Going over the Cliff

[Bob Schroeck]

Norway, same warning I gave Logan. Ranting -- up to a point -- is okay. Start slinging personal attacks because someone doesn't kowtow to your ideology or worldview, well, I'll start by locking the thread.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Logan Darklighter wrote:

---

But just so you know who to blame - look straight up the mall at the White House. President Pissypants is the one laying down the direct orders to ruin your day.

Please stop that. While I do feel strongly about all this, tossing out crude insults about the POTUS isn't going to help matters.

Besides, I personally hold the collective Tea Party to be responsible. Anyone that thinks that this is good medicine for our country is either out of their mind or despises the USA.

And shit is starting to get real. The stock market is reflecting this. I'm sorry this happened, but if anything this should be a sign: This is not the time to go on with our lives as usual. Our country is being held hostage by a vocal minority ideology that has forgotten that it is a minority.

It is time to let the matter go and move on. We need to start contacting our reps to demand an immediate vote.

[kentmagus]

Here's what I see.

Tea Party says they plan to shut down government if Obamacare isn't defunded.

“We felt very strongly at the start of this year that the House needed to use the power of the purse,” said one coalition member, Michael A. Needham, who runs Heritage Action for America, the political arm of the Heritage Foundation. “At least at Heritage Action, we felt very strongly from the start that this was a fight that we were going to pick.”

-New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... wanted=all

Obamacare isn't defunded.

Republicans shut down government

“This is exactly what the public wants,” Representative Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, founder of the House Tea Party Caucus, said on the eve of the shutdown.)

-New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a- ... wanted=all

“We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.”

-Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

After Republican Party is plummeting in polls, even Fox News polls, Republicans claim Democrats shut down government.

What.

“You can re-litigate these policy issues in a political forum, but we shouldn’t use threats of causing the U.S. to fail on its obligations to repay its debt as a cudgel.”Lloyd Blankfein, chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs. Part of the Chamber of Commerce.

-Washington Post
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -s-chamber

When Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., was asked if he had heard business groups express fears of a government shutdown’s economic impact, he replied: “No. And it wouldn’t make any difference if I did.”

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -s-chamber

-Washington Post

When the Koch brothers distance themselves from the Tea Party(by delivering letters to members of the Senate saying they didn't encourage the shutdown),

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Secti ... 100913.pdf

and the Chamber of Commerce is planning to run anti-Tea Party candidates, I mean, "protecting friendly conservative lawmakers from challengers"

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -s-chamber

I don't think the Democrats are the problem.

[Bob Schroeck]

blackaeronaut wrote:

---

Logan Darklighter wrote:

---

But just so you know who to blame - look straight up the mall at the White House. President Pissypants is the one laying down the direct orders to ruin your day.

Please stop that. While I do feel strongly about all this, tossing out crude insults about the POTUS isn't going to help matters.

Seconded, with strong hints of admin leaning.  After all, Logan, it was you who went ballistic when I once referred to GW Bush as "The Shrub", which was and is considerably less insulting than your epithet.  Sauce for the goose and all that -- respect the office, even if you can't respect the man.  At least I acknowledged that Bush was, as much as I disagreed with him and them, sincerely standing by his convictions as opposed to being Deliberately Eevul and Eating Puppies.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Bob Schroeck]

After Republican Party is plummeting in polls, even Fox News polls, Republicans claim Democrats shut down government.

What.

It's the same old game that's been played in politics for centuries: "The idea that works is mine. The idea that doesn't is the other guy's. Regardless of who originally came up with it."
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[ECSNorway]

ordnance11 wrote:

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But is he an economist? So far, I haven't heard of any economist telling us that a default won't have serious consequences. Besides, the treasury department stated that they hit the debt limit last May. October 17 is when extraordinary measures are no longer going to be enough.

Ord, what the post you're replying to is saying is that it is a violation of the US Constitution to default on the national debt. We are specifically prohibited from failing to service the debt, therefore, we will have to divert money from the all-holy vote-buying programs in order to continue to do so.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[khagler]

I agree that the whole "not being able to borrow endlessly is the same as default" argument is ludicrous, but at the same time let's not forget that something being a violation of the US Constitution is, on the whole, a pretty good indicator that the Feds will do it.

[robkelk]

I think we're talking past each other now, rather than talking to each other.

Dropping out of the thread.

Being in government does not magically make one more concerned for one's fellow man.

It does not magically make one less concerned for one's fellow man, either.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Because rampant austerity works?

Lets ask Spain? OR Greece? Or howabout I look out a bloody window....
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Foxboy]

Okay. Let's say one of our cuts is the foreign aid. A much bigger chunk than Mom and Dad's Social security or even the damn bit of legislation that the whole debacle is about.

What happens globally when we cut that aid? Or if China and Russia dive right in after we leave?

Or if we navel gaze like some want us to? "Hey, you got some nice stuff. I'mma gonna come and soften you up with nukes and chemical weapons then TAKE it. Try shooting me when you can't breathe!"
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[RMH999]

FYI

Foreign Aid for 2011: $49 Billion (~1.5% of the US budget)
Social Security for 2012: $768 Billion (22% of the US budget)

Big difference - people massively overestimate of how much we spend on Foreign Aid.
*numbers from wikipedia
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
- Albert Einstein

[ECSNorway]

I've heard several prominent African economists say openly that the best thing we could do for their countries is to stop sending them aid money. Because 99% of it just goes into propping up dictators and lining their pockets, one way or another, or keeping people from being self-sufficient and maintaining their dependency on those dictators.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Bob Schroeck]

There's no small amount of truth in that, Norway. The US has a pretty sad track record of backing the bad horse to keep the worse horse out of power, and as a side effect getting the best horse shot.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[nemonowan]

Aid in general is unlikely to stop, because no matter who receives it, it tends to already be earmarked for purchasing supplies/products from american corporations.
It is basically used as another form of corporate welfare. 

[ECSNorway]

Bob Schroeck wrote:

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There's no small amount of truth in that, Norway. The US has a pretty sad track record of backing the bad horse to keep the worse horse out of power, and as a side effect getting the best horse shot.

It's not even so much that, as the longer we keep sending them aid, the less impetus they have to, y'know, actually build a functioning economy, which is what the aid was supposed to be used -for-. If they know they can depend on us to keep sending them free stuff, why should they bother actually working to make their own?
A lot of those countries, for example, have trouble feeding themselves. Some could build a pretty good farm economy if they tried. But why bother, when the Yanks will just keep sending shiploads of grain and such?
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[ordnance11]

Politics does make strange bedfellows
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Rajvik]

i can name four things right now off the top of my head that granted are drops in the fiscal bucket, but if we stopped them RIGHT NOW would help and i think cover the "Debt Interest Payment"

1. End the "Quatitative Easing" the government is buying stock to float the stock market and keep the market up. I've already taken a bath in the market when GM declared bankruptcy and the government bailed them out.
2. REA-The Rural Electric Association was founded during Roosevelts New Deal and is now effectively useless and a money sink
3. Foreign Aid- As someone else stated earlier, its a drop in the bucket, but its a large drop all that money in the government would help if it wasnt spent buying the appreciation of other nations. Face it, its bribes so that they will listen to us when half of them dont anyway.
4. Make the damn equipment producers accept the payment they bid. The government, especially the Five sided puzzle palace (you know it as the Pentagon) is really bad about when there is a "Cost Overrun" they just throw money at the problem until its "Solved" and doesnt worry about the accounting. I can't pull the bid for the F-35 JSF right now but the cost over runs on it are enormous, has been for every piece of military equipment designed and made in the last 60 years or more. What i can note is that the Obamacare website that was supposed to cost 93 million dollars to setup and it run, has cost over 600million and still cant handle the traffic. Thats over 500 million dollars that the government has just thrown away. MAKE THEM STICK TO THEIR BIDS
 

[Dartz]

1: It lubricates the econonomy. And lowering the value of the US dollar means the US effectively turns a profit on every bond it issues.

2: You'd be surprised. Rural electrification and stability of grid supply remain important for local economic stability. Especially in the decentralised power grids renewables will create.

3: Bribery works. Everyone does it in some way

4: This. So much this. I know how it works over here because I've been in it for a state owned company. A US supplier massively lowballed everyone and tagged each and every specification we asked for - and only each and every specification. Under American Government Spending rules, we'd have had to buy from them - after getting approval all the way up the chain to ensure no government money is being frivolously wasted. Under our spending rules, we were able to use our discretion, look for hidden gotcha's in the contract they offered and decide that what they were offering with stick us with dozens of expensive issues down the road. We ended up splitting the contract - overspending slightly on our budget but getting a much better product with less overheads going forward into the futre

At the end of the year, the statutory company I worked for returned a profit to the exchequer and exceeded its reliability and quality targets.

On the other hand, it's well known that this is exactly how the Anglo debacle happened. It's easier to ask for a billion 12 times, than it is to ask for 10 billion straight up.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[ordnance11]

Dartz wrote:

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3: Bribery works. Everyone does it in some way

Ah, good old |"honest" graft. Lol. I am beginning to miss those days.
Okay, got word from the office. Assuming Ted Cruz does not decide at the last minute  pull another filibuster (I turned on to CNN, there was Senator Cruz, and I switched to another channel), they expect us back to work tomorrow.
The question I have is whether we are going to be to the same boat by Jan 15? Ugh. I would say no, but since the Senator from Texas shows no sign of contrition, I'd say wait and see.
 
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Black Aeronaut]

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that more wasn't made of his being born in Canada when his election was going. (And to a father who wasn't a citizen of the USA or Canada to boot.)

[ordnance11]

So where is Donald Trump when you need him? *grin* I mean fair is fair. The birthers had been lambasting the president for being a secret Muslim. They should be lambasting the Senator from Texas of being a secret Commie. That or being a secret Canuck.
Edit: It looks like the GOP is trying to to place some very heavy spin for the next go around.

Within hours, Gowdy and Issa would join their fellow House
Republicans for a short meeting. House Speaker John Boehner would admit
defeat. But some Republicans were declaring a victory of sorts—maybe not
now, but down the road—for what the media had already judged to be a
historic debacle. They had revealed President Obama to be a cynical
political operator. They had proved to voters that they did everything
they could to stop Obamacare. When the next spending fight comes around,
they insisted that enduring this shutdown would strengthen their
position.





“It depends on whether or not we’re able to articulate why we did
what we did,” said South Carolina Rep. Mick Mulvaney, a conservative who
voted against Boehner for speaker but sings hosannas for him now. “We
believe we did it for the right reasons. We believe it was good policy.
We believe good policy makes good politics. But we have to be able to
explain that policy in order to accomplish it. I did an interview with a
local radio station back home a week ago, and it started with them
saying it was ‘just seven days until default.’ That was an indication
that our message was not getting out.”





Human beings have been putting their best spin on defeats since the
invention of “winning” and “losing.” Obviously, the many Republicans who
don’t want to trash their colleagues on the record are going to look
for the Alamo underneath the rubble of this loss. But this shutdown had
meant a lot to the party. Only a few dozen current members of the GOP
conference had endured the last shutdown in 1995–1996. Those who
hadn’t—and some of those who had—have insisted for years that it was not
truly a defeat for the party. In his 1998 memoir, Newt Gingrich blamed the media for making that shutdown a “story of Republican heartlessness.” By 2010, when he reminisced about the shutdown, Gingrich argued that its real lesson
was that his GOP had held onto the House in 1996 and balanced the
budget—and that if the GOP shut down the government to stop Obamacare,
the country would rally to the cause.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... rites.html
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Dartz]

Wow, Just wow.....

Whether true or not, the idea is certainly unsettling.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Black Aeronaut]

Honestly, I'm not surprised.

[Morganite]

Wow, Just wow.....

Whether true or not, the idea is certainly unsettling.

Observe how in the attached picture, Cruz does not have a mustache, nor is he attempting to twirl one.

Or to put it another way, the phrase "Ted Cruz today gleefully admitted the federal government shutdown he started three weeks ago with his fake filibuster was really just a fundraising stunt."... That's a l*i*e!

He did, *maybe*, say it was something that *happened*. (The author of that article is making some non-obvious but reasonable inferences there.) But that it was "all about fundraising"? So, you think they never actually wanted to defund Obamacare? Am I supposed to believe that shit?

-Morgan. Also, that site is showing me "male gamers only" ads. WTF.

[Foxboy]

In re those ads: I would presume that it's a game that is extremely objectifying of women. Or he newest version of the "Evony" ad campaign.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll