On translating honorifics... or not.

[Morganite]

Over in the http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/topic/3765]Persona 3 thread...

Even if you happen to know what they mean, most people who say they do don't. Therefore, they're not translated at all in the sense of conveying the
original meaning - and for regular people who would like an actual English translation in their English game, even more so.

However, this isn't really what this thread is about, so I'd rather not continue the digression on an off-hand comment.

 

So, here's someplace for it to be on-topic.

Anyway. You're probably right about most people not understanding how to use them properly. (I've probably done my part to make things worse in the past, having some characters who deliberately use ones that wouldn't be considered appropriate. '.' )

On the other hand, I think "interpretation" might be open to argument. Certainly there's subtleities that most people will probably miss out on; I know I continue to run into new things. But getting some of the information is better than getting none of it, and most if not all of them entirely lack useful translations. Or, to put it another way, I consider translations that strip honorifics to be unprofessional. Not necessarily sloppy, but I don't approve of someone doing extra work to hinder my understanding.

For the specific case of Persona 3, since it seems to be generally considered a "niche" game, I think it likely that most of the people who will play it will at least have a basic understanding of the honorifics, and will probably appreciate them. I've never even seen any threads complaining about them on the gamefaqs board for the game, and people on gamefaqs will complain about everything that is. (Even Fuuka Yamagishi's voice! >,> )

-Morgan.

[jpub]

I don't know if it's a niche thing. A lot of the reaction in the game community, from various people involved in translation project, seems to be that
the Atlus solution is generally accepted as the best one for the specific case of P3, which is rare. Very few games that come out of Japan were as
'immersed' in Japan as P3 was. The game was set in Japan, at a Japanese high school, with Japanese students, who went to said school at a Japanese
schedule, with Japanese holidays. The keeping of the honorifics, which were limited to -kun, -chan, -sempai, and -san (and the dialectal variant -tan), helped
to maintain the air of living in Japan.

[Ankhani]

The way I see it, is that such honorifics can either be transcribed directly, or attempted to put into a context of the vernacular. That is to say, do the best
that is possible to transcribe Japanese Ideographic characters into the Latin Alphabet, or take the honorific and more so 'translate' into a context
that the common person might grasp the meaning. The Former is perhaps easier than the latter, in most cases. In doing so, however it risks leaving those who do
understand the meaning of them to take it upon themselves to figure out the meaning. Of course, putting them into the vernacular does usually come with is the
loss of the true meanings of them. So it is more a matter of taste, and the skill either is done with.

--
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[Morganite]

The problem with the "vernacular" approach is that it seems hard to do without sounding completely ridiculous. Translating "-san" as
Mr./Mrs./Ms., while not what I'd call entirely wrong, but it often sounds strange. The basic usage is similar, but since -san is used for a wider range of
subjects under more conditions, the translation makes things sound unusually formal. Leaving the honorifics intact, even if someone has a relatively simplistic
understanding of them, means assuming that such patterns from english automatically apply less likely.

-Morgan, and I thought -tan was a variant of -chan?

[Epsilon]

The problem I have with using these things is that it's lazy. While honorifics are used in Japanese for certain purposes but these purposes are taken over
by other factors in English. Tone of voice, context and other factors are used in English to convey the same information. Thus if you're interested in
translating something into English, you should do so. Don't be lazy and half-ass it.

--------------

Epsilon

[Foxboy]

Ah, but those tones of voice are deucedly hard to convey in English prosody. True, an actor or actress can convey "what a complete and utter ass! I need to show my total disdain for him" and get it across with a "Hello, Newman."

Part of the sad thing is that a literal translation of -san as "Mister" is that, while Japanese calls folks "Mr. So-and-so" regularly as part of normal everyday usage, English is moving away from it. In fact, many native Anglophones use "Mister So-and-so" or just the last name as a slightly insulting mode of address.

Hmm. This post had a point at one point but darned if I can locate it now....

*shrug* Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Bob Schroeck]

and I thought -tan was a variant of -chan?

It is -- it's baby-talk.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[jpub]

Morganni wrote:


-and I thought -tan was a variant of -chan?

Could have been. The person using it (the class clown, Junpei) only applies it to his classmate/teammate, who's one of the more popular/pretty
girls. Her name is Yukari, and he calls her Yuka-tan. She calls him Stupei.

[Ayiekie]

I'll make the small point that a niche video game is still courting a significantly bigger audience than non-Pokemon/Naruto/DBZ anime is. Therefore, a lot
of the audience is not necessarily going to be versed in fanboy Japanese the same way anime fanfiction readers are going to be.

That being said, there's a point made that Persona is heavily versed in Japanese culture. If that is so, and the honourific use is limited, I find it more
excusable, with the caveat that most people still do not actually even know what "-kun" means (most, for instance, thinking that you only call boys
"kun", going all the way back to the horrid "Ranma-chan" and "Ranma-kun" shorthand for his female and male forms) and therefore
you are still not translating the meaning, just a sense of "Japaneseness" - which is still different than what is intended to be conveyed to the
audience, and thus is not really a translation.

Even if in this particular case it might be appropriate, though, that doesn't make it appropriate in most cases. Supposedly professional anime translations
using them make my teeth itch. That is not a translation. A translation conveys the same intended meaning to a foreign audience - something "Oooh,
BigTittedMaid-chan, when will Uselessloserboy-kun ever ask me out?" will never do for a non-fluent Japanese speaker. There ARE English equivalents, it
just requires work on the translator (and director's) part to get them across in English. If there's no English equivalent, you obviously can't
understand it anyway, being an English speaker, without immersing yourself in Japanese culture; which watching anime is not ever going to do.

I care less if they're in subtitles, admittedly, because subs are under more constraints space-and-tone-wise and are intended for the tiny niche fan
audience most likely to embrace (if not understand) them anyway. Still don't like them, but I find them more understandable there.

[CattyNebulart]

I see your point Ayiekie and even agree to some extent. Still as a personal preference I do prefer that the honorifics are left in, because I understand most
of them. Besides if they are left in there is a good chance that English will adopt them as part of the language. Probably butcher their meaning in the process
but still.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."