathclaw at extreme sniper rifle range and the same at normal combat ranges. Did I mention Deathclaws? I so despise those critters, along with Super Mutant Behemoths, Sectoids, Chrysalids.....

[classicdrogn]

Consider how much fanfic I see that includes "All 7 books minus crapilogue" in the summary, I think the Potter books probably apply, though I would exclude it on the same grounds as Batman & Robin where the whole of the last installment being a rotter doesn't count. Particularly since the last two were indeed puplished as two books, and I include OotP in the stinkers club as well, even though it is technically true to the theme of self-improvement as the way to success from the earlier books.

- CD
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Bob Schroeck]

I think the distinction we need to make here is simple. A Gainax Ending is intentional -- it's designed to confuse or piss off the viewer, either for Grand Artistic Reasons or for Creator Lulz. A Fandom Gank is unexpected -- the creative team thinks it's doing something cool and interesting, or appropriate to the setting/story, and expects the reader/user/viewer base to Get It and applaud them. The reader/user/viewer base then begs to disagree.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

...the creative team thinks it's doing something cool and interesting, or appropriate to the setting/story, and expects the reader/user/viewer base to Get It and applaud them.

Uhm, yeah.  If the words 'Avant Garde' were being bandied about in the writer's department, then somebody needs to die.  Slowly.  Painfully.  And preferably to the tune of the Mr. Ed opening song.

[classicdrogn]

I dunno about that, but I remember despising the ending of Vision of Escaflowne as well. Seriously? She could be the queen of a magical kingdom, and instead she goes back to high school, subway molestation, and a glass ceiling as an OL? I"ve never been able to enjoy Escaflowne material since, and I was rabid for it while watching the series.

- CD, the only worse reaction I had to an anime was Eva, whiere I microwaved the DVDs
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[nemonowan]

I dunno about that, but I remember despising the ending of Vision of
Escaflowne as well. Seriously? She could be the queen of a magical
kingdom, and instead she goes back to high school, subway molestation,
and a glass ceiling as an OL? I"ve never been able to enjoy Escaflowne
material since, and I was rabid for it while watching the series.

This is another thing that was really unusual in the Sailor Moon anime, besides being the first fighting magical girls
Every former magical girl show (and indeed the first season of SM) had always ended with the protagonist losing her magic and becoming a normal modern japanese schoolgirl - because the message is that that's obviously the best possible thing in the world to be.
From Sailor Moon R onwards, this got subverted, and how! Not only does she keep the magic, she is going be an immortal empress and rule the world for thousands of years!  (and for the japanese, muscling in into the Emperor's racket is something serious)

[Jorlem]

I dunno about that, but I remember despising the ending of Vision of Escaflowne as well. Seriously? She could be the queen of a magical kingdom, and instead she goes back to high school, subway molestation, and a glass ceiling as an OL? I"ve never been able to enjoy Escaflowne material since, and I was rabid for it while watching the series.

- CD, the only worse reaction I had to an anime was Eva, whiere I microwaved the DVDs

I've always interpreted that ending a bit differently, with the assumption that she could return if she wanted to, but was staying to ease out of her life on Earth.  She still has family and friends there, and I doubt she wanted to hurt them by simply vanishing one day.  Add that to her choosing to return to help Van when she sent herself back to Earth toward the end, and her being able to see Van in the last scene, and I'm fairly sure she's going to go back once she is a bit older.  Heck, the reason she chose to leave, if I recall correctly, was because she had a slightly weaker variant of Haruhi's power there, and her unconscious impulses and jealousies were hurting everyone around her.  She was already starting to learn how to control that power towards the end of the series, and once she matures a bit more, so that she thinks she can fully control it, there's no reason she can't decide to go back. 
Plus, Hitomi's grandmother crossed over once without the pendant being involved, so it probably isn't completely necessary.  (Allen's father saw her the first time before he found Atlantis and acquired the pendant.)
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

[Bob Schroeck]

Bob casts Thread Necromancy!  It's super-effective!

Fandom Gank. 

Yeah. That sounds like a new trope to add to the list at TV Tropes. And Mass Effect could be the trope namer. 

And now, some six years after the fact, I've finally gotten around to setting this up in the Trope Workshop at All The Tropes: Fandom Gank.  Feel free to head over there and add any other works that have disappointed you when you got to their end.