On her sparkling luminescence, Glory

[murmur]

Having finished re-reading DW 5 and its whole Celestial/Avatar thing, I have to wonder about Glory.

According to both my memories and the Buffy wikia, Glorificus is a hell god and not a demon.  If I remember correctly, Buffy and Giles both were fairly rocked by that revelation--that they were fighting a god.  That she was a hell god didn't seem to make much difference.

Of course functionally Glory wasn't all that different from a demon.  She was in a Ben-container, but had demon-y powers like super-strength, super-tough, and spell-casting.  Also, color-coordination.  That last may not be a demon power.

However, given that Glory is a god, if a hell god, does this mean that in the DW-metaverse, Glory has a Celestial overself?  That is, Buffy-verse Glory is an aspect of a higher being?  Which one?  she's probably [possible spoiler?]not the Warrior, since I believe that that position has been taken in the Buffy-verse.

Of course, I don't expect any answers about this since it would probably spoil the story.

Still, something to think about.

[Jorlem]

If I understood the stuff in Step V correctly, demons also have a Celestial overself. It's just mortals that don't.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

[Bob Schroeck]

Well, mortals do, too, but they're tiny compared to the Celestials and Infernals (as well as only 4-dimensional versus 12+-dimensional), and mortals sort of grow them as they grow physically. Whereas the gods and demons start out as overselves and "push" bits of themselves into universes of lower dimensionality in order to interact with the mortals therein.

Oh, and the gods and demons are mortal, too -- it's just that their time axis/axes are such that lower-dimensionality creatures don't really see much happen on that front during a typical 4-dimensional civilization's lifetime.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[deadpan29]

Also, most demons in BtVS aren't pure demons, but are some sort of mix of the pure demons that were driven out in pre-history and some sort of mortal creature. Some, like Vampires, take over a human host body. Most of the others, by DW-metaverse standards, would probably be considered mortal beings with enough Infernal or Celestial heritiage to make them super-human in some way, but not having a cosmic-scale overself. I suspect some are just plain aliens from other dimensions who get lumped under the demon label with every other inteligent non-human in that universe.

If my posulation above is corect, then an actual Celestial/Infernal (which Glory presumably is) would be a really big step up from the things normally called demons in those parts. Even with Ben-body-sharing as a form of limiter.
----------
No, I don't believe the world has gone mad.  In order for it to go mad it would need to have been sane at some point.

[Norgarth]

I sorta figure that Glory had forced on her, what Wetter Hex chose. Her full overself crammed into a single physical form (Illyria may count as the same).
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[chibipoe]

That was my impression from the series. There were 3 of them(assuming Bob goes with her canon origins without tweaking) and the other two went to war with her and managed to depose her and sealed her because she was batsh*t crazy. I thought(I can no longer recall where I saw this) that she was -never- supposed to wake up. Ben was meant to live and die and take Glory with him. But... she was so powerful that the sealing didn't work and she start pushing out. Even so, she was terribly restricted/limited? That much I remember. At full power, or anywhere close, she would have squashed Buffy like a bug. As it was, she was just stronger and more durable than -anything- else, period. Though going a round with Willow, then Buffy, followed by getting hit by a 18 wheeler was more dmg than she could take and stay in control. As it was, she could manifest a fraction of herself, but once it took more damage, she reverted to Ben.

Interestingly enough, the fight with Willow, followed by getting hit by the tractor trailer, forced her back to Ben, but did no dmg to him. Her final fight with Buffy... the wrecking ball, plus Buffy smashing her face in with the troll's hammer... pretty much wrecked Ben when Glory retreated. So, Buffy + TrollHammer + Wrecking Ball = more dmg than a fast moving 18 wheeler?

/random rambling
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome power. Its burning grip tells me to defeat you....
Shining FINGER!" -Domon Kashuu, Mobile Fighter G Gundam

[Bob Schroeck]

I sorta figure that Glory had forced on her, what Wetter Hex chose. Her full overself crammed into a single physical form (Illyria may count as the same).

Bingo.  From my notes for DW13:

Glory has had done to her what Hexe did to herself, but where
Hexe made extensive preparations in order to function properly,
Glory is quick-and-dirty shoved into a mortal body and locked
there.  It was a bodged up disposal method, not a proper
incarnation.
While she may never have been sane by human standards, vis-a-vis
various Lovecraft entities, Glory's cyclic, growing "crazy" is
actually the result of a mismatch between her celestial
perceptions (N-dimensional) and the 4-D spacetime she's trapped
in.  She needs a "filter" or "adapter" to cope, which she gets by
stealing a human's mental framework.  She applies this to her own
mind with what amounts to a duct-tape kludge, giving her the
ability to function in 4D spacetime.  However, the framework
*degrades* over several days, and she needs a new one in about a
week. (Between 1 Oct 2000 and 7 Nov 2000, 5 weeks, Glory "eats"
no less than 6 people.  Assuming no unseen snacks, that means she
needs to top up every six days or so.)

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

(assuming Bob
goes with her canon origins without tweaking)

I will be, yes.

So, Buffy + TrollHammer + Wrecking Ball = more dmg than a
fast moving 18 wheeler?

The Troll Hammer is explicitly identified in the course of season 5 as a Celestial weapon, like God's Toothpick; by the end of the season it's actually called the Troll God's Hammer.
So, yes.  Although the hammer did more than the wrecking ball did.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[DeputyJones]

Although the hammer did more than the wrecking ball did.

Though the wrecking ball was still a heluva lot funnier.

[chibipoe]

Although the hammer did more than the wrecking ball did.

Though the wrecking ball was still a heluva lot funnier.

"And the glorified bricklayer picks up a spare!" 
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome power. Its burning grip tells me to defeat you....
Shining FINGER!" -Domon Kashuu, Mobile Fighter G Gundam

[Ebony]

Although the hammer did more than the wrecking ball did.

Though the wrecking ball was still a heluva lot funnier.

"And the glorified bricklayer picks up a spare!" 

Never underestimate the power of a Zeppo.
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[Shepherd]

So, Buffy + TrollHammer + Wrecking Ball = more dmg than a fast moving 18 wheeler?

Don't forget the Dagon Sphere (which was specifically designed to weaken and ward off Glory) and Willow yanking Tara's mental energy out of Glory's head. Glory was taken down by some serious wolf pack tactics.
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

[murmur]

Since Glory has been stuffed into the Ben-container, does this mean that there are NO Glory counterparts/avatars/versions in other universes?  There isn't a version of Glory in Doug's world, or the BGC world or the OMB world?

Or maybe we've seen glimpses of Glory before in those other universes, only we had no clue.  Like, one of those RPG-playing kids in the diner in DWII was actually that universe's Glory.

On a slightly different but related tangent, what is the difference between being forcibly incarnated and Falling?  It seems to have done damage to Buffy-verse Glory that is equivalent, if not possibly on the same level, as Mara's Fall.

-murmur

[murmur]

If I remember the Buffy-canon, there are at least five different types of major-league beings.

First, there are the Demons.  These are the Old Ones like Illyria, the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart; that snake-thing that the Mayor was trying to transform into.  All the other demons in the Buffy-verse, unless specifically stated otherwise, are mixtures of Demon and human and thus weaker than the Old Ones.

Then there are the Powers that Be.  The only one we see is Jasmine, who had to incarnate herself in a body manufactured by a "fallen" Power that Be (Cordelia) who had sex with a human born from vampires (Connor).  And then when people see her true face, it's all maggoty.  But perhaps Jasmine is not representative of the Powers.

Then there are the gods.  They don't seem to do much, other than be theurgic resources for Willow and other wiccans to draw upon.  Hecate, Osiris, etc.  That unnamed Troll god whose hammer Olaf somehow got.

Then there are the Hellgods, of whom we've only seen Glory.  She may count among the above-gods but we've only seen people worship/sycophant at her, not actually draw power from her.  Not a demon, maybe not even an Old One, but a Hellgod.

Then there's the one-off powers, like The First Evil and Twilight.

Would Doug classify all of these guys somewhere in the Celestial/Infernal axis?  If so, where would they go?  In fact, how would Doug react to the First Evil and vice versa?

[Bob Schroeck]

Since Glory has been stuffed into the Ben-container, does this mean that there are NO Glory counterparts/avatars/versions in other universes?  There isn't a version of Glory in Doug's world, or the BGC world or the OMB world?

Or maybe we've seen glimpses of Glory before in those other universes, only we had no clue.  Like, one of those RPG-playing kids in the diner in DWII was actually that universe's Glory.

On a slightly different but related tangent, what is the difference between being forcibly incarnated and Falling?  It seems to have done damage to Buffy-verse Glory that is equivalent, if not possibly on the same level, as Mara's Fall.

Okay, I really ought to do this on more thought and sleep, but here's the old college try.
Demons, Old Ones, Gods, Hellgods:  All the same basic kind of creature as far as my cosmology is concerned -- a timeslice of a much "larger" 12-dimensional being.  The primary difference between them is what "team" they're on in the grand conflict between themselves, and their choice of Vessel.  Note that these teams are not simplistically "Good" and "Evil", although they tend to play that way; there are evil gods that are part of the "good" team, and a few beings one might think of at first glance as "good" on the side of the demons.  (One metric for determining the side is what they think of lower-dimensionals.  The gods -- even the evil ones -- place some value on lower-dimensionals, if only as basic worshipers.  Demons tend to see them as toys to play with and break without consequence, or to nosh on.)
Because that particular Earth does have interdimensional connections to other universes, spaces and places, not all of these Celestial and Infernal manifestations are "native" to the Buffyverse, but that has no real impact on how they operate there or their power level.  (Think Skuld traipsing from world to world in "Girls, Girls, Girls".)
And as we've seen both in DW5 and in the third season of Buffy, it's possible for a lower-dimensional to get "promoted" (although given the ease with with the Mayor was dispatched, I wouldn't be surprised if he was being conned by the Big-D demons).
Lower-case "d" demons are effectively mortals with odd appearances, diets and abilities  And are usually hostile toward humans for the same reason Indians didn't like white settlers in the Old West.
The Powers That Be -- sound and act a whole lot like the Seraphim Council from In Nomine:  not quite gods, but unimaginably powerful compared to J. Average Mortal.  Given their big emphasis on "balance", I believe they're actually made up of representatives of both sides.  They administer and police the situation on Earth.
What I haven't yet explained in the story is that Earth in the Buffyverse is currently the metaphysical equivalent of the Korean DMZ.  Or the Romulan Neutral Zone.  Neither full gods nor full demons, by the terms of an ancient agreement, are allowed to operate directly on Earth.  Both gods and demons can lend/send power to worshippers, particularly priestly types, but are forbidden from making personal appearances.  Something about Earth is very special to them, special enough that they're willing to take a full hands-off approach to keep it from being rendered into gravel by god-demon conflicts.  Hence the PTB, which are a mixed team of beings from both sides, roughly the power of archangels.  Their entire goal is to maintain the balance of power on Earth so that neither side gets an upper hand and causes the other side to decide they have nothing to lose by breaking the agreement.
Naturally, demons being demons, they cheat a little, and the mortal-demon hybrids were grandfathered in as being mortals.  But the good guys have been known to play a little fast and loose once in a while as well.
I don't know anything about Twilight, but the First Evil is another 12-D creature's avatar.  The First Evil will not be appearing in this story, but will be... um, invoked might be the best word, toward the end.
As for Glory, she didn't fall so much as get dogpiled and beaten up, then stuffed in a packing crate.  This happened on the 12-D level, although it was instigated by events on a lower level.  So yes, that means any other roles that Glory's overself took in other universes (and in the Buffyverse!) are currently MIA.  And what happened to Marller to turn her into Mara is actually the complete opposite of what happened to Glory.  Marller was shattered, and essentially each of her instances across the multiverse became an individual, and they were all joined together only loosely.  Glory has been run through the metaphysical equivalent of file compression software and jammed into a single mortal body.  Most of her power is locked away; part of that at least is because much of the power of the gods comes from tapping into the ability to perceive and affect a universe from a level or two "above" it, dimensionally-speaking.  Glory, however, is firmly anchored inside a single 4-D universe, and her ability to affect it is all but non-existent.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[murmur]

You know, your explanation actually puts me in mind another fanfic, Chris Davies' The Adventures of Sheila Tenkai, and its sequel. In it, you get to see that Neo-Queen Serenity actually has knowledge of her counterparts in various other fanfic.

Which means that at least in those fanfic, Neo-Queen Serenity is dimensionally transcendent. Like the gods.

Now I don't know what plans are in place for Hearts of Steel S, but it would be interesting to see if Sailor Moon would show up as divine or not. And if she did, would she be an incarnation of the Moon Goddess (who traditionally has three aspects, much like some other triune goddesses we know) or another type of goddess altogether?

Assuming that Sailor Moon is divine.

-murmur

[Norgarth]

You know, your explanation actually puts me in mind another fanfic, Chris Davies' The Adventures of Sheila Tenkai, and its sequel. In it, you get to see that Neo-Queen Serenity actually has knowledge of her counterparts in various other fanfic.

Which means that at least in those fanfic, Neo-Queen Serenity is dimensionally transcendent. Like the gods.

Now I don't know what plans are in place for Hearts of Steel S, but it would be interesting to see if Sailor Moon would show up as divine or not. And if she did, would she be an incarnation of the Moon Goddess (who traditionally has three aspects, much like some other triune goddesses we know) or another type of goddess altogether?

Assuming that Sailor Moon is divine.

-murmur

 I think you need more than just 'knowledge of your counterparts' to count as dimensionally trascendant, otherwise quite a few Star Trek characters count as Transcendant.  (they know of their Mirrorverse counterparts)
As for Sailor Moon registering as a goddess, I think that for season 1 she's at best a demigoddess.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[robkelk]

I think you need more than just 'knowledge of your counterparts' to count as dimensionally trascendant, otherwise quite a few Star Trek characters count as Transcendant.  (they know of their Mirrorverse counterparts)

As would at least one Fenspace character, who most definitely is not "transcendent."
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Now I don't know what plans are in place for Hearts of Steel S, but it would be interesting to see if Sailor Moon would show up as divine or not. And if she did, would she be an incarnation of the Moon Goddess (who traditionally has three aspects, much like some other triune goddesses we know) or another type of goddess altogether?

Assuming that Sailor Moon is divine.

-murmur

No, that's not entirely fair.
Sailor Moon/Serenity is not the Three/Four.  But if you take something mentioned in a Silver Millennium flashback in the original Japanese verbatim, she might be their daughter.
  
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Now I don't know what plans are in place for Hearts of Steel S, but it would be interesting to see if Sailor Moon would show up as divine or not. And if she did, would she be an incarnation of the Moon Goddess (who traditionally has three aspects, much like some other triune goddesses we know) or another type of goddess altogether?

Assuming that Sailor Moon is divine.

-murmur

No, that's not entirely fair.
Sailor Moon/Serenity is not the Three/Four.  But if you take something mentioned in a Silver Millennium flashback in the original Japanese verbatim, she might be their daughter. 

Zing!  Makes me wonder how the parentage on that one worked out.  (After all, we have no idea who her father was.)
Really, how would that work out?  I mean... if the Princess was the daughter of The Three... then how does that work out with her mother?  Was she some sort of embodiment of all three aspects?  Or was she just one aspect and the other two are 'Aunties'?

[Labster]

Zing!  Makes me wonder how the parentage on that one worked out.  (After all, we have no idea who her father was.)
Really,
how would that work out?  I mean... if the Princess was the daughter of
The Three... then how does that work out with her mother?  Was she some
sort of embodiment of all three aspects?  Or was she just one aspect
and the other two are 'Aunties'?

I assume it works the same way that Haruka and Michiru have yuri babies in my imagination... which is obviously through their parent's zaibatsu's investment in biological research.
After reading Symphony of the Sword, it's hard not to think of the elder Norns as "Aunt Bell" and "Aunt Urd".
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

Now I don't know what plans are in place for Hearts of Steel S, but it would be interesting to see if Sailor Moon would show up as divine or not. And if she did, would she be an incarnation of the Moon Goddess (who traditionally has three aspects, much like some other triune goddesses we know) or another type of goddess altogether?

Assuming that Sailor Moon is divine.

-murmur

Sailor Moon/Serenity is not the Three/Four.  But if you take something mentioned in a Silver Millennium flashback in the original Japanese verbatim, she might be their daughter. 

Really, how would that work out?  I mean... if the Princess was the daughter of The Three... then how does that work out with her mother?  Was she some sort of embodiment of all three aspects?  Or was she just one aspect and the other two are 'Aunties'?

Well, I used the phrasing I did because of the way murmur put it.  IIRC, Serenity I says in one of the Silver M flashbacks that she is an avatar of Selene.  Selene is not necessarily one (or any, or all) of the Three/Four, although if she has a triune aspect, she probably is.  That doesn't mean she's all three at once; Serenity and/or Selene may well just be a role they take turns playing.  Then again, I've hinted (though I've never decided for sure) that the Three might all be faces of the same metagod.  Remember the moments in DW2 when they refer to each other as "my sister-selves"?  In that case, funky biology isn't required.  Either way, it's possible they timeshared the pregnancy by swapping in and out of Serenity.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[murmur]

Anyway, this seems to be going a bit off-topic--though not by much, and it's still fascinating.

Anyway, if I remember Chris Davies' fanfic correctly, the various Neo-Queen Serenities (who weren't Misato) were able to at least contact each other and may in fact have been mind-sharing with each other.  So I guess it was kind of like Paradox's powers.  Though it's also possible that there was an Overmind running the various Serenities.  (Of course Sailor Pluto's powers greatly depend on the writer, but a lot of time she too is like Paradox).

But Bob's answers certainly clears up some things, particularly why Glory's so nutso.  But the most important question remaining is: has Glory always been the most fashion-conscious hellgod around?

[Terrace]

The Scoobies would be extremely interested in Doug if he lets slip that he once had a goddess as a roommate.

"So, Hexe is like Glory, only done properly?"

"Yeah, Hexe did it to herself, on purpose, so she spend a while getting everything right. Glory's situation, by comparison, is like getting clobbered on the head, and waking up in a rumpled police uniform stolen from a stripper, and trying to improvise from there."

[Bob Schroeck]

Heh. I've got to mention that to Helen. I don't think either of us considered that kind of exchange and it might be a lot of fun to write.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.