Going over the Cliff

[ordnance11]

As for taking responsibility for the consequences, when was the last time any politician in any party in North America did that?

Don't you mean any politician..period?  *grin*
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[ordnance11]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

...among other things, the Republicans want to link sinking Net Neutrality to a debt ceiling deal.

Here's the reason why:
They achieved their goal and have no idea what to do next
No over riding idea is holding the GOP right now. All that anger and commitment and no idea what to do with it. 
Edit:
Found a Washington Post blog on the subject:  It's not an opening bid, it's a cry for help!
Edit2: Huh, it's not just a wish list. It's asking Obama to concede the 2010 election.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[robkelk]

As for taking responsibility for the consequences, when was the last time any politician in any party in North America did that?

Don't you mean any politician..period? *grin*

I've heard rumours that Churchill was willing to take responsibility for some of his poorer decisions... but I have no cite for this.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[robkelk]

Bob Schroeck wrote:...among other things, the Republicans want to link sinking Net Neutrality to a debt ceiling deal.

Here's the reason why:

They achieved their goal and have no idea what to do next

No over riding idea is holding the GOP right now. All that anger and commitment and no idea what to do with it.

Edit:

Found a Washington Post blog on the subject: It's not an opening bid, it's a cry for help!

Edit2: Huh, it's not just a wish list. It's asking Obama to concede the 2010 election.

Now, hold on a minute. You folks only have two parties, so you don't get minority governments. The Democrats won that election. And now you're saying the Republicans want that changed? They want the will of the majority of the US voters to be ignored?

That's the exact opposite of democracy.

If this is an accurate statement of the facts, then it's time for the Republican Party to disband; they've lost contact with the Constitution and the public.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[ordnance11]

Well, the 40 or 50 GOP congresspeople who were voted in under the Tea Party banner were voted in under the anti-Washington stance. No big government. What part of government to curb they not agree on. It could be that this is a "touch the stove" moment for the Tea Party. Let them have the fight they wanted and see what the consequences of that would be so that they would be more amenable for the next fight which is the debt ceiling. But I have noted that the GOP has continuously been doubling down since 2012 on every setback  they had encountered. They could had done this fight in the summer in the Department of Human Service and Health Budget. Here is  an article to the the story:
Paul Ryan's budget
To me a worse case scenario would be a partial government shutdown until October 17 when a government default would loom. The Senate would probably pass a CR that spares the Defense Department, but not much else. And if no agreement is made on or before then, the the U.S. government defaults. The U.S. government already had it's credit rating dropped the last time. A default would have consequences on a global scale.
Edit: Found part of an article that's interesting:

In public and private, many of these conservatives are spoiling for a
fight. On conference calls and in conversations on the House floor,
many conservatives say they need a shock to the political system to have
a chance of extracting something from Obama. This isn’t a government
shutdown, they say, but rather a slowdown. They are betting the American
public won’t turn on House Republicans like they did in 1996, when the
GOP lost nine seats, and President Bill Clinton won a second term in the
White House.

While Boehner’s many allies in the House GOP Conference have sided
with him during the past 2½ years to resist such urges, there is now
tacit acquiescence to a shutdown, several Republican leadership aides
said.

Boehner, however, is hampered by several other factors during the
current faceoff with Democrats. The first, and most important, is that a
group of conservative House Republicans, perhaps 20 to 30 strong, are
automatically against anything that Boehner supports. They don’t trust
Boehner or his strategies for countering Democrats. While Boehner
believes much of his job entails “protecting members from themselves,”
these Republicans — fairly or unfairly — believe they need protection
from the speaker as much as Democrats.

In addition, Boehner also has to deal with the fact that his partner
in previous standoffs with Democrats, Senate Minority Leader Mitch
McConnell (R-Ky.), is distracted by his own 2014 reelection campaign.
McConnell has been far less visible in the current fracas over
government funding than he was in the 2011 debt ceiling fight or the
frantic maneuvering during 2012 fiscal cliff debate.

And finally, Boehner is paying the price of the GOP election debacle
last November. Boehner was able to keep some of his more confrontational
members in line in 2011 and 2012 by arguing that an “all-or-nothing”
strategy in confronting Democrats could hurt the Republican presidential
candidate.

But following Obama’s solid victory over Mitt Romney, these
inhibitions are now gone. House Republicans were stuck with Obama for
four more years, as well as Obamacare. And many feel that any price is
worth it if they can delay or defund the massive health care program.

Here is the full article
Looks like I was wrong: It's not 40-50 Tea Party members. It's only 20-30  GOP congressman that's wagging the dog. And they are doubling down.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[robkelk]

Oh, boy.

Sounds like those 20-30 Tea Party politicians are like our Bloc Quebecois - willing to tear the country apart in order to get their own way. (Although for you, the "tear the country apart" bit is figurative.)

I don't know how you nominate candidates - can the party refuse to sign their nomination papers, so they'd have to run for re-election as independents or not run at all? At least the party would be distanced from them in that case...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

I don't know how you nominate candidates - can the party refuse to sign their nomination papers, so they'd have to run for re-election as independents or not run at all? At least the party would be distanced from them in that case...

In general nope. For the presidential nomination there is a chance that the delagetes could vote other than the one they where voted for.. but for most congressional primaries whoever wins the election is that parties nominee, and in most cases the party can't even prevent them from running, eg if hittler was reborn as an american and wanted to run for office most parties would not be able to say no if he filed the paperwork, though that varies significantly from state to state.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[ordnance11]

The most common means of nominating candidates in the U.S is by either caucus or a primary. Some of them either falls into getting a majority vote, a threshold vote level and then there is a run-off or no run off, winner take all and variations there-of. Right now for the GOP, redistricting of "safe" districts guarantees an almost automatic win for the GOP candidate. And there are 2 things to consider in a primary:

1. The mid-term elections are almost always low voter turn-out. Therefore it favors the most committed. Whose wants and aspirations might not gybe with the rest.

2. As one political observer where I live noted: "The crazy quotient is inversely proportional to the population."

Well, one more day. We'll see what God has in store.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Rajvik]

I'll find a link shortly, however it appears that the US government has shut down over 17 times since 1970, 12 of them during the time Tip O'neil (Democrat) was speaker and no one really even noticed it. I was going to put something nasty about the Washington Post here but deleted it due to it not being constructive to the conversation.

My local representative is safe in his seat, and (to me unfortunately) probably so is Debbie Waserman-Schultz another Florida representative from south florida, as probably are most of the Florida seats, the ones in question are ones that might, (or do) have primary challengers
 

[ordnance11]

A history of U.S. government shutdowns
On a side note Jim Bachus, the Alabama congressman for the 6th district has decided to call it quits. He's a moderate, had to wage 1.6 million dollar campaign against a Tea Party candidate.
Huh, the moderates tried a revolt, but it didn't go through. Pity, I guess the horse will not be singing. 
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Black Aeronaut]

ordnance11 wrote:

---

Huh, the moderates tried a revolt, but it didn't go through. Pity, I guess the horse will not be singing. 

Welcome to the age of the new silent majority.

[ordnance11]

Before I turn in ..a couple of articles.
Why is the GOP doing this?
If you think this is bad, watch when the debt ceiling fight happens
So, if the GOP is willing to bring on a shutdown of the government, how willing are they to go to a default? I would had said they're not that crazy and stupid, but what do I know?
Edit: It's now official:
The fat lady has sung
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[robkelk]

Why would they need to raise the debt ceiling again? They aren't spending money right now.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[RMH999]

To pay for the bills that are coming due. Without raising the debt ceiling, maturing debt/bills come due on Nov 1, and the US doesn't have the money on hand to pay it.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein

[ordnance11]

They would have to pay it out of cash on hand. The closer to the that date, the more jittery the markets become. And if the U.S defaults....now we are in unknown territory. 
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Dragonflight]

Sadly, they are spending money. Essential services still need to be paid for. The military is the largest consumer of cash in the US economy, and they are still getting paid. The money's being pumped out of the country at high speed, and without raising the debt ceiling, they'll crash.
The idiotic thing from my perspective, is that the US is only one of two countries that actually have this thing called a "debt ceiling." Everyone else just raises the debt limit automatically when a new budget is approved. An artificial means put into place at the beginning of last century as an attempt to prevent government overspending is going to be the event that kills the country. First there's a budget crisis in 2011. Then another last year. Finally, a third this year, and a possible fourth in November if this one is somehow avoided. And that doesn't cover the fact that as the US presumably returns to normal operations the demand on cash will skyrocket over the short term, possibly leading to yet another financial crisis in early 2014...
People have been predicting "the fall of the American Empire" for years now. It saddens me to suggest that it might actually happen, and that it will be because of power-hungry empire builders.
---
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

[Logan Darklighter]

Don't ya just LOVE Shutdown Theater?
Shutdown theater is Obama's penchant for making shutdowns worse than they need to be.

For example, the Capitol Park Police doing more work than needed to erect barriers to entry to the WWII memorial in the Mall. No one "works" here; there are no Park Rangers. It's a friggin' monument. And it is policed by the Capitol Park Police, who are, of course, still on the job.

Nevertheless, Obama is doing Shutdown Theater so he had his Imperial Troops erect barriers to keep people from seeing it.

Some visiting veterans rejected the Shutdown Theater.

The video will no doubt be glorious but I can’t find any yet. For the time being, we’ll have to rely on Stars & Stripes reporter Leo Shane, who was on the scene when GOP Rep. Steve King distracted a park cop so that the vets could stream in.
They came to Washington to see the memorial, and damn it, they were going to see it.

That's just friggin hilarious. They spent MORE money and MORE manpower to try and close off the WWII memorial than it would take to simply leave it be like it normally would be. But the Vets were having NONE OF IT. And rightly so! Go greatest generation! 

I’m eager to know how it all came together. King was there, I assume, simply to accompany the Iowa vets, but it’s a brilliant bit of publicity to counter the left’s sky-is-falling spin on the shutdown. If the vets had been turned away, it would have become a media passion play about Republican obstructionism thwarting a tender moment among the “Greatest Generation.” As it is, Ace is right — it’s a lesson in the stupidity of shutdown theater, which started last night with the Statue of Liberty and no doubt would have turned to the WWII Memorial had the Honor Flight vets not scrambled the narrative. Turns out you can open an unstaffed national memorial to the public when the government is closed and not have anarchy break out. Who knew?
Exit question via Sonny Bunch: In terms of sheer stupidity, will anything top using websites for shutdown theater?

Oh I don't know. I'd say Piers Morgan in nuclear hissy-fit meltdown kinda tops it for sheer comedy value. 

Loved the opening tweet: 

Oh piers Morgan, take it down a few notches. Statue of Liberty closing to tourists does not equal freedom's death.

And here's an "exit question" of my own - 

Who actually visits the Statue of Liberty at midnight when it's closed ANYWAY? 

Drama queens from CNN and democrats trying to invoke political theater, that's who. (But I repeat myself)
Update: Both ABC and WaPo have picked up the story. Money quote from the latter:

Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said he believed the Park Service opened the gates. Rep Bill Huizenga (R-Mich.) said the congressmen did it. Rep. Steven M. Palazzo (R-Miss.) said the barricades just seemed to part.
“I’m not going to enforce the ‘no stopping or standing’ sign for a group of 90 World War II veterans,” said a U.S. Park Police officer, who declined to give his name. “I’m a veteran myself.”…
“It’s the best civil disobedience we’ve seen in Washington for a long time,” Huizenga told the veterans.

[Dartz]

US Politics has long left the realm of effective governance and entered the realm of theatre...

Allow me to be the latest to say the rest of the world things it's just plain lunacy. The definition of 'compromise' seems very much along the lines of offering a man a banana in exchange for his house and threatening to cut the power, water and telephone off if he doesn't agree.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Rajvik]

Unfortunately Dartz, the liberals have thought that the definition of compromise means doing what they want instead of what the conservatives want. Granted the conservatives havent been much better over the last 25 years as i remember it, but they at least have offered in some instances, including the current one
 

[robkelk]

If the conservatives are really willing to compromise, why haven't they sent a budget bill that doesn't include any riders about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act to the Senate?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Unfortunately Dartz, the liberals have thought that the definition of compromise means doing what they want instead of what the conservatives want. Granted the conservatives havent been much better over the last 25 years as i remember it, but they at least have offered in some instances, including the current one

Offering something you know the other side won't accept does not count as an 'offer', it's merely more theatre to allow them to say they offered.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Rajvik]

because they are riding on the fact that only 39% of the population think its a good idea, their constituancy wants it dead and they know they wont get re-elected if it is allowed to go through unmolested. The other thing is that in the last CR they only asked that it be delayed a year like Obama has through fiat for the employer mandate and exemptions for the unions.

They promised to try to defund it, they've done that, they have decided to hold the line at delay, that will get them re-elected because even though the liberal media will spin this as the greatest travesty in our nations history, if the Republicans have the Cajones to hold them on this point for a couple of months then the public will be able to see that all the doom and gloom that the media is spinning is bull and finally hold the Senate responsible
 

[robkelk]

The Senate has told then "no" 40 times already. You do know what's defined as doing the same thing repeatedly in hopes of getting a different result, don't you?

They tried to get rid of it altogether. They got a delay instead. There's been a compromise. It's time to move on.

And, yes, I do have a stake in this. The USA is Canada's largest trading partner - if your economy suffers because of this, then so does ours. This is not merely an internal squabble.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

What makes it silly - and what I'm trying to find - is the video where the majority of people say they aren't in favour of 'Obamacare', but have no problem with the Affordable Care act. I can't find it anymore, which is annoying....

I wouldn't say it's been passed unmolested either. There's a point however where you have to stop fighting..... and it's one house against two in that regard, facing a president who was elected by people who wanted the ACA to happen. Arguably both can say they have the popular mandate in that regards.

Telling is the fact that the president was elected after the act was passed - suggesting voters were pleased. And getting the act passed was already a compromise.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

because they are riding on the fact that only 39% of the population think its a good idea, ...

Replace "National Service" (what they called conscription in the UK) with "mandatory health care", and adjust the questions to match.

So... What's your source for that "39%" figure?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012