Logan Darklighter Wrote:Frankly not sure if it's worth the time to go and find all the stuff - AGAIN - just to prove myself to someone who has decided to hold anything I say in contempt and not worth his time. Would you be convinced of anything?I'll be convinced by actual peer reviewed data or other evidence of that nature.
Quote:Tell you what - you're not going to believe anything ILogan, I'll break a truth to you here. We don't have a "side." Richard Muller is actually something of a skeptic when it comes to climate change and has been for years (since 2004 at least, when he published his first paper critical of Mann's work) and has been in a running rivalry with Mann for years. Now, he agrees that the world is warming, but disagrees with certain factors and measurement types, particularly the use of tree ring data.
say. How about Berkeley professor Richard A. Muller? Here's a guy who
believes what you believe. That global warming is real. And HE is
disgusted with the "science" involved.
And that's what this entire thing comes down to. Tree ring data, you see, has been used as a proxy measurement for temperatures for decades. Ever since we developed functional temperature gauges we've also been observing tree rings and up until about the last fifty years the tree rings have been consitent with recorded temperatures. There has been a divergence in the last fifty years or so, however. Mann and people in his camp claim that this is a result of increased polution effecting tree growth. Muller has claimed that this means that tree rings as proxy data should not be used.
But the hilarious thing is that the tree ring data is relatively inconsequential to the actual facts of the case. If tree ring proxy data is used then we're in the warmest period for the last 700 years. If it isn't used, we're in the warmest period for the last 1300 years. The feedback mechanism of carbon-dioxide in the atmosphere is undeniable and has been know for almost a century now.
The argument here is whether Mann should have used the tree ring data for the last fifty years even though we know that data is wrong. We have mechanical measurement, and dozens of other confirming proxy methods, that confirm that the tree ring data has become unreliable in the last fifty years. The hilariously sad thing is that if we throw out the tree ring data entirely the case for global warming becomes better.
Quote:Is this guy liberal enough to be credible to you?It has nothing to do with Liberal/conservative. There are legitimate criticism of global warming out there, Muller among them. I can point you to them if you want.
Quote:As for specific sources. How about you go do the damn research yourself? Here's the ENTIRE archive of emails and data from Climategate.
Not a single thing taken out of context. Nothing held back. It's the
entire archive of material that broke the scandal in the first place. Go
for it. You're the one making a positive claim, you have to make your case. You'll have to do better than a youtube video. Perhaps a link to some peer reviewed papers by Muller disputing the facts would be better.
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Epsilon